billryan
billryan
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September 3rd, 2021 at 9:55:44 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I didn't realize that Avon was considered a MLM. I remember my mother buying Avon from a friend but she never was involved with it.

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    I think it was one of the original MLMs.
    100xOdds
    100xOdds
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    September 3rd, 2021 at 10:33:38 AM permalink
    mission,
    link to mlm article?
    Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
    Mission146
    Mission146
    Joined: May 15, 2012
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    September 3rd, 2021 at 10:38:39 AM permalink
    Quote: MDawg

    Yes, Herbalife's no questions asked refund policy for end users is, I understand, part of the reason why they (1) avoided regulatory action, but also (2) why Herbalife distributors started making a lot less money. I suppose that if they have an additional policy about distributors being able to return unopened merchandise, that helps too - but, if the end buyer opens the product, uses it, doesn't lose weight and then is entitled to a refund, where does that leave the distributor, who ends up with returned, opened product? Is the distributor entitled to a refund from Herbalife for the opened product that he was forced to refund to the end user?



    I don't know the answer to that, but I can answer for how that worked in the furniture store, which was a legitimate commissioned job that also came with an hourly pay.

    Basically, the company would take any returns (or cancellations) and the commission that you made on those sales would come off of the commissions for whatever pay period you were in. I didn't want to get too far in the weeds, but that's another reason that I focused on mattresses---the deliveries were usually handled on time (and within a few days!), the product almost never arrived with any damages and almost nobody ever wanted to return it.

    The big problem that we had with wood and upholstery was that garbage was coming from China and whether or not it would arrive with some sort of damage (or, really, how closely the customer would scrutinize it in the first seven days) was a complete coin flip. Secondly, most of the garbage was backordered to death and we basically KNEW that they weren't getting it when we told them (and the computers told us) that they were. I actually lost a few sales (deliberately), or alternatively, sold lower priced tables and buffets in October because the customers were hosting Thanksgiving and wanted to make absolutely sure they had these nice pieces for their families to see.

    There's no way I was going to guarantee delivery by the date the system was guaranteeing it to us...because I knew that wasn't happening 80% of the time...so I would try to save some kind of sale by talking them into something in stock. If they didn't like the pieces that were in stock, then I basically did everything to hint (without actually saying it---because I would be fired) that the item wasn't coming by the date in our system, and even if it did, the first one they got would almost certainly be damaged. This company would actually hold damaged in warehouse and try to re-deliver it to a different customer (often more than once) before it would finally hit one of the outlet stores to be sold at a discount.

    Anyway, if anything ended up returned or cancelled, then the commissions earned (and already paid) for the item would come off of your commissions for the current pay period. The only saving grace was that it had to be THAT pay period, so they couldn't keep carrying it over until it was made up.***

    What we would usually do is try to set it up with each other so that you'd, "Hang onto," all of your cancellations/returns and put them in the system in the beginning of one pay period. For that pay period, you would sell absolutely nothing on your own account, usually splitting the sales (or helping one guy exclusively) selling under his associate number. When he got paid, he'd pay you half of the commissions that you had earned and then you'd do the same for him when he, "Hung onto," returns and cancellations and did the other sales on your associate number.

    You're also probably going to tank for a month doing it this way and come in the bottom two for that month, so you had to be careful. Of course, you knew you weren't going to be in the bottom two for the month when it came time for him to sell on your associate number.

    Anyway, I imagine it works the same way with Herbalife...except you don't actually get paid an hourly, or anything. I can't say for sure, but I imagine that you lose the commissions and get an invoice that is actually a bill that you have to pay...unless your commissions on new sales for whatever period already covered it.

    Quote:

    I am not sure, but I thought that Herbalife became less and less popular with the general American public and more and more popular with the Spanish speaking segment?



    Um...I think that's true. I know there was one MLM that was very popular with the Hispanic community, but I don't recall if it was that one.

    Quote:

    As far as the guy who was shut down, he worked for a water filtration multilevel company first, and then started off selling his own water filters, but later expanded to selling about everything. He was on track to be one of the fastest growing companies in the U.S. before he was shut down completely around 2000. Being accused of front loading is the MLM equivalent of being accused of a ponzi scam.



    Ha! Was that the one with the water filters that were actually actively adding bacteria to the water if they were installed without being properly cleaned first?

    Quote:

    You know how every now and then in town one of these ponzi scams starts up where people put in money and just need to find enough investors to cash out and move on? If you look closely, MLM isn't all that different from such schemes, except that actual product is involved for sale. With MLM for every person who makes money a dozen have lost and supported the winner's downstream, by buying product that never sold, thereby sending money upstream. And as well, MLM sellers aren't just looking for end user buyers, they are hoping that the end user buyers will convert to sellers, sold on the idea that the product is great and they will make money buying it at a discount and re-selling it.



    That's all correct and covered in my article...the only difference between some (most?) of them and the legal definition of, "Pyramid scheme," is that there is an actual product or service that is, at least in theory, being sold to retail consumers.

    I think someone did end up with boxes and boxes of useless and expired water filters in the garage. Maybe it was that one. I know of some Chinese MLM where people ended up with boxes and boxes of ants!

    Quote:

    See here's the thing - unless you buy into that whatever the MLM is selling is somehow "unique" (it isn't), no matter how much of a discount you get on the item it will never sell for less than you would be able to find the identical or near identical item at some direct sale, non MLM source.



    I agree completely and covered that in my article. I might have cherry-picked, but I used one of Avon's more expensive makeup products as an example.

    Quote:

    But again, if you have the energy to proselytize and are able to sleep at night knowing you are fleecing the general public, MLMs are huge money makers for those on top. But MLM participants don't make the real money from simply selling product to end users - they need converts, to buy lots of product and try to sell under them, as part of their downstream.

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    I agree 100% and covered that.

    ***ADDED---Also, they couldn't touch your hourly under any circumstance.
    https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
    Mission146
    Mission146
    Joined: May 15, 2012
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    September 3rd, 2021 at 10:39:45 AM permalink
    Quote: DRich

    I didn't realize that Avon was considered a MLM. I remember my mother buying Avon from a friend but she never was involved with it.

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    Big time MLM! Second-largest (only to Amway) by revenue, for US-based MLM's, I believe.
    https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
    Mission146
    Mission146
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    September 3rd, 2021 at 10:41:03 AM permalink
    Quote: billryan

    The show "On becoming a God in South Florida" revolves around an imaginary MLM line.

    On Becoming a God in Central Florida. This dark comedy series stars Kirsten Dunst as Krystal Stubbs, a minimum-wage water park employee who lies, schemes and cons her way up the ranks of the cultish, multibillion-dollar pyramid scheme that drove her family to ruin in the first place.

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    Thanks! I might look for that one day. I used to have a crush on Kirsten Dunst (she's slightly older than me) when I was a kid.
    https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
    Mission146
    Mission146
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    September 3rd, 2021 at 10:42:05 AM permalink
    Quote: 100xOdds

    mission,
    link to mlm article?

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    Haha!!! Oops. Thanks! I also added it to my original post.

    https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/the-mlm-gamble/
    https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
    billryan
    billryan
    Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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    September 3rd, 2021 at 11:03:40 AM permalink
    Quote: Mission146

    Quote: billryan

    The show "On becoming a God in South Florida" revolves around an imaginary MLM line.

    On Becoming a God in Central Florida. This dark comedy series stars Kirsten Dunst as Krystal Stubbs, a minimum-wage water park employee who lies, schemes and cons her way up the ranks of the cultish, multibillion-dollar pyramid scheme that drove her family to ruin in the first place.

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    Thanks! I might look for that one day. I used to have a crush on Kirsten Dunst (she's slightly older than me) when I was a kid.
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    It's a fun show.
    100xOdds
    100xOdds
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    Thanks for this post from:
    odiousgambitMission146
    September 6th, 2021 at 3:53:36 AM permalink
    Quote: Mission146

    Quote: 100xOdds

    mission,
    link to mlm article?

  • link to original post



    Haha!!! Oops. Thanks! I also added it to my original post.

    https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/the-mlm-gamble/
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    regarding you paying company when you start the job:
    insurance salesman

    you pay the company to send you to training.

    yeah, it's as scammy as mlm.
    yes, there are successful people but the vast majority dont make it just like in mlm
    Last edited by: 100xOdds on Sep 6, 2021
    Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
    Mission146
    Mission146
    Joined: May 15, 2012
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    September 6th, 2021 at 8:37:47 AM permalink
    Thanks for the example; I didnít know that. There is actually an insurance MLM; I wonder what the difference is? Downline, I guess.
    https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
    billryan
    billryan
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    Thanks for this post from:
    Mission146
    September 6th, 2021 at 9:02:10 AM permalink
    When I opened my first comic store, I had no retail experience and it turned out I didn't know comics as well as I thought I did. I made plenty of mistakes and when a customer expressed interest in buying it, I jumped on the opportunity. Unburdened from my past mistakes, I scouted the NY area ,found what I thought were the three best run shops and volunteered my services to the owners. I explained I wasn't looking for a job, but I'd work for them for three weeks in return for them training me how they run their shops. Two took me up and I spent the summer commuting almost an hour to an unpaid internship but after eight weeks I was ready to open my own store again.
    A couple of years later, when restoring comics was becoming big money, I found the best restorer I could find and spent five days learning the trade. It ended up costing me almost $3,000 but I got hands on classes from the best in the business. It must have taken me three or four years to make back that money, but the last twenty five years have been pure gravy.

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