pacomartin
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June 2nd, 2010 at 7:03:03 AM permalink


Boyd Gaming Corp. has put the brakes on its $4.8 billion Echelon project for at least three to five years. Does anyone think that they can build this building on steel frames that have been exposed for three to five years? Not an engineering question, but a consumer confidence question.

Quote: © Las Vegas Review-Journal


Article removed by management out of fear of a lawsuit .

FleaStiff
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June 2nd, 2010 at 7:09:32 AM permalink
I don't know if it structurally sound to build on exposed steel girders that have had no paint or anything to protect them. Maybe its no big deal to a structural engineer, maybe it is. It sure ain't gonna be no big deal to no consumers once them public relations firms start generating hype and the project gets renamed.
likeplayingcrapsandbj
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June 2nd, 2010 at 7:15:34 AM permalink
"Does anyone think that they can build this building on steel frames that have been exposed for three to five years?"
I thought the same thing about Fountebleu(sp) accross the street. Last year I even talked to the doorman at the Encore who was a crane worker at Echelon(before being layed off)who made the same observation. "how can those beams be exsposed for so long and still be strong?"

---You will talk to the most interesting people when taking an early morning walk in Las Vegas---
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UWPeteO
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June 2nd, 2010 at 7:46:37 AM permalink
As a structural engineer I can say with relative confidence that a few years exposed to Las Vegas weather won't do a thing to the strength of the steel. Usually the only concern with exposed steel is corrosion, and with the extreme lack of rain in Las Vegas there probably isn't any real worry. Not to mention the beams likely received a coat of shop paint and will be protected for quite some time.
DJTeddyBear
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June 2nd, 2010 at 7:49:11 AM permalink
Is that a recent photo? It surprises me that they would leave the tower cranes behind. Surely, it's got to be cheaper to dismantle them, use them elsewhere, and reassemble if construction ever resumes, than to have them just sitting there.


But consumer confidence in the exposed steel skeleton?

First, most consumers won't know the history. If they do, most won't know the difference.

And besides, just what is the steel exposed to? Maybe I'm wrong here, but isn't exposed steel's biggest danger rust? And doesn't rust form after exposure to water? Are there other dangers of exposure?


Will rust / exposure really be a problem in the desert?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Nareed
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June 2nd, 2010 at 7:52:12 AM permalink
I got it! Las vegas is part of the entertainment industry. This explains so much. Entertainment is ruled by Asimov's Law of Hollywwod: Whatever happens, nothing happens!

Meaning, meetings are held, press releases are issued, interviews are made, lunch is done, and the project is still stuck on "development."

There's also the First Hollywwod Principle: Hurry up and wait. Meaning, in this case, a hotel needs to be torn down even if there are no plans to replace it, no capital to implement plans to replace it, or even any intention of replacing it.
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pacomartin
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June 2nd, 2010 at 11:25:29 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Is that a recent photo? It surprises me that they would leave the tower cranes behind. Surely, it's got to be cheaper to dismantle them, use them elsewhere, and reassemble if construction ever resumes, than to have them just sitting there.



Quote: Arnold M. Knightly


Boyd Gaming Corp. removing cranes from Echelon site
Sep. 29, 2009

Boyd Gaming Corp. has begun removing some of the cranes at its 87-acre Echelon site although a company spokesman said the work did not indicate any change in the stalled project’s status. Company spokesman David Strow Tuesday said the equipment that is being removed had been used to pour concrete on the Strip project, so they are no longer needed. “Those are being removed from the site because we were leasing them and we no longer want to pay month-to-month rent on equipment we are not using,” Strow said. Other construction cranes on the project, which was halted a year ago, will remain on site for now, he said. Boyd stopped construction in August 2008 after the economy crashed and gaming revenues began to tumble.



The typical fee for installation and disassembly runs around $60,000. This price includes shipping the crane to the site, renting the mobile crane used to assemble the tower crane, the cost of the crew that handles the assembly, etc. A typical monthly fee for a 150-foot-tall tower crane is approximately $15,000, with an additional charge to rent the climbing frame and extra mast sections.

This question has been asked before, but no reasonable answer has been given as of now. It is possible that Boyd considers the price of the cranes as a minor public relations gamble to decrease the calls by the public to tear down the steel frame. It may be necessary to have them there for part of the maintenance process.

Regulations may require that cranes be on the sight of a project in construction in case of some kind of emergency.

If six cranes cost $15K apiece that is still a pretty small chunk of change compared to the $0.5 billion they sunk into construction so far, plus the loss of income from the Stardust. Plus Bill's Gaming Hall was traded for an empty piece of land that is part of the Echelon project.
DJTeddyBear
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June 2nd, 2010 at 11:58:32 AM permalink
Well, all those points certainly make sense.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Nareed
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June 2nd, 2010 at 3:17:55 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

And besides, just what is the steel exposed to? Maybe I'm wrong here, but isn't exposed steel's biggest danger rust? And doesn't rust form after exposure to water? Are there other dangers of exposure?



Salt is far more dammaging to steel than mere water. Salt water, like that on the oceans, is even worse.

Salt isn't much of a problem far from the sea, but you'd be surprised just how prevalent it can be. Pretty much all life depends on salt water. That's why saline solution is used in hospital IVs.

Acid rain would be worse than mere rain, but I don't think that's an issue in Nevada. Anything else that can commonly corrode steel, wouldn't get there on its own. I wouldn't worry about temperature shifts, either.
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pacomartin
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June 3rd, 2010 at 9:06:33 AM permalink
The Mirage costs $0.630 billion, the Bellagio costs $1.6 billion, and the Wynn cost $2.7 billion. If I am not mistaken they were each the most expensive hotel in the world at the time when they opened in 1989, 1998, and 2005.

Even factoring in inflation it seems like all the mega projects planned, started, or completed like City Center ($11 billion +), the Plaza($5 billion), Echelon ($4.8 billion), Cosmopolitan ($3.9 billion), Planet Hollywood Towers ($1.2 billion), Encore ($2.1 billion), Viva ($10 billion), Fountainbleau($2.9 billion) represent a huge amount of capital.

Even in the recession in 2009 spending at the Bellagio was almost $800 per day per room rented. Now some of that is from people who are not staying in rooms, and some of it comes from high rollers. However, the equivalent was still $600 per day at the Mirage.

It just seems like such huge amounts of money. I also wonder why all of a sudden it seemed as if nobody could build a casino, then add a mall, and then add a boutique hotels, etc. Why was it that all of a sudden you had to build a mega-center all at once?

I just am not sure how these steel beams after five years can be turned into a mega complex. I think that people will react badly to the building. I do think people will be aware that it was an exposed skeleton all those years.
Doc
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June 3rd, 2010 at 9:57:35 AM permalink
Quote: UWPeteO

As a structural engineer I can say with relative confidence that a few years exposed to Las Vegas weather won't do a thing to the strength of the steel. Usually the only concern with exposed steel is corrosion, and with the extreme lack of rain in Las Vegas there probably isn't any real worry. Not to mention the beams likely received a coat of shop paint and will be protected for quite some time.

Well, I'm not a structural engineer, and I don't remember most of what I did study about metallurgy. But I think UWPeteO may indeed be correct. At least the government seems to think the same way (which isn't necessarily a confidence builder, in itself.)

Have any of you ever visited the Marine Corps logistics center near Barstow, CA? Actually, closer to Yermo, I think. While they do a lot of reconditioning of machinery, they also store a tremendous amount of equipment. A lot of it is steel, just laying out in the open desert. It is interesting/amusing to see acres and acres of giant anchors, boat hulls, and such sitting in the desert so far from the sea. Anyway, I think the idea is that this environment does not do much damage long term to such materials; they just need to be cleaned up a bit and repainted before they are sent back into service. I suspect the same is true of steel structures in southern Nevada.
DJTeddyBear
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June 3rd, 2010 at 10:53:15 AM permalink
Quote: Doc

Have any of you ever visited the Marine Corps logistics center near Barstow, CA?

It's amazing what you can do on the internet with just a little info.

First I looked at Barstow. The rest was simple.

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FYI: I drew the yellow boxes around cars.
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I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Nareed
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June 3rd, 2010 at 11:15:32 AM permalink
There's some stretch of desert, I think in Arizona, where surplus airliners are kept (maybe also surplus military planes). As I recall all engine openings are covered to keep sand out, but otherwise the planes sit mostly unprotected.
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Doc
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June 3rd, 2010 at 12:42:08 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

It's amazing what you can do on the internet with just a little info.

First I looked at Barstow. The rest was simple.


I may have misdirected you just a little. I think your images are from the main base, very close to Barstow. I think it is actually called Nemo, as in the clown fish.

(Edit: Senility sometimes makes me forgetful. I now remember that it was not "Nemo" but Nebo, not at all like the clown fish.)

I was referring to the Yermo facility, a bit farther to the east.

Using Google Maps, search for Daggett, CA, then look northward on Daggett-Yermo road. Before you get to I-15, there is a large facility to the east. The main processing building does rehab on tanks, PT boats, and a zillion other things that the Marines use. There are a number of warehouses south and west of the main building, with full rail line service. I was talking about the things that are stored in the open air: boats, military vehicles, etc.

I am terrible at interpreting satellite photos, but I think that if you look southwest of the intersection of E St. and 20th St., you will see a number of boats parked in the desert. I think that between 12th St. and 13th St. there are a large number of military vehicles parked (not the POVs in the employee lot across the street and tracks.) There used to be a large field of anchors, perhaps for major seagoing vessels, plus what I took to be marine mines (hopefully with the explosives stored elsewhere). I cannot pick out either of those types of equipment on Google Maps, so they may be gone or I might just not be recognizing them.
Wizard
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June 3rd, 2010 at 2:33:56 PM permalink
There is a big junkyard for civilian planes near Mojave, CA, called the Mojave Boneyard. I believe that is where they found the plane for the crash scene in Lost. I think the one in Ariz is mainly military.
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Nareed
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June 3rd, 2010 at 3:01:40 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

There is a big junkyard for civilian planes near Mojave, CA, called the Mojave Boneyard. I believe that is where they found the plane for the crash scene in Lost. I think the one in Ariz is mainly military.



Right! That's the one.

It seems when I think of large stretches of desert, I automatically bring up Arizona.

As I recall it's part boneyard, part long-term parking for surplus aircraft.
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am19psu
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June 3rd, 2010 at 4:14:22 PM permalink
There is a boneyard outside Tuscon, AZ, too, if that is what you were thinking of.
Nareed
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June 3rd, 2010 at 4:21:28 PM permalink
Quote: am19psu

There is a boneyard outside Tuscon, AZ, too, if that is what you were thinking of.



No, I meant the Mojave boneyard. The one in Arizona is for military planes mostly.
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FleaStiff
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March 4th, 2013 at 1:23:37 AM permalink
Malaysia's Genting to buy Echelon from Boyd according to Wall Street Journal.

Bloomberg: Will be turned into Resorts World in 2015. Mainly slots.

The company runs the Resorts World Casino at Aqueduct race track in New York City, the top-grossing U.S. slot machine parlor, and is pursuing one in Miami. The uncompleted Echelon became a symbol of U.S. real estate excesses and Las Vegas’s woes after Boyd stopped construction in August 2008.

Bloomberg:
"...Genting will pay $350 million in cash for the 87-acre site, once home to the Stardust, Las Vegas-based Boyd said today in a statement. Boyd took an impairment charge of about $994 million in the fourth quarter, increasing its adjusted loss more than ninefold from a year earlier. "

What a bargain! The 87 acres alone is worth three times that at pre-crash prices. The existing construction is a bonus.

The fact that it will be nothing but slots is disappointing but at least Boyd Gaming can breathe a sigh of relief as Boyd was soon going to be faced with paying to decorate the site so as to lessen its negative impact as abandoned construction.
Ayecarumba
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March 5th, 2013 at 3:56:22 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Malaysia's Genting to buy Echelon from Boyd according to Wall Street Journal.

Bloomberg: Will be turned into Resorts World in 2015. Mainly slots.

The company runs the Resorts World Casino at Aqueduct race track in New York City, the top-grossing U.S. slot machine parlor, and is pursuing one in Miami. The uncompleted Echelon became a symbol of U.S. real estate excesses and Las Vegas’s woes after Boyd stopped construction in August 2008.

Bloomberg:
"...Genting will pay $350 million in cash for the 87-acre site, once home to the Stardust, Las Vegas-based Boyd said today in a statement. Boyd took an impairment charge of about $994 million in the fourth quarter, increasing its adjusted loss more than ninefold from a year earlier. "

What a bargain! The 87 acres alone is worth three times that at pre-crash prices. The existing construction is a bonus.

The fact that it will be nothing but slots is disappointing but at least Boyd Gaming can breathe a sigh of relief as Boyd was soon going to be faced with paying to decorate the site so as to lessen its negative impact as abandoned construction.



I don't believe it will be slots only. Their target market has got to be Asian Baccarat players. The biggest winner may be the Sahara... This project should keep them alive if they can hang on until it opens.
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tringlomane
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March 5th, 2013 at 4:30:10 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I don't believe it will be slots only. Their target market has got to be Asian Baccarat players.



Yeah...ALL casinos are "mainly slots". But they would be stupid not to have any table games, especially baccarat which is hot.
SACR
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April 8th, 2013 at 12:11:35 AM permalink
As someone who enjoyed the Stardust, it is a shame they tore it down for this.
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