Why so little 9/6 Jacks or Better on the Strip ?

So at the 25 cent and 50 cent level, you can find 9/6 Jacks or Better Video Poker on the Strip at NYNY and at Treasure Island. I played a little at both on my last trip. And when I played, there were plenty of seats available, so it's not like that game/paytable was even that popular.

So, why wouldn't CET sprinkle in a few 9/6 games at their properties ?

It seems to me that not offering any decent VP is "penny wise and pound foolish", although most of the casinos don't offer it. For example, as a VP player I would try to steer my group to NYNY or TI. They go off and play slots, and I get to play a decent VP game. Everyone's happy.

I did see on VPFREE2 that there may be a few more places with 9/6 JoB at the $ 1 level. But most of it was SPIN-POKER, and that would require 3 x 5 at the $ 1 level, right ? I don't recall having played any Spin-Poker, but I think that's how it works.

Quote: JohnnyQ

But most of it was SPIN-POKER, and that would require 3 x 5 at the $ 1 level, right ? I don't recall having played any Spin-Poker, but I think that's how it works.

My recollection of spin poker is that you can play it as single line, or 3 line, or 9 line (or other), at between 1-5 coins per line.

The "unique" thing about spin poker (vs other multi-line VP) is that those 9 lines are made out of various permutations of 3 lines worth of cards.

You might try one of the online simulators.

I guess like 6:5 BJ people will play the short pay machines so they offer very little full pay versions. You can indeed play Spin Poker and other multi line machines as a single line game, its just not immediately obvious how. Usually it involves fiddling with the on screen controls. You can bet 1x5 coins on a spin poker machine for a per hand bet of $5, if you wish. On the strip I have found such machines at MGM Grand, Cosmo, Excalibur (warning - depressing high limit room to play in), Luxor, and Treasure Island. I don't play at the NYNY machines due to the fact that they don't give you mlife points on those. Also, TI has the slowest full pay JoB machines ever. Those are unplayable as well, IMO.

Quote: Sigsev

You can indeed play Spin Poker and other multi line machines as a single line game, its just not immediately obvious how. Usually it involves fiddling with the on screen controls. You can bet 1x5 coins on a spin poker machine for a per hand bet of $5

Thanks, good to know. I may check that out next trip.

Quote: Sigsev

Also, TI has the slowest full pay JoB machines ever. Those are unplayable as well, IMO.

I don't like a game that deals too slowly. But I didn't notice that as being objectionable at TI.

The slow machines at TI I played were right in front of the high limit area in a bank of 6. I hopped between a few and I found them all too slow. If I wasn't doing a new member promotion I would have just left :/

Luxor has 9/6 JoB at the high limit bar for dollars too.

Also any 25/50/100 play machines or any Super Times Pay machine, you can play one line for max bet as long as there is no min bet requirement. MGM has 100 play with Quick Quads with 9/6 JoB for dollars for example.

As for casinos not offering 9/6 JoB for quarters or lower on the strip, simply doesn't make enough money for the house today. SLS got rid of their 99.9%+ machines for quarters or lower last month. :( Probably were not happy with the lack of profit. They would rather offer some crap penny slot instead.

duplicate

Because offering 9/6 on valuable strip real estate is stupid.

VP players who look for good paytables and play close to optimal strategy don't make the house a lot of money, and may actually cost the house money after comps and other costs of having the machine there.

The casinos want the suckers who play short pay tables and play lousy strategy.

monte carlo has $5 and $10 9/6 JOB at least on the main floor not long ago. i played it a while ago, dont know if still there. i assume they stil do. but idk.

as to why -- i prsume because they [the house[ doesn't make enough money off of such a low HE game. and those that play it more likely know the right strategy like mentioned above.

ballys' at one point had a 99.99% return JOB game (90/9/6) but only lasted for a few days. it ws a $1 denom machine. i beieve it was an error in whoever setup the machine / apytable.

i believe MGM, luxor, MC, and perhaps other MGM/MLife casinos have 9/6 JOB. I though aria has $5 9/6 JOB -- but believe on at least triple line. I think caesras may have a $100 9/6 JOB machine (or maybe 8/5 JOB, i forget).



ultimately -- it's because the casino makes more money from 9/5, 8/6, 8/5, 7/5 JOB than from 9/6 JOB -- especially considering 98.91% of las vegas strip players are re*arded and wil play any paytable with awfuls trategy.

Quote: JohnnyQ

So at the 25 cent and 50 cent level, you can find 9/6 Jacks or Better Video Poker on the Strip at NYNY and at Treasure Island.

When did this happen? The last time I was at TI, I couldn't even find 8/5 at 25c level.

Right now, I have the end of August penciled in for my next trip (I got a decent price at PH through the CET semi-annual sale...but seriously - $29/night resort fee?); I'll have to check it out.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

When did this happen? The last time I was at TI, I couldn't even find 8/5 at 25c level.

To clarify, I meant that:

NYNY has 25 cent 9/6 Jacks or Better VP.

TI has 50 cent 9/6 Jacks or Better VP. I think they have had this for a long time. Anyway, it was there last week.

Quote: RS

ultimately -- it's because the casino makes more money from 9/5, 8/6, 8/5, 7/5 JOB than from 9/6 JOB -- especially considering 98.91% of las vegas strip players are re*arded and wil play any paytable with awfuls trategy.

Deuces fan? That might be the best deuces strip paytable after the SLS downgrade unfortunately. MB still has 99.2% Loose Deuces, but that game is rough ride for sure.

because casinos as mathematically challenged as they are read stuff on the internet saying 9/6 jacks holds only .46% and they scramble to short pay tables. if I'm a host and can see the true Theo loss on whale #1 with 5% on $5 slots and whale #2 only on 100 play 9/6 whale 1 can have my first born, whereas whale 2 can get 2 for 1 off a weekday breakfast buffet.

Quote: djatc

because casinos as mathematically challenged as they are read stuff on the internet saying 9/6 jacks holds only .46% and they scramble to short pay tables. if I'm a host and can see the true Theo loss on whale #1 with 5% on $5 slots and whale #2 only on 100 play 9/6 whale 1 can have my first born, whereas whale 2 can get 2 for 1 off a weekday breakfast buffet.

100 play dollars? I would be happy with whale 2 playing 9/6 JoB...as long as i'm not giving too much in comps back. Each round the house will win $2.30 with perfect play on average. If he/she has the turbo button on, that's lots per hour.

Quote: tringlomane

100 play dollars? I would be happy with whale 2 playing 9/6 JoB...as long as i'm not giving too much in comps back. Each round the house will win $2.30 with perfect play on average. If he/she has the turbo button on, that's lots per hour.

On the same amount of coin in. $5 slot player and $1 VP player both put in $100k on a weekend. Let's change 100 play to 10 play instead since it'll only be like 200 hands on 100 play.

Slot player theo loss on 5% - $5000

VP player theo loss 0.46% - $460

Assuming a low end of 20% comp back from theo losses the slot player gets $1000 back, whereas the VP player gets $92. The slot player probably has RFB covered, whereas the video poker player makes just enough to cover a room provided he gets the regular room, and maybe a couple of buffets.

This is also factoring that the machines are rated based on true hold. I've heard VP set at 3% on very good games so I'm not sure what the hosts think we are losing playing full pay games. Somebody PM me this information if it's sensitive.

If your comparing on the same amount of coin-in, then yeah, I agree. But I feel like the average casual VP player bets a bit more than the casual slot player per round.

I've had no trouble finding 9/6 jacks or better 25 cent machines in Reno, but you have to check machine by machine around the casinos. Eldorado and Silver Legacy have many.

What's been disappointing is doing 10 single play samplings on three of these machines. Collecting each payout (including even money) I've gotten 40%, 70% and 100% payouts. For short duration play my expectation is about 85% return (with wide variability) unless there is a win above 3 of a kind.

At the end of the week I've settled on a slow bleed of single dollar bets on these machines. To get enough bets to statistically expect a 4 of a kind would take a year, and I only have a day to go. I'm down to sheer lucky bets.

I am reminded on every three out of four bets that the goal is for me to lose, not win. That's my most valuable lesson on this trip. I'll take this lesson (and strategy) back home where a 9/6 machine is unheard of.

Quote: djatc

This is also factoring that the machines are rated based on true hold. I've heard VP set at 3% on very good games so I'm not sure what the hosts think we are losing playing full pay games. Somebody PM me this information if it's sensitive.

Very few casinos rate machine play based on theoretical win. Most use a points system based on coin-in and the point rate is the same across all of the same game type. E.g., Caesars Total Rewards site says you can earn 1 point per $5 play in slots and 1 point per $10 play in VP. (https://totalrewards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10)
Except for a few places, those points accrue at the same rate per coin-in regardless of which game you're playing. That means if you play a game with a lower edge, you're getting back more points per dollar theo than if you play a tighter game.

Quote: MathExtremist

Very few casinos rate machine play based on theoretical win. Most use a points system based on coin-in and the point rate is the same across all of the same game type. E.g., Caesars Total Rewards site says you can earn 1 point per $5 play in slots and 1 point per $10 play in VP. (https://totalrewards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10)
Except for a few places, those points accrue at the same rate per coin-in regardless of which game you're playing. That means if you play a game with a lower edge, you're getting back more points per dollar theo than if you play a tighter game.

But what about bounceback mailers? I assume those vary among machine banks at most places?

Quote: MathExtremist

Very few casinos rate machine play based on theoretical win. Most use a points system based on coin-in and the point rate is the same across all of the same game type. E.g., Caesars Total Rewards site says you can earn 1 point per $5 play in slots and 1 point per $10 play in VP. (https://totalrewards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10)
Except for a few places, those points accrue at the same rate per coin-in regardless of which game you're playing. That means if you play a game with a lower edge, you're getting back more points per dollar theo than if you play a tighter game.

I dont know about that. For point accumulation you are right, coin in = points. I have gotten a printout of my play from hosts or players club people and its a basic text document that has theo win on there somewhere. From that and my coin in i can determine what they think my theo is. This information is valuable because it can determine whether a place thinks im a winner or loser, and i can get comps accordingly. Always fun to get a steakhouse comp when actually we give 0% to the house.

Quote: thhq

What's been disappointing is doing 10 single play samplings on three of these machines. Collecting each payout (including even money) I've gotten 40%, 70% and 100% payouts. For short duration play my expectation is about 85% return (with wide variability) unless there is a win above 3 of a kind.

I'm sorry, are you trying to sample your way to the 99.+% return? By playing one bet at a time? I think you need to be prepared to play at least 40000 hands, not 10.

Quote: djatc

I dont know about that. For point accumulation you are right, coin in = points. I have gotten a printout of my play from hosts or players club people and its a basic text document that has theo win on there somewhere. From that and my coin in i can determine what they think my theo is. This information is valuable because it can determine whether a place thinks im a winner or loser, and i can get comps accordingly. Always fun to get a steakhouse comp when actually we give 0% to the house.

Yes, I was specifically referring to points, not overall reinvestment. A smart casino understands exactly what your ADT is and markets to you accordingly.

No, I'm not sitting down for 40,000 plays. Just 10, or maybe 100. For that I get free drinks that cover the anticipated 15% hit. I don't expect to get anywhere near 99% payout, for which I would need a population of flushes.

Just a few 10 play samples is enough to figure out how fast the short-term player gets screwed. Without a jackpot above 3 of a kind these 9/6 machines will take the whole wager most of the time. And Nevada 9/6 is WAY better than any Oregon lottery video poker pay tables. $20 is gone before they even offer you a drink.

Now back in Oregon I just ran three ten play samples on a Triple Trouble, which is the closest game to JoB readily available in Oregon lottery these days. Win %'s were 20%, 50% and 60%, and there were no wins above 3 of a kind. Most wins were 1:1 (two pairs pay at 1:1, the same as face pairs). Based on this experiment my personal expectation for short term (10-100 plays) Oregon lottery Triple Trouble is 40% payout - about half my expected Reno 9/6 payout. My experimental $5 lasted less than a minute and I was playing slowly. No free drinks were served.

I cannot see any good reason why I should throw 40,000 bets at one of these lottery machines in the expectation that I could at some point beat the theoretical RTP (ca 90%) and make money. Short term I lost $5, long term I'd lose my house.