VP in Michigan

I have actively been trying to learn video poker for some time.I have a couple software I practice with and online with wizard of odds.The trouble is it is almost impossible to find a 9-6-3 game or even a 8-5-2. Most are 7 -5 2 and I am not doing well on those.Is it because they are owned and operated by the Indians or is this the same elsewhere.Hard to make money to go to Vegas and Atlantic City etc with odds like this.

I would not say it was due to being Native owned but more due to lack of competition. The less casinos there are then the less they need to compete for customers and thus less favorable pay tables.

Quote: dennisq

I have actively been trying to learn video poker for some time.I have a couple software I practice with and online with wizard of odds.The trouble is it is almost impossible to find a 9-6-3 game or even a 8-5-2. Most are 7 -5 2 and I am not doing well on those.Is it because they are owned and operated by the Indians or is this the same elsewhere.Hard to make money to go to Vegas and Atlantic City etc with odds like this.

I assume you are talking about 7-5 Jacks or better, that's horrible, it returns a little over 96% if you play 800 hands per hour at the .25 level you should be losing over $38 an hour even with Royals.

I'm not sure what class of machines you're dealing with, but with a paytable like that, I would stay far away.

In AC and Vegas you can find much better pay tables. 9/6 Jacks can be found with some effort. A few places even have 100% + machines. A few Vegas casinos offer Full pay deuces wild @ 100.7 but even then, as you put it, "Hard to make money". You must add something more like drawings, special offers via mail, promotions.

Good machines have been dwindling over the years usually the good machines are excluded from promotions or they downgrade the comps and mailers.

There's a .5 loose deuces wild at The D downtown thats over 1% but that's really just a novelty you won't make much on that

I beginning to see and think that VP is not such a great deal anymore and should switch to mastering Blackjack.

Quote: dennisq

I beginning to see and think that VP is not such a great deal anymore and should switch to mastering Blackjack.

Welcome, dennisq. What are your goals regarding blackjack? Do you want to learn basic strategy, do some basic counting or something more?

LOL I have a type a personality so I have to be not mediocre. Basic strategy and progress from there. I tried playing a litle morethan a year ago when a dealer said he would educate me the best he was allowed but the others on the table did not like the idea so that is why I chose VP.But it is always better to start at the beginning.

Quote: dennisq

I beginning to see and think that VP is not such a great deal anymore and should switch to mastering Blackjack.

What are your goals period?

Do you mind telling us approximately what your bankroll is?

IMO you need a bigger bankroll for BJ unless you're playing something like Aces and match plays. Will you be comfortable hole carding?

If you pick your spots well in video poker you can get practically risk free advantages, however stuff like that isn't common especially if you don't have enough casinos to choose from unless you're willing to travel. I have no clue what the gaming is like there in Michigan. I seem to remember hearing they do run big money giveaways, free play, gas card packages. There's probably some hidden play/angle.

All the casinos here in Michigan are operated by various Indian tribes and according to American Casino Guide are not required to report anything. There is only 1 or 2 casinos worth traveling to. Four Winds being one about 3 hours from me. They have great promotions and at least have the 8-5-2 vp machines.They have have 9-6-3 machines but are in the $5 and up machines in the high roller section so that leaves me out. What are my goals .hmm I want to make money as do most of us but I really do enjoy just playing.I usually go with 400-500 when I do go. and would love to go more often but usually have to replenish that bankroll after each visit.By the way the Buffet at Four Winds on Sat night is awesome.But I usually get 2 nights free, free buffett and even most of the time 80 in free play monthly. But I want to essentially be able to supplement retirement in a few years so have some time to learn.I hope I answered your questions

"But I want to essentially be able to supplement retirement in a few years so have some time to learn."

To do that you need to work at your current job for more years. For every successful blackjack AP on this board there are probably 50-100 who failed. I would also bet that the successful blackjack APers had more than 2 casinos to choose from. Realistically your hope should be to find ways not to lose as much money doing your gambling hobby during your retirement.

LOL this forum is full of good news. Yes agree that's why I am practicing and learning while I am still working..I have no idea about blackjack yet have not begun learning,My efforts have been on VP.There are plenty of casinos that offer BJ just not good VP machines. If this forum is for professional gamblers I apologize for not seeing that.I was looking for more an informational forum where I could get suggestions on how to .

Quote: dennisq

All the casinos here in Michigan are operated by various Indian tribes and according to American Casino Guide are not required to report anything. There is only 1 or 2 casinos worth traveling to. Four Winds being one about 3 hours from me. They have great promotions and at least have the 8-5-2 vp machines.They have have 9-6-3 machines but are in the $5 and up machines in the high roller section so that leaves me out. What are my goals .hmm I want to make money as do most of us but I really do enjoy just playing.I usually go with 400-500 when I do go. and would love to go more often but usually have to replenish that bankroll after each visit.By the way the Buffet at Four Winds on Sat night is awesome.But I usually get 2 nights free, free buffett and even most of the time 80 in free play monthly. But I want to essentially be able to supplement retirement in a few years so have some time to learn.I hope I answered your questions

1. "Operated by Indian tribes" isn't a problem, so long as they're fair. The potential problem is that the regulating authority may be the same as the operating authority (the tribe), and they may give preferential treatment to themselves in a dispute. While I have no direct experience in your case, the reality is that if they're cheating, they'll eventually get found out, and the players will stop playing there - which is a more detrimental problem to the house long term than any gain from a gaff could be.

2. I have no idea what an "8-5-2" or a "9-6-3" machine is. Do these machines have common names, that we might recognize? (8-5 Bonus Poker, 9-6 JoB, DDB, etc?)

3. I don't understand why you're left out of the "high roller" section. My local place (only another few hours away) has no problem with anyone walking into the high limit room. They're not persnickety. There's a 9/5 JoB machine there with no penalty for playing at 1 coin - RF @ 1 coin = 800. $200 can run a ridiculous amount of coin-in on that.

4. You want to make money, but you just enjoy playing. Video poker is not (directly) about making money - it allows you to put money into action at a relatively low edge (but high variance). Once your money is in action, you have a chance of winning big before you lose (and that chance gets better the smaller the edge is, since you lose slower with a smaller edge). If you keep playing forever, you will lose*. Once your money is in action, the house marketing department hopefully begins rewarding you for the vast amounts of action you run with useful offers.

5. Should you learn blackjack - Everyone who plays should have a fundamental understanding of at least 2 of the following 4 games - video poker, blackjack, texas hold'em, craps. With VP, that's how to compare paytables, a good understanding of simple strategies for JoB/BP and DW type games, and a very good understanding of the strategy for your preferred game. With BJ, that's an understanding of the difference between S17/H17, a thorough understanding of simple strategy (or, if you prefer, memorize all the basic strategies), a thorough understanding of the BS for the two games you most commonly play, and an understanding of the signals to hit, stand, double, split, and surrender on both face-up and handheld games.

I imagine there are similar guidelines for what to know about hold'em and craps, except those aren't my games. In some places - where they close down certain games at certain hours - video poker is the one that's available all the time the place is open.

The important part of being a better player is getting to play more while losing less. Playing more generally puts you in a more favorable light from marketing. Marketing is the group that sends you free play, free food vouchers, and free hotel rooms - and I hear they can send other enticements, too.

Let me suggest that many of the smaller places may appreciate your action more than the bigger places, even if the buffet isn't as good. If you're a medium sized fish, you can either look like a small fish in a big pond, or a big fish in a small pond. You have the option of choosing your pond.




*You will lose: almost every place I am aware of that is tribal run has a rule in their compact that the house has to have an edge. This is not necessarily the case with some non-tribal places (in, say, Nevada), where they are allowed to run some VP at 100+% return. The goal is to get more value in marketing promos than the cost of your losses; sometimes that's doable, sometimes not quite.

I don't believe the three Detroit area casinos are native American, I could be wrong. There's good vp in areas of Michigan, look at vpfree for a guide. Greektown in Detroit has 9/6 Jacks and 99.73 nsud, some of the casinos in the upper peninsula have a rare game, full pay pick 'em, which pays 99.9%, although I've heard comps in the UP are horrible at least for table play.

A lot of casinos that have full pay vp will have like 5 or 10 machines of full pay just so they can say they have 99% vp, then everything else is like 94-97 or 98%.

Quote: Dieter

1. "Operated by Indian tribes" isn't a problem, so long as they're fair. The potential problem is that the regulating authority may be the same as the operating authority (the tribe), and they may give preferential treatment to themselves in a dispute. While I have no direct experience in your case, the reality is that if they're cheating, they'll eventually get found out, and the players will stop playing there - which is a more detrimental problem to the house long term than any gain from a gaff could be.

Just to add a bit more here. Tribes in Michigan do have reporting requirements to the state and to the NIGC. The state will send gaming commission representatives into the casinos once per year to see that they are in compliance with the state-tribal compact. The state does not regulate the casinos directly but does review the yearly internal AUP audits and also reviews the casinos' financial statements. In regards to the NIGC, an annual audit conducted by an external audit company is required for all the tribal casinos and these audits are to be submitted to the NIGC. These are also AUP audits and financial audits. The AUP audit does include an audit of the gaming machines to ensure the software has not been altered. You can view the MICS and worksheets used by the auditors on the NIGC website.

Like Dieter stated the potential loss of long term revenue does serve as a good incentive not to cheat the customers with gaffed games.

The three casinos in Detroit are not tribally owned and are regulated by the state.

Quote: mcallister3200

A lot of casinos that have full pay vp will have like 5 or 10 machines of full pay just so they can say they have 99% vp, then everything else is like 94-97 or 98%.

it's accurate?

Soaring Eagle has pretty good video poker nothing AP worthy, but if you just want to play some 9/6 JoB or NSUD you'll have no trouble finding it. In terms of over 100% pay table machines you won't find it in this state.

Quote: Hubomba

Soaring Eagle has pretty good video poker nothing AP worthy, but if you just want to play some 9/6 JoB or NSUD you'll have no trouble finding it. In terms of over 100% pay table machines you won't find it in this state.

They have, or at least had 40/10/6 DDB for quarters. 99.96%