McDemon
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May 23rd, 2013 at 2:23:29 AM permalink
SwitchMatch ® is a new exhilarating card game played using a customised deck containing 240 cards with each card having a "Top" value and "Back" (bottom) value.

The lowest value is a one (Ace), the highest value is a six. Each card is unique, occurring only once in the deck.

Making use of the traditional playing cards suits of Heart, Clubs, Diamonds and Spades; it may help to think about the cards like dominoes with suits.

SwitchMatch ® offers the player two exciting games, the Match game and the Bonus game.

The Match game offers the player the chance to match their chosen total with the dealer's total to
win.

The Bonus game makes use of the numbers and the suits offering new and original bonus hands with the chance to win up to 90 to 1 off a single bet by introducing a revolutionary bet, Bonus Match ® where players can gamble their winning bonus to win more.

Check out the following for more info
https://www.facebook.com/switch.match
http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/switchmatch.html
http://www.switchmatch.co.uk/

Online version coming 4th Quarter 2013.
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MrCasinoGames
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May 23rd, 2013 at 2:30:50 AM permalink
Quote: McDemon

SwitchMatch ® is a new exhilarating card game played using a customised deck containing 240 cards with each card having a "Top" value and "Back" (bottom) value.

The lowest value is a one (Ace), the highest value is a six. Each card is unique, occurring only once in the deck.

Making use of the traditional playing cards suits of Heart, Clubs, Diamonds and Spades; it may help to think about the cards like dominoes with suits.

SwitchMatch ® offers the player two exciting games, the Match game and the Bonus game.

The Match game offers the player the chance to match their chosen total with the dealer's total to
win.

The Bonus game makes use of the numbers and the suits offering new and original bonus hands with the chance to win up to 90 to 1 off a single bet by introducing a revolutionary bet, Bonus Match ® where players can gamble their winning bonus to win more.

Check out the following for more info
https://www.facebook.com/switch.match
http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/switchmatch.html
http://www.switchmatch.co.uk/

Online version coming 4th Quarter 2013.


Hi McDemon,
Welcome to the forum.
How is you game (switch.match) doing in UK?
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
McDemon
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May 23rd, 2013 at 3:08:05 AM permalink
As well as can be expected given the under investment by the UK casino scene generally in table games. Remember Stephen you played it in Maidenhead and I seem to recall you were winning!
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MrCasinoGames
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May 23rd, 2013 at 4:58:35 AM permalink
Quote: McDemon

As well as can be expected given the under investment by the UK casino scene generally in table games. Remember Stephen you played it in Maidenhead and I seem to recall you were winning!


Yes, I Remember played it in Maidenhead Reading (nice to have meet you there) and yes getting a new table game into the UK is not easy.

Good Luck with your game.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
MathExtremist
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May 23rd, 2013 at 6:48:54 AM permalink
Quote: McDemon

SwitchMatch ® is a new exhilarating card game played using a customised deck containing 240 cards with each card having a "Top" value and "Back" (bottom) value.

The lowest value is a one (Ace), the highest value is a six. Each card is unique, occurring only once in the deck.


This sounds like a card-based dominoes game. Why didn't you use domino tiles? The world has plenty of card games...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paradigm
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May 23rd, 2013 at 7:59:24 AM permalink
McD can you go through a few examples of the game perhaps describing the make up of the deck and then some sample hands. I don't quite understand exactly how the game is played after viewing the included links and your description.
Hunterhill
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May 23rd, 2013 at 8:00:29 AM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

McD can you go through a few examples of the game perhaps describing the make up of the deck and then some sample hands. I don't quite understand exactly how the game is played after viewing the included links and your description.

Same here.
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McDemon
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May 23rd, 2013 at 8:03:51 AM permalink
I use the phrase dominoes to help players understand the cards, Domino tiles are not banker game friendly, can't deal them as easily as cards nor shuffle them as easily plus the cost of providing 240 dominoes puts them out of range as a bankers' game
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McDemon
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May 23rd, 2013 at 8:28:58 AM permalink
Right, here we go. Strip a normal deck of cards so only have Ace, 2 3, 4, 5 and 6, leaving you with a deck of 24 cards. Then combine every card with every other card as a double denomination cards. You have 300 cards, when the doubles are removed, ie 2 of spades and 2 of clubs you are left with 240 cards. each card is unique meaning there are only one Ace of hearts/ six of spades, one three of clubs/ two of clubs. This is much easier to show than describe!

Player gets 2 cards, dealer gets 2 cards.

Dealer's Hand -Rule 1
" Dealer must play highest possible total on Top".
This means the dealer must ensure his top hand is as high as the cards allow.

Dealer's Hand - Rule 2
"Dealer must play minimum total of 1 on Back".
This means that the dealer's back hand cannot be "Zero"; it must be 1 or higher.

Using modulus 10 maths, as in Punto Banco, you add the total of the card along the horizontal so for instance if you had

2H/5C (2 of hearts/5 of clubs) and you had 3D/4D (3 of diamonds and 4 of diamonds) you could arrange you hand so you had either 9-5 or 8-6

If the dealer had these cards he would have to play 9-5 because of Dealer Rule 1, as a player you may decide to play 8-6 or 9-5.

Now the aim of the game is to match the dealers numbers on the respective win line to receive a pay out. So if the dealer had 9-5, meaning the dealer has 9 on his top hand and 5 on his back hand, if your top hand contains a 9 you are paid evens, if you back hand contains a 5 you receive evens. If you match both totals you receive 5 to 1. Without going into to much details the idea is to try and match the dealers totals on either his top or back hand.

I have reposted the information sheet on FB to give you a better idea.
https://www.facebook.com/switch.match

Bonus game

2H/5C and 3D/4D as described above also qualifies for a bonus if you have placed the bonus stake.
2H/5C and 3D/4D is a straight, 2, 3, 4, 5 and receives 3 to 1. If the straight is all black or all red, you can gamble the 3 to 1 payout against the dealers hand aka Bonus Match ®

Example. Player has 2H/5D and 3D/4D he would have a colour straight (All red). He could then gamble this against the dealers hand or take his 3 to 1. If he gambles and the dealers cards are all red, he receives a further 3 to 2 on his 3 to 1 winnings (15 to 2 in total). If the dealers cards are all black he loses his 3 to 1, if the dealers cards are mixed colour, his bet stands off.
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MathExtremist
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May 23rd, 2013 at 9:09:55 AM permalink
Have you seen Twist'em?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
McDemon
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May 23rd, 2013 at 9:28:33 AM permalink
No, I put it in google, but there appears to be many references to twist'em, which one should I look at?
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McDemon
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May 23rd, 2013 at 9:31:51 AM permalink
Ah ha, I think I have found it, http://www.olympiangaming.com/twistem/. I see why you mentioned using dominoes tiles now. And you use Mod 10 for addition, had any success with the game?
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Paradigm
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May 23rd, 2013 at 10:07:05 AM permalink
Interesting game McD....what is a "Match Plus" event that pays 3-2?

I am a fan of ME's Twist'em as well.
McDemon
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May 23rd, 2013 at 10:31:57 AM permalink
Match Plus is when you match on one pay line and your other hand is "higher" than the dealers so for example, dealer has 9/6, player has 9/8 receives a payout of 3 to 2..didn't include this the first time round as it can confuse. I have several different versions of the game, in one we lose the match plus and pay every match 3 to 2 which might be used for the online version. Twist'em is cool but for a live game, 3 dominoes or cards are too much for the average brain, online the computer can do it for you..
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Paradigm
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May 24th, 2013 at 10:44:07 AM permalink
Quote: McDemon

Twist'em is cool but for a live game, 3 dominoes or cards are too much for the average brain, online the computer can do it for you..


That is an interesting point of view that I had not considered before......I think it is easy to overestimate the capabilities of the average gambler, particularly on the Forum where many are so in tune with the various games/strategies.

I think Twist'em's main sticking point is the use of dominos and the fact that the average individual doesn't know what the population of the domino set is comprised of without investigating. I know that I didn't before looking at the game. The play seems to be easy enough, is 3 vs. 2 tiles really too complicated.....I am not sure.

Do you have a detailed description of the composition of the specialized deck of cards used in Switch Match available to players? I would have thought using a special deck of cards would be a "game killer"? But maybe players are equating the deck as a substitute for dominos, just with cards and the addition of "suits" to dominos is an acceptable extension. It will be interesting to see how the game trial progresses.

I wish you much success as I am hopeful that a non-poker/BJ variant game will eventually make it to the 100+ install club in the near future.
ThatDonGuy
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May 24th, 2013 at 3:58:06 PM permalink
Quote: McDemon

Now the aim of the game is to match the dealers numbers on the respective win line to receive a pay out.


Question: does the player get to see the dealer's cards before setting his own cards?

EDIT: After discovering that, if the player gets to look at the dealer's cards first, the player will win 2/3 of the time, I have a feeling the answer to my question is "no".
McDemon
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May 24th, 2013 at 6:31:05 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

That is an interesting point of view that I had not considered before......I think it is easy to overestimate the capabilities of the average gambler, particularly on the Forum where many are so in tune with the various games/strategies.

I think Twist'em's main sticking point is the use of dominos and the fact that the average individual doesn't know what the population of the domino set is comprised of without investigating. I know that I didn't before looking at the game. The play seems to be easy enough, is 3 vs. 2 tiles really too complicated.....I am not sure.

Do you have a detailed description of the composition of the specialized deck of cards used in Switch Match available to players? I would have thought using a special deck of cards would be a "game killer"? But maybe players are equating the deck as a substitute for dominos, just with cards and the addition of "suits" to dominos is an acceptable extension. It will be interesting to see how the game trial progresses.

I wish you much success as I am hopeful that a non-poker/BJ variant game will eventually make it to the 100+ install club in the near future.



Yes you are correct, it is very easy to over estimate the average punter, particularly in the UK, the deregulation of the industry has seen an influx of more casual players and so any new game has to contend with a largely inexperienced clientele. Most of these are still getting to grip with legacy games like Roulette and BJ and are not sufficiently minded to expand too far, their not interested enough in gambling, hence they are casual!

With respect to Stacy, his lack of actual gaming experience (working inside the business) is the missing string from his bow. He has created some interesting stuff, Twist'em is probably his best game IMO but tiles as a format in casinos, especially in the UK (which is really all I can comment on) are a non starter.

My own game, simple though it is to play may be too challenging for the casual market, which is weekends only. I think the game would have more of a chance in the Asian market who prefer a bit of depth to their games, Punto Banco being the best example, the Oriental market loves Punto.

When thinking about the complexity of going from 2 tiles to 3, the test is whether the dealer can make the right call every time when it comes to arranging the tiles/cars correctly according to the dealer rules. With two tiles/cards, there is only 2 ways to have the cards, with 3 tiles/card, there are 6 different ways, which is 4 too many, believe me, it has to be idiot proof, and 3 tiles confounds most so 2 tiles/cards works fairly well.

Actually, the cards are very quickly accepted by the players, within 3 hands they understand the mechanics and it drops off as an issue, although you are correct to say it would normally be very difficult to even considering presenting a new deck of cards, this was one of the areas most attention was focused but in reality, it isn't an issue.

I am happy to send you a detailed composition but I can't post a pdf file here can I so if you can offer me a method of doing so I would be happy to furnish you with the info.

In the UK it will be difficult to actually see the game make it as other than a weekend game, the casinos (outside of London) don't have the attendance and the operators are on major cost cutting exercise and generally poorly support new games. MrCasinoGames, as far as I know, hasn't had any one of his many offering taken up as a established game, and that is largely down to the state of the UK casino scene. Our online version is another story where we expect to make quite a splash when released, 1st Qtr 2014. With a worldwide market and some added goodies not really possible on a live game, plus an additional new IP based on the "switch" brand also available online, we anticipate a harder impact and more success.
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ThatDonGuy
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May 24th, 2013 at 7:50:08 PM permalink
Has anybody worked out the house edge for this game?

If I am understanding the rules correctly, then, by using this player strategy, somehow I am getting that the player has an advantage of 9.3%:

Make the largest number you can (even if the other one is zero) except with:
13 - 56 (i.e. with a 1/3 card and a 5/6 card pair 1+6 and 3+5 instead of 1+5 and 3+6)
14 - 45
15 - 56
16 - 45
23 - 36, 46
24 - 45
25 - 34, 56
26 - 45, 46
34 - 35
35 - 46, 56
36 - 45, 46, 56
45 - 46
McDemon
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May 25th, 2013 at 2:08:54 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Has anybody worked out the house edge for this game?

If I am understanding the rules correctly, then, by using this player strategy, somehow I am getting that the player has an advantage of 9.3%:

Make the largest number you can (even if the other one is zero) except with:
13 - 56 (i.e. with a 1/3 card and a 5/6 card pair 1+6 and 3+5 instead of 1+5 and 3+6)
14 - 45
15 - 56
16 - 45
23 - 36, 46
24 - 45
25 - 34, 56
26 - 45, 46
34 - 35
35 - 46, 56
36 - 45, 46, 56
45 - 46



ThatDonGuy, you must be misunderstanding something. The house edge is 1.73% on the main game (Optimal), the bonus bet is 4.4% if you always play the Bonus Match ® and 5.1% if you never play the Bonus Match ®. Remember the highest total is 9 as 5 and 6 added together is not "11" it is "1" as in Punto Banco
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McDemon
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May 25th, 2013 at 2:18:32 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Question: does the player get to see the dealer's cards before setting his own cards?

EDIT: After discovering that, if the player gets to look at the dealer's cards first, the player will win 2/3 of the time, I have a feeling the answer to my question is "no".



No, the players make set their hand (declare) and then the dealers cards are revealed and the dealer rules are applied to the dealer's hand.
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ThatDonGuy
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May 25th, 2013 at 11:44:30 AM permalink
Quote: McDemon

ThatDonGuy, you must be misunderstanding something. The house edge is 1.73% on the main game (Optimal), the bonus bet is 4.4% if you always play the Bonus Match ® and 5.1% if you never play the Bonus Match ®. Remember the highest total is 9 as 5 and 6 added together is not "11" it is "1" as in Punto Banco


I understand that. My mistake was, I thought that the player won if either the top or back number matched the dealer's top or back number; I didn't notice that it had to be top to top or back to back. (i.e. if the player had a 6-3 and a 4-3 and set the cards so 6 and 3 were on top and 4 and 3 were in back, and the dealer had 7 in front and 5 in back, I thought the player won because they both had 7.)

(I also didn't notice the 15-1 and 3-2 payouts.)

Here's what I get for the basic strategy under the correct rules:
Play the dealer's strategy, with these four exceptions:
1-6 and 4-6: put 1 and 6 on top (7 on top, 0 in back)
2-6 and 4-6: put 2 and 6 on top (8 on top, 0 in back)
3-6 and 4-6: put 3 and 6 on top (9 on top, 0 in back)
5-6 and 5-6: put both 5s on top (0 on top, 2 in back)
The house advantage is 1.732% - specifically, 583,741 / 33,702,585
McDemon
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May 25th, 2013 at 6:27:28 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

I understand that. My mistake was, I thought that the player won if either the top or back number matched the dealer's top or back number; I didn't notice that it had to be top to top or back to back. (i.e. if the player had a 6-3 and a 4-3 and set the cards so 6 and 3 were on top and 4 and 3 were in back, and the dealer had 7 in front and 5 in back, I thought the player won because they both had 7.)

(I also didn't notice the 15-1 and 3-2 payouts.)

Here's what I get for the basic strategy under the correct rules:
Play the dealer's strategy, with these four exceptions:
1-6 and 4-6: put 1 and 6 on top (7 on top, 0 in back)
2-6 and 4-6: put 2 and 6 on top (8 on top, 0 in back)
3-6 and 4-6: put 3 and 6 on top (9 on top, 0 in back)
5-6 and 5-6: put both 5s on top (0 on top, 2 in back)
The house advantage is 1.732% - specifically, 583,741 / 33,702,585



Excellent work, that is correct
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sodawater
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May 25th, 2013 at 6:51:54 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Have you seen Twist'em?



the twist 'em online game has the exact same UI as the wizard's new games on his site... did JB do it?
McDemon
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May 27th, 2013 at 9:00:07 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater

the twist 'em online game has the exact same UI as the wizard's new games on his site... did JB do it?



Who's JB?
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MathExtremist
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May 27th, 2013 at 9:52:28 PM permalink
Quote: McDemon

his lack of actual gaming experience (working inside the business) is the missing string from his bow.


15 years isn't enough? Sheesh, there's just no pleasing some people.

(I'm kidding, of course -- not about the longevity, but about seeming indignant about it. :)

Quote:

When thinking about the complexity of going from 2 tiles to 3, the test is whether the dealer can make the right call every time when it comes to arranging the tiles/cars correctly according to the dealer rules. With two tiles/cards, there is only 2 ways to have the cards, with 3 tiles/card, there are 6 different ways, which is 4 too many, believe me, it has to be idiot proof, and 3 tiles confounds most so 2 tiles/cards works fairly well.


I would hope that the players and dealers in your market are not so impatient as to require a game with only two possible ways to play any hand. I did an informal demo of Twist'em in Las Vegas, not to a gaming director but just to another colleague. We were sitting at an unused table in a closed pit, and nearby was the shift-change meeting for the new dealers coming on. One of them, unbeknownst to me, was looking over my shoulder and after about 5 minutes she had the whole dealing procedure and hand ranking figured out. She then stepped behind the table and dealt me a few hands. I figure if dealers can train themselves in 5 minutes, the game's not too complex. FYI, there are only four possible ways to set a hand in Twist'em, and often two or more are redundant.

I whipped up a 2-tile version of Twist'em and it was, in my opinion, too simple. Later this week I'll polish it up and put it online; I'll let the readers here decide which version they like.

However, my goal wasn't to create a weekend game for casual players, but a game with longevity. I chose dominoes because the tactile experience is vastly superior to cards, I've seen how big Pai Gow games can get, and there are no successful casino games played with standard double six dominoes (Bernie Mac in Ocean's Thirteen notwithstanding). I meant Twist'em to be a simpler, more accessible version of Pai Gow using a type of domino tile that is more familiar in Europe and the Americas.

You indicated tiles in the UK is a non-starter -- do casinos never operate Pai Gow? It is a very important game in California among the eastern Asian clientele, though I admit that very few others ever play it because the rules are complex. That's one of the key drivers behind Twist'em: I wanted to make a simpler dominoes game that doesn't require memorizing a lengthy house way (like this: https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-tiles/house-way/foxwoods/) or learning special hand or tile rankings. That's why I developed the Twist'em mechanic using double six dominoes, and now you've stumbled upon the same mechanic 12 years later using dual-value cards. I hope you're successful if for no other reason than it bodes well for my own game. I look forward to seeing your online product. Is that going to be a demo game or are you partnering with an online operator (either real money or social)?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MathExtremist
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May 27th, 2013 at 9:52:55 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

the twist 'em online game has the exact same UI as the wizard's new games on his site... did JB do it?


Yes, he did the initial version and then I heavily modified the code when I reworked the side bets.
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McDemon
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May 28th, 2013 at 12:46:19 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

15 years isn't enough? Sheesh, there's just no pleasing some people.

(I'm kidding, of course -- not about the longevity, but about seeming indignant about it. :)



Sorry Stacy, I didn't think you worked in the business, which casino/s did you work in?

Quote: MathExtremist


I would hope that the players and dealers in your market are not so impatient as to require a game with only two possible ways to play any hand. I did an informal demo of Twist'em in Las Vegas, not to a gaming director but just to another colleague. We were sitting at an unused table in a closed pit, and nearby was the shift-change meeting for the new dealers coming on. One of them, unbeknownst to me, was looking over my shoulder and after about 5 minutes she had the whole dealing procedure and hand ranking figured out. She then stepped behind the table and dealt me a few hands. I figure if dealers can train themselves in 5 minutes, the game's not too complex. FYI, there are only four possible ways to set a hand in Twist'em, and often two or more are redundant.

I whipped up a 2-tile version of Twist'em and it was, in my opinion, too simple. Later this week I'll polish it up and put it online; I'll let the readers here decide which version they like.

However, my goal wasn't to create a weekend game for casual players, but a game with longevity. I chose dominoes because the tactile experience is vastly superior to cards, I've seen how big Pai Gow games can get, and there are no successful casino games played with standard double six dominoes (Bernie Mac in Ocean's Thirteen notwithstanding). I meant Twist'em to be a simpler, more accessible version of Pai Gow using a type of domino tile that is more familiar in Europe and the Americas.

You indicated tiles in the UK is a non-starter -- do casinos never operate Pai Gow? It is a very important game in California among the eastern Asian clientele, though I admit that very few others ever play it because the rules are complex. That's one of the key drivers behind Twist'em: I wanted to make a simpler dominoes game that doesn't require memorizing a lengthy house way (like this: https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-tiles/house-way/foxwoods/) or learning special hand or tile rankings. That's why I developed the Twist'em mechanic using double six dominoes, and now you've stumbled upon the same mechanic 12 years later using dual-value cards. I hope you're successful if for no other reason than it bodes well for my own game. I look forward to seeing your online product. Is that going to be a demo game or are you partnering with an online operator (either real money or social)?



Pai Gow is virtually non existent in the UK, a couple of casinos in the West end (backing on to China town) have it but other than that, nowhere. I am not critical of Twist'em, its a sweet product. I agree that 3 tiles/cards should not be beyond the wit of a dealer to work out but mate, it is a struggle, some of them struggle with 2 cards, it beggars belief!!.

Twist'em use double tiles, Switch Match doesn't, possibly why 2 tile Twist'em is too simple, sometimes when you have a double tile there isn't a Twist! as the values do not change, I removed all the doubles from Switch Match, so the values always change. Hence why 3 cards/tiles without doubles makes it difficult!

The online version will initially be a demo we take to online portals, like openbet or playtech for them to redistribute to their online casino clients (if they want it). The online version will be different to the live game as we can do a lot more with a digital version, eg, Dealer bonus (where the player can bet on the dealer receiving a bonus hand - not in the live game) plus some other bits and bobs that would be difficult to implement on a live table.
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McDemon
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May 28th, 2013 at 4:14:51 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

.

However, my goal wasn't to create a weekend game for casual players, but a game with longevity. I chose dominoes because the tactile experience is vastly superior to cards, I've seen how big Pai Gow games can get, and there are no successful casino games played with standard double six dominoes (Bernie Mac in Ocean's Thirteen notwithstanding). I meant Twist'em to be a simpler, more accessible version of Pai Gow using a type of domino tile that is more familiar in Europe and the Americas.



My goal is to create a game that can be implemented worldwide, I am not interested in Weekend only games, not in the least. Naturally I have to try my own backyard first but the UK is in a period of transition, frankly, the industry doesn't know where its heading. Cutting costs is the prime directive which isn't particularly fertile to trying to introduce new table games so my gut feeling is I may have to go further afield to find success with the live version, the online version will be easier (I hope).
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Switch
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May 28th, 2013 at 5:36:30 AM permalink
Quote: McDemon

... ... ... the UK is in a period of transition, frankly, the industry doesn't know where its heading. Cutting costs is the prime directive which isn't particularly fertile to trying to introduce new table games ... ... ...



I agree that the UK is a difficult place to gain momentum on a new game as the casinos tend to focus more on keeping their existing games running rather than trying to promote a new variation.

In fairness, they were keen to try a lot of new games when the new legislation got introduced. However, most of the players tended to stick with the current offerings and so a lot of new games have been installed and taken out. The footfall in the UK isn't enough to allow players to spread around and cover multiple table games during the week. Also the staffing levels aren't able to cope with multiple table games until a Friday or Saturday night.

The result is that new games nowadays tend to get a tentative opening and may not get prime placement or fail to be operated enough hours in the week. This makes it much more difficult to gain player acceptance unless the game is good enough to overcome this and begin to earn the manager's confidence - this will lead to better placement and longer opening hours.

The difficult part is breaking out of that vicious circle.
McDemon
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May 28th, 2013 at 5:45:32 AM permalink
Quote: Switch

I agree that the UK is a difficult place to gain momentum on a new game as the casinos tend to focus more on keeping their existing games running rather than trying to promote a new variation.

In fairness, they were keen to try a lot of new games when the new legislation got introduced. However, most of the players tended to stick with the current offerings and so a lot of new games have been installed and taken out. The footfall in the UK isn't enough to allow players to spread around and cover multiple table games during the week. Also the staffing levels aren't able to cope with multiple table games until a Friday or Saturday night.

The result is that new games nowadays tend to get a tentative opening and may not get prime placement or fail to be operated enough hours in the week. This makes it much more difficult to gain player acceptance unless the game is good enough to overcome this and begin to earn the manager's confidence - this will lead to better placement and longer opening hours.

The difficult part is breaking out of that vicious circle.



I couldn't agree with you more, spot on. I see a major problem being that there has been so many poor "new" games that the operators have such a low expectation (and in most cases, rightly so) that when something comes along that is a bit special, it comes up against exactly the scenario you have mentioned. What is to be done!
Controversial sometimes, brutally honest..Always
Switch
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May 28th, 2013 at 9:57:45 AM permalink
Quote: McDemon

I couldn't agree with you more, spot on. I see a major problem being that there has been so many poor "new" games that the operators have such a low expectation (and in most cases, rightly so) that when something comes along that is a bit special, it comes up against exactly the scenario you have mentioned. What is to be done!



I'll give you 2 recent examples having visited some casinos to check out 'Free Bet'.

Manager 'A' when asked about how the game was performing, replied "I don't see us removing this game at present". I know it's all about semantics but to me "I can see us keeping the game for a while" sounds far more positive - a bit like the glass half full or half empty scenario.

Manager 'B' showed me where they placed the game when it first went in (points to table at the end of the pit in a quiet area) and then says "We had to move the game up next to our regular Blackjack game due to player demand".

This tells me that they don't expect much from a new game and unless the game progresses against the odds then it's likely to spiral downwards into obscurity.
MathExtremist
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May 28th, 2013 at 7:59:24 PM permalink
Quote: McDemon

which casino/s did you work in?


Most of the casinos for whom I've worked don't have a physical presence. I've never been a table games dealer, if that's what you're asking. Virtually all of my career has been on the vendor side, and I can say with confidence that well over 5 million people have played games I've developed.

Quote:

Pai Gow is virtually non existent in the UK, a couple of casinos in the West end (backing on to China town) have it but other than that, nowhere. I am not critical of Twist'em, its a sweet product. I agree that 3 tiles/cards should not be beyond the wit of a dealer to work out but mate, it is a struggle, some of them struggle with 2 cards, it beggars belief!!.


I wouldn't doubt that some dealers would have initial trouble, but that's okay. You don't need every dealer on your staff to be able to deal everything. Some card game dealers will never learn craps or roulette.

I sent in Twist'em to a new games demo session last year at Grosvenor Casino (at Coventry, I recall). The feedback I received was that it was in the 2nd tier of games to try after the initial round of card games. To my knowledge, none of the feedback was that the game was actually hard to deal or difficult to play; the dealer trainer noted that "there's a little room for the dealers to develop their individual styles whilst dealing, there's a hint of theatre and ceremony to it all." Indeed, I've gone out of my way to make the game as easy to deal as possible, and the house way is maximally simple: always make the highest high hand.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
McDemon
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May 29th, 2013 at 1:06:59 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Most of the casinos for whom I've worked don't have a physical presence. I've never been a table games dealer, if that's what you're asking. Virtually all of my career has been on the vendor side, and I can say with confidence that well over 5 million people have played games I've developed.



IMO being a dealer is a significant advantage when developing casino games, particularly in the UK where traditionally (although not so much so now) the method or procedure in dealing the game is so important. For instance, it took me over 4 months to finalize the procedure for Switch Match, not because it was difficult per se but because security of cards and chips has to be bang on, so every possible scenario or event has a procedure. If a game is hard to deal or the procedure has not been thought through, the dealers are not going to like dealing it and the casino may have concerns about it. Derek Webb initially struggled with 3cp because he had not been a dealer; and coming from outside the business, and not understanding the procedural needs of the game was an extra hurdle. And 3cp is very easy to deal although I am yet to find a dealer that actually enjoys dealing 3cp, most dealers absolutely loath the game. Plus there is a major snobbery within casinos of people from outside the industry developing games because the impression is if they haven't worked in the business, they haven't a clue. It may not be right but that is the way the industry sees "outsiders". Twist'em would not be a hard game to deal, I could deal it straight away but that isn't true for a significantly large minority of dealers, as said previously, they struggle with 2 x dual cards, its shocking!
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miplet
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May 31st, 2013 at 10:15:25 AM permalink
Mr Slow Poke has finally done his own analysis. The UK table games site lists 5.01% for the Bonus Game, but I get 5.06%.
The Match Game
HandPaysWaysReturn
Match'em 9-9155426720.010063619749049
Match'em 5298100160.184271325181733
Match Plus1.51330193280.246678644976342
Match11373805440.169844222137066
Loser-1508109480-0.62817817485909
Total808862040-0.0173203628149

The Bonus Game
HandPaysWaysReturn
Straight320160.210878661087866
2 Pair616200.338912133891213
Colour Straight32520.026359832635983
2 Pair Colour61800.03765690376569
Flush103840.133891213389121
Straight Flush36360.045188284518828
Loser-124192-0.843514644351464
Total28680-0.050627615062761

The Bonus Game With Bonus Match
HandPaysWaysReturn
Straight3568572480.210878661087866
2 Pair6456888600.338912133891213
Colour Straight (W)7.54165560.003862426279765
Colour Straight (P)362445600.023160537982472
Colour Straight (L)04460400
2 Pair Colour (W)152975400.005517751828235
2 Pair Colour (P)644604000.033086482832103
2 Pair Colour (L)03186000
Flush (W)256347520.019618673167058
Flush (P)1095155200.117640827847478
Flush (L)06796800
Straight Flush (W)90595080.006621302193882
Straight Flush (P)368920800.039703779398524
Straight Flush (L)0637200
Loser-1682286976-0.843514644351464
Total808862040-0.044512067842867
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
McDemon
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May 31st, 2013 at 10:25:59 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

Mr Slow Poke has finally done his own analysis. The UK table games site lists 5.01% for the Bonus Game, but I get 5.06%.

The Match Game
HandPaysWaysReturn
Match'em 9-9155426720.010063619749049
Match'em 5298100160.184271325181733
Match Plus1.51330193280.246678644976342
Match11373805440.169844222137066
Loser-1508109480-0.62817817485909
Total808862040-0.0173203628149

The Bonus Game
HandPaysWaysReturn
Straight320160.210878661087866
2 Pair616200.338912133891213
Colour Straight32520.026359832635983
2 Pair Colour61800.03765690376569
Flush103840.133891213389121
Straight Flush36360.045188284518828
Loser-124192-0.843514644351464
Total28680-0.050627615062761

The Bonus Game With Bonus Match
HandPaysWaysReturn
Straight3568572480.210878661087866
2 Pair6456888600.338912133891213
Colour Straight (W)7.54165560.003862426279765
Colour Straight (P)362445600.023160537982472
Colour Straight (L)04460400
2 Pair Colour (W)152975400.005517751828235
2 Pair Colour (P)644604000.033086482832103
2 Pair Colour (L)03186000
Flush (W)256347520.019618673167058
Flush (P)1095155200.117640827847478
Flush (L)06796800
Straight Flush (W)90595080.006621302193882
Straight Flush (P)368920800.039703779398524
Straight Flush (L)0637200
Loser-1682286976-0.843514644351464
Total808862040-0.044512067842867



The HE is 5.0628% on the Bonus match, if you never match and always take your bonus, its 4.4512% if you always compare, in reality the actual % will be somewhere in between these figures
Controversial sometimes, brutally honest..Always
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