So how much do you chase perfection with regards to optimal play?
My question is how close to perfect do you try to get? We're human after all and some mistakes are inevitable, so I'm wondering if you guys consider it "acceptable" to be at 99.80% accuracy for example or if anything less than 100% is unacceptable to the AP crowd? The question of time vs. accuracy comes into play too with minor errors I think, since the more coin in you get from playing faster may negate the additional return from playing 100% correct, so interested to see everyone's thoughts here.
I guess people are more interested in swallowing 100 chicken nuts.
Quote: scubatim84Ok, so I've taught myself FPDW, NSUD, JoB and DDB...these 4 games seem to be the most prevalent ones out there with +EV (and DDB by far has to be the most fun, although FPDW is a close second).
My question is how close to perfect do you try to get? We're human after all and some mistakes are inevitable, so I'm wondering if you guys consider it "acceptable" to be at 99.80% accuracy for example or if anything less than 100% is unacceptable to the AP crowd? The question of time vs. accuracy comes into play too with minor errors I think, since the more coin in you get from playing faster may negate the additional return from playing 100% correct, so interested to see everyone's thoughts here.
I play all those.
I allways play with a strategy sheet.
I dont check it much but it helps sometimes.
Regardless I know I am not perfect.
2 wild is easy. JOB is pretty straightforward, DDb a bit complicated.
I know I make a few mistakes but not really giving up much.
If I make a mistake, probabbly going with 2nd best way too play a hand.
I'm just a ploppy, play for fun. Play at a moderate pace, trying to cut down on mistakes but have a good pace. Ying yang
Quote: scubatim84Ok, so I've taught myself FPDW, NSUD, JoB and DDB...these 4 games seem to be the most prevalent ones out there with +EV (and DDB by far has to be the most fun, although FPDW is a close second).
My question is how close to perfect do you try to get? We're human after all and some mistakes are inevitable, so I'm wondering if you guys consider it "acceptable" to be at 99.80% accuracy for example or if anything less than 100% is unacceptable to the AP crowd? The question of time vs. accuracy comes into play too with minor errors I think, since the more coin in you get from playing faster may negate the additional return from playing 100% correct, so interested to see everyone's thoughts here.
It seems like a pretty simple calculation to me, at least, if you're looking at it in terms of playing perfect strategy v. playing the Simple Strategy.
Simple Strategy yields a player an advantage of .007085 * 5 units * hands/hour, so let's say you play 800 hands per hour:
800 * .007085 * 5 = 28.34 units/hour expectation
Okay, so the question is, how many hands would you have to play per hour to achieve the same expectation with Optimal Strategy?
x * .007620 * 5 = 28.34 ---Solve for X
x = 743.832021
Therefore, if you think you can still get in 744 hands per hour, then you should play the Optimal Strategy and look up the plays when you need to. This can also be expressed as a percentage if you play a different number of hands per hour:
743.832021/800 = 0.92979002625 or 92.979002625%
Thus, if you think you can play 92.979002625% as fast with Optimal, or faster, then you should play Optimal.
Example:
900 * .007085 * 5 = 31.8825 units/hour
(900 * .92979002625) * .007620 * 5 = 31.8825000001 units/hour which would be 836.81 or 837 hands/hour
Quote: Mission146It seems like a pretty simple calculation to me, at least, if you're looking at it in terms of playing perfect strategy v. playing the Simple Strategy.
Simple Strategy yields a player an advantage of .007085 * 5 units * hands/hour, so let's say you play 800 hands per hour:
800 * .007085 * 5 = 28.34 units/hour expectation
Okay, so the question is, how many hands would you have to play per hour to achieve the same expectation with Optimal Strategy?
x * .007620 * 5 = 28.34 ---Solve for X
x = 743.832021
Therefore, if you think you can still get in 744 hands per hour, then you should play the Optimal Strategy and look up the plays when you need to. This can also be expressed as a percentage if you play a different number of hands per hour:
743.832021/800 = 0.92979002625 or 92.979002625%
Thus, if you think you can play 92.979002625% as fast with Optimal, or faster, then you should play Optimal.
Example:
900 * .007085 * 5 = 31.8825 units/hour
(900 * .92979002625) * .007620 * 5 = 31.8825000001 units/hour which would be 836.81 or 837 hands/hour
Most hands are pretty brainless in the sense that there's only 1 correct way to play them, so I don't think optimal vs. simple strategy really costs that much in time, even with the consideration of penalty cards. I bet most people on here could play at least 93% as fast with optimal vs. simple strategy. The more interesting question is if someone mastered either strategy whether they could maintain 100% accuracy.
I'm thinking more along the lines of human error. For example, you have an unsuited 5689K. With most games, such as FPDW, the correct play is to keep the 4 to an inside straight. Say for whatever reason you don't see it and you ditch everything. Those kinds of errors are what I'm thinking about. The example is actually not a very good one, as that would be an easy inside straight to spot, but mainly I'm thinking of errors which may cost minimal coins that happen simply because people are human and will always make errors.
Not full pay but a pretty good game for my favorite bar to play video poker.
98.91 game with a progressive 1425.00 for about 99.32.
I like this bar a lot, game on the TV, buzz from the nearby crowd, a lot of fresh air being next to the expereience.
For playing fast, 2 wild is the game because you throw away completely so many initial hands
Do you have the actual statistics on that?Quote: terapined
For playing fast, 2 wild is the game because you throw away completely so many initial hands
Quote: AxelWolfDo you have the actual statistics on that?
No, i just figure less button pushing.
A lot of 2 wild, scan, nothing, draw button.
Other games, more holds, then draw.
I was wondering the ratios.Quote: terapined
Other games, more holds, then draw.
Quote: AxelWolfI was wondering the ratios.
Since it was relatively easy to do, I ran the figures. Here are the number of hands where the optimal play is to discard everything:
9/6 JoB and 8/5 BP: 84,360 (3.246%)
10/7/5 or 9/7/5 DB: 36,000 (1.385%)
9/6 DDB: 52,812 (2.032%)
9/7 TDB: 35,040 (1.348%)
9/6 TDB: 35,904 (1.381%)
35/8 AA: 17,400 (0.6695%) All American - I included this because of its many 2-to-a-straight-flush and 3-to-a-straight holds
FPDW: 495,528 (19.066%)
NSUD: 451,260 (17.363%)
9/4/4/3 BDW: 570,324 (21.944%)
So Deuces Wild variants indeed force the optimal player to discard the entire initial hand much more often than Jacks or Better variants do.
Quote: JBSince it was relatively easy to do, I ran the figures. Here are the number of hands where the optimal play is to discard everything:
9/6 JoB and 8/5 BP: 84,360 (3.246%)
10/7/5 or 9/7/5 DB: 36,000 (1.385%)
9/6 DDB: 52,812 (2.032%)
9/7 TDB: 35,040 (1.348%)
9/6 TDB: 35,904 (1.381%)
35/8 AA: 17,400 (0.6695%) All American - I included this because of its many 2-to-a-straight-flush and 3-to-a-straight holds
FPDW: 495,528 (19.066%)
NSUD: 451,260 (17.363%)
9/4/4/3 BDW: 570,324 (21.944%)
So Deuces Wild variants indeed force the optimal player to discard the entire initial hand much more often than Jacks or Better variants do.
As I would expect it to. I've played 2,000 hands of FPDW last night alone and its amazing how often you just throw everything away and hope for the best.
I've also noticed that the amount of hands involving penalty cards, if you're looking at perfect play vs. strategy play, is so minimal that I would challenge the notion that speed > perfect play given that there's only so fast you can go anyway before you start making big errors from not catching stuff before you hit draw again.
If you're playing a game with a 5% edge, errors aren't going to be too costly. If you're playing some FPDW or 100.xx%+ game, errors are going to hurt you more.
It also matters on which errors you make. Is it because you're playing too fast and missing pairs kinda frequently? Or are you missing those penalty cards because you don't have the strategy down cold? If it's the first, that's an easy fix -- play slower. If it's the second -- it doesn't really hurt you.
I was trying to tell someone in a different thread that the other day when he asked about some crazy penalty card scenario. Learn them and understand why but don't get all paranoid you're missing them and significantly slow your play down.Quote: RSLike what BBB said -- it's a function of your optimal edge, optimal speed, basic edge, basic speed.
If you're playing a game with a 5% edge, errors aren't going to be too costly. If you're playing some FPDW or 100.xx%+ game, errors are going to hurt you more.
It also matters on which errors you make. Is it because you're playing too fast and missing pairs kinda frequently? Or are you missing those penalty cards because you don't have the strategy down cold? If it's the first, that's an easy fix -- play slower. If it's the second -- it doesn't really hurt you.
I used to find it fun to find oddball hands and discuss them. There were a lot more 10/7 and FPDW etc around, I did a fair share of playing with a small advantage. It was fun then nowadays I want something way better.
Quote: RSIf you're playing a game with a 5% edge, errors aren't going to be too costly.
Where on earth would I find a game with a 5% edge? I would love to know. :) Was under the impression outside promos / multipliers FPDW was as good as it gets.
Quote: scubatim84Where on earth would I find a game with a 5% edge? I would love to know. :) Was under the impression outside promos / multipliers FPDW was as good as it gets.
5% edge would come from promotions and/or mail offers.
I believe there exists some version of loose deuces wild with a 101.xx% return. I think there's a $0.05 one at The D, if I'm not mistaken.
Playing and beating a game straight up -- FPDW or some point multiplier day so you have a 0.5% edge (or whatever) isn't all too great of a play. Much better off playing for mail, promotions, or a combination of them.
How about 18/7 KoB Joker Poker... seems to be quite a few tosses.
Quote: RS5% edge would come from promotions and/or mail offers.
I believe there exists some version of loose deuces wild with a 101.xx% return. I think there's a $0.05 one at The D, if I'm not mistaken.
Playing and beating a game straight up -- FPDW or some point multiplier day so you have a 0.5% edge (or whatever) isn't all too great of a play. Much better off playing for mail, promotions, or a combination of them.
Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah I know about the 101.xx% return at the D but like you said it's on nickels and I'm pretty sure it's exempt from slot club perks. Mailers and promos in the future is why I'm going to South Point next time...hear they're pretty generous and I can break even just off NSUD and their slot club while I'm there.
As an example, my win rate/ROI in Hold Em MTTs is likely higher if I 2 to 4 table, but when I have the energy I play up to 8. It's better in the long run. I'll make a few mistakes or miss a few opportunities, but putting in a few times more volume makes it worth it.
Quote: scubatim84Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah I know about the 101.xx% return at the D but like you said it's on nickels and I'm pretty sure it's exempt from slot club perks. Mailers and promos in the future is why I'm going to South Point next time...hear they're pretty generous and I can break even just off NSUD and their slot club while I'm there.
You earn points on the Loose Deuces machine, at least, you did December last year and April of this year.
As RS said the big edge plays are worth so much that not playing perfectly is not a big factor, and you will actually lose money trying to study it before playing. For example I never played DDB before and I had a very lucrative edge at the game (5-10%) that it was worth just sitting down. And no I won't disclose where or who was involved.... unless you send me $19.99.
My suggestion for any new person that wants to learn video poker is to learn Jacks or Better, then progress to Deuces Wild. Those 2 will cover the non-wild and wild games. If you are feeling adventurous tackle Jokers Wild, but I hate that game since there's so much weird strategy crap.
Progressive really grows fast here.
Yesterday around 1425, today 1538, over 100 bucks in 1 day so about 99.42.
Been playing it hard.
never hit a royal in Vegas
got a couple with deuces but those dont count.
Regardless of no Royal, doing great, playing a ton of VP and up about 150
Quote: djatcFor most straight up games your edge is so low that it's worth looking into perfect strategy, but I don't know anyone that would play straight through on 10/7 or FPDW nowadays unless they were bored or for some reason needed comps or points.
As RS said the big edge plays are worth so much that not playing perfectly is not a big factor, and you will actually lose money trying to study it before playing. For example I never played DDB before and I had a very lucrative edge at the game (5-10%) that it was worth just sitting down. And no I won't disclose where or who was involved.... unless you send me $19.99.
My suggestion for any new person that wants to learn video poker is to learn Jacks or Better, then progress to Deuces Wild. Those 2 will cover the non-wild and wild games. If you are feeling adventurous tackle Jokers Wild, but I hate that game since there's so much weird strategy crap.
Well, if there are no promos or multipliers going on and you don't live in a gambling town, you may not have a choice except to play VP straight up.
Sounds like if there are multipliers involved though speed may be the best bet. I plan to play on multiplier days at both Atlantis and Peppermill in Reno for example but I don't know what my slot club perks will be until I play a few hands and calculate it. May be worth going for speed, may not be that much since their slot club perks are based on theo.
Quote: scubatim84As I would expect it to. I've played 2,000 hands of FPDW last night alone and its amazing how often you just throw everything away and hope for the best.
I've also noticed that the amount of hands involving penalty cards, if you're looking at perfect play vs. strategy play, is so minimal that I would challenge the notion that speed > perfect play given that there's only so fast you can go anyway before you start making big errors from not catching stuff before you hit draw again.
Keep pounding away, and all your dreams will come true.
I saw an AP sit down and play NSUD and probably make $300 in errors in about 20 minutes, and that was only the ones I saw. Don't do that.
Quote: tongniIf you are going to play something for a long period of time, you might as well know it down cold. I almost always favor speed over accuracy though, as most things I play really, really benefit from speed.
I saw an AP sit down and play NSUD and probably make $300 in errors in about 20 minutes, and that was only the ones I saw. Don't do that.
I just got done with a 2 hour session at Peppermill...better than the lady who sat down next to me. Dropped in a $20 and then just started mashing buttons with no discernible pattern as fast as possible. I was dumbfounded once I noticed what she was doing. I thought the whole point of VP was the involvement of skill...if you want to just mash buttons not sure why you wouldn't just play slots instead.
Quote: scubatim84I just got done with a 2 hour session at Peppermill...better than the lady who sat down next to me. Dropped in a $20 and then just started mashing buttons with no discernible pattern as fast as possible. I was dumbfounded once I noticed what she was doing. I thought the whole point of VP was the involvement of skill...if you want to just mash buttons not sure why you wouldn't just play slots instead.
Sounds like slots would be a much better payback if she isn't holding on to anything valuable. Many confused people go to the casino it seems like...
Anyone playing video poker like you described was purposely trying to lose. Most people who don't really kniw or understand it. Play slow and cautious yet still make horrible plays.
Quote: scubatim84Yeah I didn't really understand it. When I saw her hold Ace Ten suited, which is to my knowledge not a correct play in any game and certainly not in the DDB she was playing, and then discarded another Ace Ten Suited next time she saw it, I just stopped watching the trainwreck and went back to what I was doing. While I AM married, insanity doesn't interest me, so I do try to avoid it. :)
If that was her worst mistake...then you exaggerated a bit. Since my last royal in Fall 2012, I have seen about 5 Royals posted on other forums made by just holding Ace-Ten suited all of which have been non-progressive and incorrect. The pics of the Royals have really irked me, but holding Ace-Ten suited isn't a major error and is the second best play barring pairs or straight flush draws. Even at 8/5 DDB it is only costs a dollar-level player 22 cents to make it (18 cents at 9/6 DDB and only a small 1.7 cents at 9/6 JoB). I previously assumed she wasn't holding anything or holding things that really punish her equity. Holding Ace-Ten suited is standard for a "Royal Chaser". What was the worst hold/non-hold you saw her make?
Now if she held an Ace over a low pair...now that's a significant equity killer. I had to train my g/f pretty hard on that one as she quickly realized on her own that she had a lower percentage of losing hands when just holding high cards vs. a low pair, but she would ignore that you get a 250+ credit win when you filled up quads from a pair on DDB... She also fell in love with DDB fast thanks to an early dealt 4 Aces which she redrew to Aces w/a kicker...she hasn't hit it one while actually playing DDB since...she did get another one while playing JoB at the penny level though...D'Oh!
Quote: tringlomaneIf that was her worst mistake...then you exaggerated a bit. Since my last royal in Fall 2012, I have seen about 5 Royals posted on other forums made by just holding Ace-Ten suited all of which have been non-progressive and incorrect. The pics of the Royals have really irked me, but holding Ace-Ten suited isn't a major error and is the second best play barring pairs or straight flush draws. Even at 8/5 DDB it is only costs a dollar-level player 22 cents to make it (18 cents at 9/6 DDB and only a small 1.7 cents at 9/6 JoB). I previously assumed she wasn't holding anything or holding things that really punish her equity. Holding Ace-Ten suited is standard for a "Royal Chaser". What was the worst hold/non-hold you saw her make?
Now if she held an Ace over a low pair...now that's a significant equity killer. I had to train my g/f pretty hard on that one as she quickly realized on her own that she had a lower percentage of losing hands when just holding high cards vs. a low pair, but she would ignore that you get a 250+ credit win when you filled up quads from a pair on DDB... She also fell in love with DDB fast thanks to an early dealt 4 Aces which she redrew to Aces w/a kicker...she hasn't hit it one while actually playing DDB since...she did get another one while playing JoB at the penny level though...D'Oh!
I saw her routinely just discard everything when there were high cards present. As I said, there was no discernible strategy...she certainly wasn't chasing royals by ignoring most high cards except aces (sometimes).
Quote: BTLWIThe last big royal I saw locally ($1 x 20 credits bet for $16,000) was on DDB the guy held AT diamonds - sounds like AT is the lucky 2 card royal hold!
Apparently. LOL
Quote: scubatim84I saw her routinely just discard everything when there were high cards present. As I said, there was no discernible strategy...she certainly wasn't chasing royals by ignoring most high cards except aces (sometimes).
Yeah, tossing a sole face card is a bigger error than holding AT suited. That costs a dollar player more like 64 cents per occurrence. Maybe she thought she was playing Deuces? lol AT suited is wrong in deuces too of course, but it's also not a large error.
Axel's theory fits well too. Pissed off at the person whose money she's gambling with.
Quote: 98ClubsJB
How about 18/7 KoB Joker Poker... seems to be quite a few tosses.
If you're talking about the 1-1-2-3-5-7-18-50-100-200-800 paytable (98.9372% return), you toss everything on 320,220 of the 2,869,685 hands (11.1587% of the time; just over 1 in 9 hands).
Quote: AxelWolfI'm not even going to read all this BS I seen someone say it was highly exaggerated I assumed that from his story in the first place. Tossing out high card's is a common mistake with some poppies they are looking for pair's or dealt pays.
Interesting how something I observed, which I commented on casually, suddenly became a highly exaggerated story within a day. Not sure what the point was of blowing a comment out of proportion but well done.
