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Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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January 26th, 2018 at 10:03:13 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888


These are good points with which I agree. It is very difficult to come up with a single quantitative metric that might reflect the effect of permanent bans and suspensions on the forum. Here are a few subjective observations:
- Your most prolific poster, EvenBob, now posts on a different forum -his stated reason for not posting here is that he doesn't like the moderation at this site
- I consistently find interesting old threads by searching on the names of people who are on your suspension lists. I wish that some of those people (but not all) were active today.



It is difficult. The only thing I know, and this is one of the rare events where I feel like I can speak for the site, is that Iíve seen unmoderated places and most of them are garbage. Even some of the ones that do well on traffic. A great example, while not a forum, is to look at YouTube comments.

The bread and butter is we focus on gambling and the current assemblage here combines to know a ton about gambling and to have strong discourse on the subject. Honestly, I think we would rather have twenty posters who know a ton about gambling and discuss it in a rational and educated way than 1,000 active members who donít. Best 1,000 active members who do, obviously, but again, niche. Iím a pretty significant decrease from Wizard-level knowledge, but I strongly believe I know more about gambling than 99.9% of the general population.

EvenBob does what EvenBob wants to do. The site in question is owned by the former owner of this site who is still, at the end of the day, in charge of the Administration of this site. To wit, Wizard could revoke Admin status from anyone of us at any time he wants.

I agree with that. Some of the people, and everything is a collaboration at the end of the day, we have felt the need to ban have been very unfortunate. There are certainly many people with a ton of gambling knowledge who are not currently welcome to post here.

For some of them, it was just a matter of not being able to justify bending the rules and further or with any greater frequency. Was I biased in favor of keeping MickeyCrimm around? Abso-freaking-lutely...your general discussion type person would have been gone months before him. With some people, though, it just hits a certain point where you ask yourself, ďAm I just not going to enforce the rules AT ALL on this guy?Ē

For others, it was just interpersonal difference. Letís not lie: Some of them royally ticked Wizard off. So what? If I own a restaurant and you donít like the food and complain, fine, Iíll work on it. If you eat the food and complain about it everyday, Iíll suggest to you there are other restaurants. If you come into the restaurant JUST to complain about the food and donít even order anything, itís not going to take long before I demand you not come back. If you directly insult me, youíre gone immediately.

I worked at a hotel I didnít even own and wouldnít put up with any of that kind of crap. Wizard has taken more written abuse on here and let it slide, in some cases, than I would ever take verbal abuse at the hotel.
Vultures can't be choosers.
gordonm888
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
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January 26th, 2018 at 10:23:15 AM permalink
Quote: Homelessnyc



It's amazing how full of yourself you are. You enjoy being wrongfully condescending to people who disagree with your ill thought opinions?




Quote: Wizard

Personal insult. As your third offense since July, let's make it another two weeks. You are invited to not return at all.



1. Definition of "Full of yourself" is:
very self-satisfied and with an exaggerated sense of self-worth.

That comment, imo, was a criticism on the tone and content of the post that he quotes in his post. Because you have isolated the comment from the posted quotation that he was referring to, you have subtly changed its apparent meaning and made it seem as if it was directed at a person, rather than at a post.

Quote: Wizard

. . . You are invited to not return at all.


First, I enjoy homelessnyc's posts and I personally hope that he does return.

Second, this comment of yours seems to be intended to be hurtful (especially coming from someone of your stature) and has the tone of anger. This seems to be an example of the kind of thing that people are objecting to : the display of emotions by the moderators as they "discipline" the forum members, which creates a basis for people hypothesizing that the specifics of the suspension decision were influenced by whether the moderator likes or dislikes the forum member.

Third, on a thread where some have been lamenting the decline of participation in the forum and claiming that the moderation style is part of the problem, you jump in and tell a forum member "You are invited to not return at all." What are we supposed to think?

It really sounds as if you personally don't enjoy the forums and being a moderator here.
Dalex64
Dalex64
Joined: Feb 10, 2013
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January 26th, 2018 at 10:44:12 AM permalink
Next, look up the definition of self-immolation.
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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January 26th, 2018 at 11:09:12 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888


That comment, imo, was a criticism on the tone and content of the post that he quotes in his post. Because you have isolated the comment from the posted quotation that he was referring to, you have subtly changed its apparent meaning and made it seem as if it was directed at a person, rather than at a post.



Wizard may be along to answer for himself, if he chooses, so please donít take this as me answering for him.

Given his history, I would read the statement as a personal insult, too. How can you say someone is, ďFull of yourself,Ē rather than, ďYou sound like youíre full of yourself in this post.Ē One is an insult, the other isnít. In one, youíre telling a person he/she is full of himself/herself, in the other youíre not.

Looks pretty clear to me.

Maybe you let someone with no previous bans slide with an open warning, but heís not someone with no previous bans.

Quote:



Second, this comment of yours seems to be intended to be hurtful (especially coming from someone of your stature) and has the tone of anger. This seems to be an example of the kind of thing that people are objecting to : the display of emotions by the moderators as they "discipline" the forum members, which creates a basis for people hypothesizing that the specifics of the suspension decision were influenced by whether the moderator likes or dislikes the forum member.



Given that he just called someone full of himself, Iíd be very surprised if HINY is hurt by Wizardís posts. I imagine heíll tell us if he was.

I canít speak to your perception of the tone of the post because it is your perception. I canít speak as to whether or not Wizard was angry when he wrote it because Iím not the Wizard. In terms of a word like, ďAnger,Ē I donít know that Iíve ever personally known the Wizard to be angry about anything.

Quote:

Third, on a thread where some have been lamenting the decline of participation in the forum and claiming that the moderation style is part of the problem, you jump in and tell a forum member "You are invited to not return at all." What are we supposed to think?

It really sounds as if you personally don't enjoy the forums and being a moderator here.



HYC is invited not to return at all, thatís what everyone is supposed to think. Wizard would be fine with it if he returns (implied) and would perhaps be even more fine with it if he doesnít return. Seems pretty obvious to me.

I canít answer for whether Wizard enjoys that stuff. I assume he does since he does it. I enjoy it, for whatever thatís worth.
Vultures can't be choosers.
gordonm888
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
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January 26th, 2018 at 12:39:32 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


HYC is invited not to return at all, thatís what everyone is supposed to think. Wizard would be fine with it if he returns (implied) and would perhaps be even more fine with it if he doesnít return. Seems pretty obvious to me.

I canít answer for whether Wizard enjoys that stuff. I assume he does since he does it. I enjoy it, for whatever thatís worth.



Apparently, Wizard did not feel that HYC's post merited a permanent ban. So,why did he not simply hand him a 2-week suspension? Instead, he went beyond that: he injected his personal disdain for HYC by then telling HYC that he was unwelcome - that he was "welcome to not return at all." That went beyond the role of administering the rules of the forum; there was no need to further injure and piss off HYC by telling him that he was unwelcome.

The contributing members of this forum are valuable assets to this forum. You have no content and no forum without the members! When HYC is treated with disdain and told he is unwelcome (for disturbing the peace by saying that someone is 'full of yourself', my God! ) it not only drives HYC away but it drives other people away from being part of this forum. In my opinion, telling HYC that he was unwelcome was inappropriate and a little bit ugly and objectionable.
RS
RS
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
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January 26th, 2018 at 12:53:07 PM permalink
Mission, don't kid yourself. Telling someone they are welcome to not return isn't like, "Well, technically, he can return if he wants to or not return, errmegurr". It's telling someone NOT to return. You can play your word games and technicalities, but it is what it is.

If I say, "Omg, ARE YOU STUPID?" do you think I'm asking a legitimate question, or do you think I'm calling you stupid?



But if EvenBob's perception of the admins is what's keeping him from posting here, then the admins are doing something right....and that's probably the most important thing, IMO.
нет сговор. нет непроходимость. полный освобождение от ответственности.
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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January 26th, 2018 at 12:55:26 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Apparently, Wizard did not feel that HYC's post merited a permanent ban. So,why did he not simply hand him a 2-week suspension? Instead, he went beyond that: he injected his personal disdain for HYC by then telling HYC that he was unwelcome - that he was "welcome to not return at all." That went beyond the role of administering the rules of the forum; there was no need to further injure and piss off HYC by telling him that he was unwelcome.



I imagine he didnít feel that way because his post doesnít merit a permanent ban. I canít imagine anyone would argue it does.

With that, you do have someone who has multiple bans within the last six months, I believe, for personal insult. One of which was graduated from three days to two weeks for multiple targets. I also read the tone of some of the posts as excessively adversarial, but thatís just my perception.

Again, I donít think heís injured. I am going to give HNY (HYC was an accident) credit for having a thicker skin than that. Quite frankly, I think heíll either return or wonít and is not particularly concerned with Wizardís opinion of his posts or the opinions of anyone else.

Also, look at this thread. Iíve been busy arguing with HNY that objective and provable facts are objective and provable facts and thatís not enough to get him to concede that his use of the word, ďNever,Ē was erroneous. Perhaps he would have, in fairness, I guess our conversation wasnít necessarily over yet.

Quote:

The contributing members of this forum are valuable assets to this forum. You have no content and no forum without the members! When HYC is treated with disdain and told he is unwelcome (for disturbing the peace by saying that someone is 'full of yourself', my God! ) it not only drives HYC away but it drives other people away from being part of this forum. In my opinion, telling HYC that he was unwelcome was inappropriate and a little bit ugly and objectionable.



They are until they are determined not to be. Ones who are Nuked have been determined not to be, in most cases, or at least the costs of them being here outweigh the benefits.

When someone is temporarily banned, that means we believe that they are not a net asset to the Forum the way they are currently conducting themselves. I would guess that Wizardís speculation is that the behavior of HNY that led to the current ban and Wizard saying what he said will continue. I have no personal opinion of whether or not it will continue.

We have a rule that is No Personal Insult. Not, ďNo Personal Insult except those that arenít that bad.Ē Wizard has determined there was a Personal Insult, and not that it matters, but I agree.

I do apologize that you found Wizardís statement objectionable. I imagine more than zero people will agree with you and that some people will not find it objectionable. I do not think it was, but could see where someone would, particularly if that someone disagrees with the underlying ban.
Last edited by: Mission146 on Jan 26, 2018
Vultures can't be choosers.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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January 26th, 2018 at 12:57:03 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Apparently, Wizard did not feel that HYC's post merited a permanent ban. So,why did he not simply hand him a 2-week suspension? Instead, he went beyond that: he injected his personal disdain for HYC by then telling HYC that he was unwelcome - that he was "welcome to not return at all." That went beyond the role of administering the rules of the forum; there was no need to further injure and piss off HYC by telling him that he was unwelcome.

The contributing members of this forum are valuable assets to this forum. You have no content and no forum without the members! When HYC is treated with disdain and told he is unwelcome (for disturbing the peace by saying that someone is 'full of yourself', my God! ) it not only drives HYC away but it drives other people away from being part of this forum. In my opinion, telling HYC that he was unwelcome was inappropriate and a little bit ugly and objectionable.



You sound just like the casino customers I have to ask to leave and sometimes even tell them there are other casino around if they don't like our rules.

Same silly answers. "I'm the customer". "Soon you'll have no customers." "I'm not bothering anyone." "I have a right to do what I want."

The business makes the rules. The customers can choose to follow them or not, to stay or go, to return or do business elsewhere. Crying about the rules or thw handling of them at the establishment , without them asking for your input does about as much good as throwing yourself to the ground and spinning around in circles.

As the old saying goes, you shop with your feet. Thats how business is done. Thats how business jusge whether what they are doing is working or not. Not by listening to a very small complaining minority.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
rsactuary
rsactuary
Joined: Sep 6, 2014
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January 26th, 2018 at 1:04:21 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

You sound just like the casino customers I have to ask to leave and sometimes even tell them there are other casino around if they don't like our rules.

Same silly answers. "I'm the customer". "Soon you'll have no customers." "I'm not bothering anyone." "I have a right to do what I want."

The business makes the rules. The customers can choose to follow them or not, to stay or go, to return or do business elsewhere. Crying about the rules or thw handling of them at the establishment , without them asking for your input does about as much good as throwing yourself to the ground and spinning around in circles.

As the old saying goes, you shop with your feet. Thats how business is done. Thats how business jusge whether what they are doing is working or not. Not by listening to a very small complaining minority.


ZCore13



Totally agree with this post.

To really understand the ban for HNY, you need to read his whole body of work. I suspect the Wiz's decision was based on that, not just on the "full of yourself" comment. If you read the whole body of his posts, you'll realize he has an anger problem that he needs to deal with.
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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January 26th, 2018 at 1:21:21 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Mission, don't kid yourself. Telling someone they are welcome to not return isn't like, "Well, technically, he can return if he wants to or not return, errmegurr". It's telling someone NOT to return. You can play your word games and technicalities, but it is what it is.



I disagree because weíd just Nuke him. Thatís how we tell people not to return. Iím not going to mince words, the verbiage would suggest that Wizard would prefer if he, of his own volition, does not return.

Quote:

If I say, "Omg, ARE YOU STUPID?" do you think I'm asking a legitimate question, or do you think I'm calling you stupid?



I agree with that. But thatís not in the context of any official action.
Vultures can't be choosers.

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