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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
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November 17th, 2015 at 4:59:21 PM permalink
Quote: TheGrimReaper13

Reminds of an analogy about stopping over in a foreign country, and speaking with only ten people, all of whom are blond. Would it be right to conclude that everyone there is a blond? Same thing, except the latter seems a random occurrence. Unlike the popular members here who have the time, and make the effort, to meet their "hero". You're the Wizard's number-one fan. And I think you keep his "office" going. I get that.

All families that stick together go through thick and thin. I don't care if you're the Trumps, or the EB's. So, if you have designs on creating a WoV Utopia, I strongly suggest that you, "Just stop." Families don't "nuke" each other every time a member speaks up. Or continue to pose for the cameras in the privacy of their homes.



Is this an old folks home, or a gambling forum? If the Wizard has some gambling stories, let's hear 'em. Otherwise, like Mr V wrote, ("Lead, follow, or) get out of the way." The library is that way. Who knows, you might run into teliot.



I believe you misunderstood what I'm saying. I would prefer a forum where people can banter and be humorous, have their occasional misunderstandings, and move on. This forum, and maybe most others, swing on a pendulum of tone. Right now, this one has a lot of petty feuds and umbrage. That seems to need more moderation than a Utopian ideal, where people can disagree without being disagreeable about it, have vigorous and challenging discussions, and not take things so personally.

I'm not really asking for people to be "nice", I'm asking for them to respect each other's rights to have an opinion, to criticize the post and not the poster, to do whatever cliché you like that doesn't devolve into trolling, ad hominem attacks, and goading each other. Maybe to enjoy each other's company a little more, which includes personalities like EB's self-identified curmudgeon, Romes' perpetually sunny disposition, and your gloom and doom persona ("TheGrimReaper"), for a few examples. Doesn't seem too hard to me. Perhaps it's not in your wheelhouse.

I like what Mosca used to say: "You start with respect; you earn disrespect." I figure people can roll their eyes, shake their heads, face-palm, curse what they see as stupidity, all in the privacy of real life, and still speak civilly to that same person on here. It doesn't take a lot of effort to indicate your superiority at someone else's expense; the worthwhile but more difficult effort is to enlighten and encourage instead.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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November 17th, 2015 at 7:17:03 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm not really asking for people to be "nice", I'm asking for them to respect each other's rights to have an opinion, to criticize the post and not the poster, to do whatever cliché you like that doesn't devolve into trolling, ad hominem attacks, and goading each other. .



You're asking men to not be men. We're
naturally competitive and this is how we
express it. Attacking and goading is what
we do, it's how we communicate. If you
listen to a group of men in a bar who all
know each other, it's mostly what they
do.

It's hard here, you really have to think
before you type. If you want to see male
egos on display, go to one of the non
moderated sports betting forums. It's all
name calling and personal insults and
it's no holds barred. You'll come away
thinking this is the calmest place on the
net.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Dodsferd
Dodsferd
Joined: Jun 10, 2015
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 375
November 17th, 2015 at 7:37:06 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You're asking men to not be men. We're
naturally competitive and this is how we
express it. Attacking and goading is what
we do, it's how we communicate. If you
listen to a group of men in a bar who all
know each other, it's mostly what they
do.

It's hard here, you really have to think
before you type. If you want to see male
egos on display, go to one of the non
moderated sports betting forums. It's all
name calling and personal insults and
it's no holds barred. You'll come away
thinking this is the calmest place on the
net.



Quote: EvenBob

You're asking men to not be dicks.


Fixed the quote for you.

If that's how you act, then that's your own personal choice. This is the 21st century, not prehistoric ages. "Attacking and goading" is not a form of communication, at least not civilized communication.

An off chute snide remark or playful jest is much different than the type of content that I believe BBB was getting at.

Edit:

Regarding competition, sure, men are competitive. I know I sure as hell am, and I know I can be mean and arrogant as well. Doesn't mean I have to treat anyone else with any less respect. I can maintain a competitive nature and still keep my ego and arrogance high while being civil. There is no reason to result to degrading remarks.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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November 17th, 2015 at 7:51:21 PM permalink
Quote: Dodsferd

Fixed the quote for you.

If that's how you act, then that's your own personal choice. This is the 21st century, not prehistoric ages. "Attacking and goading" is not a form of communication, at least not civilized communication.



You're exactly proving my point. You're
correcting me, changing what I said,
because you think your viewpoint
is more important than mine. It's
what men do.

You never see this on a women's
forum. They would rather die than
tell another woman she's wrong
and correct her. Doing that for men
comes naturally, it's what we do.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Dodsferd
Dodsferd
Joined: Jun 10, 2015
  • Threads: 1
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November 17th, 2015 at 8:01:34 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You're exactly proving my point. You're
correcting me, changing what I said,
because you think your viewpoint
is more important than mine. It's
what men do.

You never see this on a women's
forum. They would rather die than
tell another woman she's wrong
and correct her. Doing that for men
comes naturally, it's what we do.



Except I'm neither attacking or goading you. Unless I am mistaken, the whole point was to direct attention to the attacks on character and snide remarks being made. That's what I was attempting to convey.

You're right, this is absolutely a trait found more often in males. I won't deny that at all; it's far more common for a man to be direct or abrupt when it comes to conveying information. I'd rather be direct and to the point than to beat around a bush.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
  • Threads: 173
  • Posts: 10372
November 17th, 2015 at 8:15:02 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You never see this on a women's
forum. They would rather die than
tell another woman she's wrong
and correct her.



I had an ex-girlfriend who had a shouting match with another woman; the woman died later that evening of a heart attack. I still think it was the stress. They were definitely telling each other what to do and where to go.
Everything is in high definition today except Bigfoot and UFOs
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 434
  • Posts: 25333
November 17th, 2015 at 8:19:47 PM permalink
Quote: Dodsferd

Except I'm neither attacking or goading you..



You're not insulting me directly, but you
are attacking me by correcting me and
putting me in my place. A woman, on
the other hand, would never do this
because it would be perceived as a
direct and vicious attack on her as
a person, that you would dare to
correct her in front of other people.

In another time what you said and
how you said it would have forced
me to challenge you is some way
so I could retrieve my honor. They
were a lot touchier in those days.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Dodsferd
Dodsferd
Joined: Jun 10, 2015
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 375
November 17th, 2015 at 8:29:12 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You're not insulting me directly, but you
are attacking me by correcting me and
putting me in my place.


I'm offering my point of view and my perception of the conversation at hand. What you say and believe is your own right, as is mine. My interjections are an effort to provide substance to the conversation, as is, your own I would imagine.

If a professor corrected a a mistake by a student, is that attacking? When a parent corrects the behaviour of their child, is that attacking?

Quote: EvenBob


In another time what you said and
how you said it would have forced
me to challenge you is some way
so I could retrieve my honor. They
were a lot touchier in those days.



If your honor has been attacked in any way, shape, or form, then sure, it could certainly be perceived as an attack on you or your character. Perception has a huge role to play in this, but so does the message being sent.

That's a large contributing factor here. If I were to say "Go **** yourself" to someone, it's hard to take that with any positive connotations. "You're wrong, I disagree" could go either way, yet still convey the same message. Is one more respectful than the other? Absolutely.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 434
  • Posts: 25333
November 17th, 2015 at 8:38:35 PM permalink
Quote: Dodsferd


If a professor corrected a a mistake by a student, is that attacking? When a parent corrects the behaviour of their child, is that attacking?.



Teachers and parents have a position of
authority over students and kids, they
can correct them without repercussions.

You have no such authority over me. If
you did it in public the way you did it
here, I certainly would consider it an
attack on my character and give it back
to you accordingly. But the internet
has a wider leeway when such things
happen. It's not real, it's cyberspace,
we can't be expected to act in the same
way.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Dodsferd
Dodsferd
Joined: Jun 10, 2015
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 375
November 17th, 2015 at 8:52:21 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Teachers and parents have a position of
authority over students and kids, they
can correct them without repercussions.



True, though what are your thoughts about professional or personal circumstances? When my co-workers or I critique work conducted by others, it's not on the basis of attacking one another. We're redirecting efforts in an attempt to further our department and company as a whole.

When someone is in need of advice or help, whether voluntary or not, is it attacking? If you sit someone down whose an alcoholic and have an intervention, is it attacking?

I'm not trying to nitpick here, but I seem to be getting a correlation between "attacking" and "conflict" from you. What I'm trying to convey, is you can disagree with someone or have an entirely different point of view, without going overboard with comments or gestures. That in itself is a defining difference to me.

Quote: EvenBob


You have no such authority over me. If
you did it in public the way you did it
here, I certainly would consider it an
attack on my character and give it back
to you accordingly.



You're right, I don't have authority over you, nor do you over me. The basis for my interjections to this conversation is on mutual level that we both approach when logging in to a public forum such as this.

If you take what I'm saying to be an attack, then I would daresay it is in the perception that you have of the message I am sending. Were I to slander you, then I would agree that an attack is being made. As I stated above, there is a difference between an attack and a debate. If you are observing this as an attack, then there is an inherent difference in the way you and I are seeing this conversation, as I see a debate.

Quote: EvenBob


But the internet
has a wider leeway when such things
happen. It's not real, it's cyberspace,
we can't be expected to act in the same
way.



This is actually an interesting point. What do you define as real? In today's society, cyberspace has nearly the same merit as the physical world we inhabit. If you define reality as the physical interaction that you are able to experience, then yes, cyberspace is not real.... Yet.

Yet physical interaction is merely a manipulation of our human senses, as translated into electrical impulses to our brain, and on that basis, what is the difference? What we see and hear are translated the same way. One could argue that cyberspace is just as real as the keyboard used to type this message, at least to our brains.

That is probably a topic for another matter though, as I feel that this is just getting off topic.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

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