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Mission146
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Mission146
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July 16th, 2017 at 11:19:45 AM permalink
Quote: mustangsally

excellent idea!
many bet $5 on the pass,come,place bets and $1 on hardways.

players should be able to bet $1 and pay a higher house edge because of it.
payout gets rounded down
just like when they make $3 place bets...

very easy to keep throwing $1 on the bet than $5
but both should work

I was playing with the bet in Wincraps
and times it just does not hit,
but then it does and sometimes 2 or 3 times in a row on the 6, for example

point 6
7out
damn

new shooter
point 6 ...winner!
next roll a 6 winner!!
bet it again.
next cor point a 6!
Yahoo!
(actually happened in the Zumma dice rolls. 6 3 times then 9 3 times. wow!)



Great post, and I wasn't actually thinking along the lines of reducing payouts for a short bet, but that makes a lot of sense!

To the rest of your post, those are good points and I could actually see this bet kind of working for players in conjunction with the Fire Bet in a way. I don't play the Fire Bet, but I imagine it can be frustrating for players when three or four points are lit up and then the next point established is the same as the previous point that was made, getting paid on it instead could ease that frustration a bit.

Players could also press this bet (to a multiple of five) in whole or in part as players often do with Place/Buy bets. Repeat the four, for instance, get paid $38 (profit $33) and maybe they leave anywhere from $10-$30 on it hoping it happens again. It should be pretty easy for the dealers just to multiply the payout by the number of red chips that are on it. "Pressure on the Back-On-Bet!" I could see that being a thing for some people.

I suppose another thing I don't understand is why to have this on a For-One basis rather than a To-One basis and the original bet stays up for the next point established automatically unless the player asks for it back, again, kind of like how a Place Bet works.
Vultures can't be choosers.
NewToCraps
NewToCraps
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July 16th, 2017 at 3:51:10 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I suppose another thing I don't understand is why to have this on a For-One basis rather than a To-One basis and the original bet stays up for the next point established automatically unless the player asks for it back, again, kind of like how a Place Bet works.

Went I was developing the idea, I didn't think people would feel that a point could repeat a third time and thought the location of the wager boxes would be in an area between the dealer and the place bets.

I thought dealers would be paying out "to one" bets but then being asked by the player to return their original wager. So I figured let the dealers pay out "for one" bets then just clear all the chips from the wager box.

Remember, I had only learned to play craps about 6 months before I wrote the patent application for this idea, I was a rookie (to some degree - still am) at having a real good understanding of all the ins and outs of the game as well as dealer perspectives, etc. (lol)
Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 16th, 2017 at 4:35:51 PM permalink
Quote: NewToCraps

Went I was developing the idea, I didn't think people would feel that a point could repeat a third time and thought the location of the wager boxes would be in an area between the dealer and the place bets.



I'm not going to concede that, but I do follow your other positions! If they didn't think it would repeat a third time, then what would make them think it would repeat a second time? If they don't think it's going to repeat at all, then you don't even have a bet, because nobody would play it!

People do it all the time with Place/Buy bets, they press them constantly. They usually end up pressing them until they eventually lose, but then, I don't really see anyone doing a, 'Full Press,' on this bet more than once. Either way, I could see people tossing in one of the reds the dealer hands them and saying, "Make it ten," or something to that effect.

Quote:

I thought dealers would be paying out "to one" bets but then being asked by the player to return their original wager. So I figured let the dealers pay out "for one" bets then just clear all the chips from the wager box.



I wouldn't do it that way because it doesn't encourage any further betting. Players could ask for Place Bets back when they hit, but the majority of players do not. If they don't press it, they usually just let the original bet ride. They make the same assumption with Hardway bets, if the bet wins, the player is paid the winnings and the bet stays up. In fact, the only dealer service bets on the entire table that don't work that way are one-roll prop bets, I think, with exception to things like the Fire Bet which do pay on a FOR-ONE basis.

I would consider this bet as most comparable to a Place Bet or a Hard Way bet. It's like both in that it is a multi-roll bet, the payouts are somewhat comparable to a Hard Way, and it is a Place bet in the sense that you are essentially just Placing one point number against the other five point numbers.

I say just leave the dealers pay out the profit amount, the player can ask for the bet back if he wants to, otherwise it stays up. Besides, wouldn't you rather have more bets on it as opposed to fewer?

Quote:

Remember, I had only learned to play craps about 6 months before I wrote the patent application for this idea, I was a rookie (to some degree - still am) at having a real good understanding of all the ins and outs of the game as well as dealer perspectives, etc. (lol)



You certainly did a great job coming up with a side bet idea and getting it patented given your relative newness to the game.

I think having a betting circle in front of the player and then moving the bets to a numbered spot, as with the Fire Bet, is the best way to go. It doesn't interfere with the Seven-Out, 'Sweep,' and as with the Fire Bet, anybody who made the bet is paid out all at once on a win and the losing chips are swept away on a loss.
Vultures can't be choosers.
NewToCraps
NewToCraps
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July 16th, 2017 at 4:56:23 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I think having a betting circle in front of the player and then moving the bets to a numbered spot, as with the Fire Bet, is the best way to go. It doesn't interfere with the Seven-Out, 'Sweep,' and as with the Fire Bet, anybody who made the bet is paid out all at once on a win and the losing chips are swept away on a loss.

The only reason I didn't go with the betting circle idea was so I wouldn't have a problem getting the patent. I wasn't sure if the patent people would reject the betting circle idea as it was part of the fire bet patent.
So when I wrote the patent application, I did my drawings showing wager boxes above the place bets. As MustangSally pointed out, in my drawings I removed the don't area (rookie mistake).
Going with the approach of betting circles would take it back to a "for-one" bet.
Last edited by: NewToCraps on Jul 16, 2017
Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D
NewToCraps
NewToCraps
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July 17th, 2017 at 5:01:50 AM permalink
Quote: mustangsally

Looking at the image in the patent,
seems the don't come boxes are removed.

I would put yourself into the shoes of the boxman
and think of how this can mess up the game.

That 7out that does not clear all bets
could be a thorn-in-the-side, imo

Oops ... mistake on the drawing - taking the don't come boxes out.

Dealers have to "deal with" any place bets that are turned off not being cleared, and so they have to pick and choose which ones stay and which one go all in the same area of the place bet boxes (that is a thorn-in-the-side).

With the Back On Bets being in their own area, it will be a simple system - the entire area of Back On Bet boxes always stays on a seven-out (they will know the bet, and how it pays when the puck gets put on that point number, but otherwise stays up).

Here is a drawing with the Back On Bets in BLUE.

Last edited by: NewToCraps on Jul 17, 2017
Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 17th, 2017 at 6:53:13 AM permalink
What's that above the Hop Bets, did your drawing keep the Fire Bet spots? That's where I was suggesting your bet could go, even on a Fire Bet table. If it's not a Fire Bet table, they could go there, and if it is, there could be another circle per spot just outside of those ones.
Vultures can't be choosers.
777
777
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July 17th, 2017 at 9:29:50 AM permalink
Quote: NewToCraps

A link to the patent.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=9636571&OS=9636571&RS=9636571



Congratulations on your new patent on craps bonus side bet.

You filed the patent on July 2014, and it was issued on May 2017. That's about couple months less than 3 years, and it seems like exceedingly long to me. During those years, I guess you must have encountered numerous questions from patent examiner. Since you filed the patent by yourself, it would be very beneficial to other wannabe game inventors if you can you share your experience in dealing with patent examiner and the patent process itself. Any advice you have is greatly appreciated.
NewToCraps
NewToCraps
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July 17th, 2017 at 7:25:24 PM permalink
Quote: 777

You filed the patent on July 2014, and it was issued on May 2017. That's about couple months less than 3 years, and it seems like exceedingly long to me.

I submitted my provisional in July 2013, then submitted my non-provisional in July 2014, so it was actually almost 4 years.

Quote: 777

During those years, I guess you must have encountered numerous questions from patent examiner. Since you filed the patent by yourself, it would be very beneficial to other wannabe game inventors if you can you share your experience in dealing with patent examiner and the patent process itself. Any advice you have is greatly appreciated.

There was a lot of wait time, only one rejection. Maybe I will do a separate post about the experience I went through start to finish with the patent portion of my Back On Bet idea. Hopefully someday in the future I can do a separate post on the experience of successfully marketing it.
Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D
777
777
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July 17th, 2017 at 9:57:38 PM permalink
Quote: NewToCraps

I submitted my provisional in July 2013, then submitted my non-provisional in July 2014, so it was actually almost 4 years.

There was a lot of wait time, only one rejection. Maybe I will do a separate post about the experience I went through start to finish with the patent portion of my Back On Bet idea. Hopefully someday in the future I can do a separate post on the experience of successfully marketing it.



Great. I wish you the best of luck and great success in marketing the Back On Bet.
NewToCraps
NewToCraps
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July 19th, 2017 at 10:56:00 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

What's that above the Hop Bets, did your drawing keep the Fire Bet spots? That's where I was suggesting your bet could go, even on a Fire Bet table. If it's not a Fire Bet table, they could go there, and if it is, there could be another circle per spot just outside of those ones.

Yes, that is the Fire Bet spots above the Hop Bets area.

The main reason I thought that it would work better to have Back On Bet boxes similar to Place Bet boxes, above the don't boxes, is:
1) the wager chips would be in a box that is associated with the Back On number so during a CO roll it would be known what point number would need to be rolled to win. If the circle approach were used, there would have to be another indicator of what the Back On number is during the come out (the puck is OFF in the don't area).
2) there is a trigger for the dealer when putting the puck on the appropriate point number box the pay out winning Back On bets which are located adjacent to where the puck is (better visually to relate to two events).
The big question is if there can be an additional area carved out by squeezing the come area down in size.
Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D Dice D

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