Poll

2 votes (12.5%)
No votes (0%)
7 votes (43.75%)
7 votes (43.75%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (12.5%)
2 votes (12.5%)
3 votes (18.75%)
5 votes (31.25%)
1 vote (6.25%)

16 members have voted

ididntseethatco
ididntseethatco
Joined: Dec 23, 2021
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December 23rd, 2021 at 4:53:24 PM permalink
If this game is indeed 129%, are we to assume that the Wizard's advice on never vulturing a machine with 1X on trips to be incorrect?
Mooseton
Mooseton
Joined: Sep 6, 2010
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December 24th, 2021 at 7:19:48 PM permalink
For Christ’s sake could you figure it out on your own
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try
ididntseethatco
ididntseethatco
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December 25th, 2021 at 11:14:37 AM permalink
Sorry. I guess this must be a very lucrative game to vulture. Shhhh
ChallengedMilly
ChallengedMilly
Joined: Jul 25, 2021
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December 26th, 2021 at 12:51:02 PM permalink
It definitely feels like there might be some cool potential with gold x, but I dunno if anyone has figured it out mathematically yet.
CroquetIsOK
CroquetIsOK
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Hunterhill
December 28th, 2021 at 7:47:53 PM permalink
As 3for3 mentioned earlier in this thread, there are two important factors to consider besides just the EV of the current hand:

1. A multiplier is far more valuable if it is cleared by multiple hits in the same round of play rather than by just one hit.

2. If a multiplier is not hit, then unlike in Ultimate X, it doesn’t go away. It stays on the screen to be increased by the next upgrade and to be hit on a later potentially more valuable dealt hand. If it is hit, then the machine immediately moves from a more valuable state to a less valuable one. In a sense, hitting a multiplier is converting virtual “state-value” into coin credits….if the multiplier is not hit then the state value remains to be converted later.

Of course, the goal of the vulture is to convert state-value into credits as quickly as possible. But if the goal is to maximize long-run revenue per coin wagered, then the strategic considerations are more complex. In the case of a dealt full house 33344 with 1x on FH and 9X on quad 3’s, the “error” of standing on the house is not really 43.732655 push-ups. Rather it is 43.733 - (change in expected value of the multiplier state between the two actions considered), which is actually quite a bit less than 43. It’s actually possible that standing on the house is long-run optimal. I can report back the exact difference in value for this hand after the holidays.

In developing this game, Action noticed many situations where optimal play was to avoid hitting the current multiplier in order to save the multiplier for a more valuable later hand, either because a later hand was more likely to generate multiple hits or to allow time for the multiplier to grow larger. I can post several weird funky examples here after the holidays.
CroquetIsOK
CroquetIsOK
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December 28th, 2021 at 7:59:24 PM permalink
Quote: MrBrain3


Unlike other video poker games, it appears that the pay table, multipliers, and rules do not give all of the information needed to understand the action of the game completely. In particular, there is no exact description of exactly which multipliers are increased given specific starting paying hands. I am mostly figuring it out from having read some descriptions, watched some videos, and played the game on video poker dot com some, but I am still unclear on some of the specifics.

Does anybody have complete information on exactly which multipliers are increased given specific dealt hands, for all of the games (triple-, five-, and ten-play, all games)? I would like to perform an analysis of the game, at least for some specific game/pay table/multiplier configurations. But I cannot do this if I am not sure on which multipliers will be increased for each dealt hand.

Thank you!
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The machine’s help screen is vague on this point. But the official IGT par-sheet for each pay-schedule gives the complete rules on which dealt categories increase which multipliers. There is some slight variation among the different families of games.
CroquetIsOK
CroquetIsOK
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Mission146Hunterhill
December 28th, 2021 at 8:08:56 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

My Other Observations

1.) I think the idea behind this game, fairly obviously, is to compel players to continue playing the game by getting them to, "Chase," those big multipliers on the quads. Casual players will often find themselves getting smacked in the teeth on ten-play, as they will frequently hit the quads on only one of the ten-hands all the while betting 100 credits per hand. 3600 credits, for one example, is not exactly a windfall jackpot when you're betting 100 credits per hand.

2.) One aspect of regular UX that might annoy some players is how frequently they might be dealt something like a Straight-Flush-FH on a game like Bonus Poker or DDB just to basically completely strike out on the following hand. That feeling will be mitigated at least somewhat as players can play hands at peak multiplier value (assuming they get them there in the first place) until the result(s) in question is(are) hit.

3.) Since multipliers will only disappear via being hit on one (or only a few) possible hands at a time (ex: you'll almost never hit Quad Aces on the same play that you've also hit Quad 2,3,4...would require throwing away an entire hand or only holding one card to even be possible) that's another aspect that's more likely to keep people playing. With regular UX, in addition to not having enough credits, another, "Natural stopping point," would be completely striking out on a hand and not having any multipliers for the following hand. That generally won't be the case with this game as almost all future plays will have at least one multiplier result to work with.
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These comments are dead on and mostly explain why the game exists.
100xOdds
100xOdds
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
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CroquetIsOK
December 29th, 2021 at 8:47:31 AM permalink
Quote: CroquetIsOK

The machine’s help screen is vague on this point. But the official IGT par-sheet for each pay-schedule gives the complete rules on which dealt categories increase which multipliers. There is some slight variation among the different families of games.
link to original post

Link to par sheet :)
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
CroquetIsOK
CroquetIsOK
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100xOdds
January 22nd, 2022 at 8:52:49 PM permalink
The IGT par-sheet files are not mine to share. But I can provide the exact rules for the 10-play Bonus pay schedule that was featured in the video that started this thread. Keep in mind that these parameters are only for 10-play and only for the Bonus Poker genre; they're different for 5-play or 3-play.

In the table below, the "Boosted Cats" column shows which multiplier categories are boosted one level if the dealt hand is in the category that starts the row.
Hand Pay Mult Sequence Boosted Cats
RF 8000 {1}
SF 250 {1}
4K_Ace 400 {1, 4, 9}
4K_234 200 {1, 4, 9}
4K_JQK 125 {3, 4, 9}
4K_5-T 125 {1, 4, 9}
FH 35 {1,3,6,7,8,9,10} All K4's
Flush 25 {1,3,4,6,8,9} FH, all K4's
Straight 20 {1,3,4,6,7} Flush, FH, K4_5-T, K4_JQK
3K 15 {1,3,4,5} St, Flush, FH
2Pair 10 {1} 3K, St, Flush
JOB 5 {1} 3K, St, Flush


On powerup, the game starts out in an initial state with 9X on 4K_Ace, 9X on 4K_234, 9X on 4K_5-T, 3X on 4K_JQK, 4X on Flush and 4X on Straight. Furthermore, if the game ever reaches the state where all of the sequences are at their lowest level (3X on K4_JQK and 1X on everything else), then the machine will automatically reset the multipliers to the initial powerup state. Thus the powerup multiplier state is also a "reset state" that prevents the machine from ever being in a state where all sequences are at smallest values.

With these parameters, the long-run optimal return to player is 98.238096 % of the wager. If the player chooses to play the suboptimal strategy of maximizing the expected pay on each hand, regardless of the future state of the machine, then the long-run RTP for this strategy is 95.61005 % of the wager. This 2.6% difference is unusual and results from the large 9X multipliers on the K4's. In most versions of UX-Gold, playing to maximize the EV of each hand only costs the player an extra 0.2% to 0.5% compared to the optimal return.

The return to player on a single round played with the multipliers in the initial power-up state is 105.3286 % of the wager for this particular set of parameters. In most versions, the power-up return to player is in the range 98%-100%.

About the "reset" state: I've heard a rumor that the first versions of UX Gold in casinos had an unintended bug in the logic of when the machine is reset to the powerup state, which resulted in an added 0.5 % return to the player above the listed optimal return in the par-sheet. I do not know this for certain, and I do not know if such machines are still powered and available.
Last edited by: CroquetIsOK on Jan 22, 2022
3for3
3for3
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January 23rd, 2022 at 6:57:57 AM permalink
Probably very rare, but if you find a machine that has just one multiplier, it might pay to try to erase that one. I tend to doubt it.

The bigger surprise to me is that maximizing the current play only costs ~0.5%. In some game states, that seems so far off as to be laughable. I haven't done it in a while, but I think optimal single hand play is to throw away a pay pair for a high value gut shot straight. I am sure there are other examples that fit these parameters as well, where the right one time only play will lead to a very likely 1/10 result, eliminating a great multiplier that might be much more valuable.

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