Hazard
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May 22nd, 2012 at 7:57:55 AM
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Recently I got a request to post pages on the defunct casino games of Hazard and Faro. The analysis was easy, and lacking a better idea for the use of my time, I created a page on Hazard. Faro will be next.
Please have a look and let me know what you think.
Members with an interest in the etymology of the word Hazard may wish to visit a discussion of it in the Spanish word of the day thread.
Please have a look and let me know what you think.
Members with an interest in the etymology of the word Hazard may wish to visit a discussion of it in the Spanish word of the day thread.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 22nd, 2012 at 8:24:19 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
May 22nd, 2012 at 8:46:09 AM
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4th line:
"An explanation of Hazard of terminology"
5th line:
"the total that causes serves as the"
"An explanation of Hazard of terminology"
5th line:
"the total that causes serves as the"
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
May 22nd, 2012 at 8:48:20 AM
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Minor error in the 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph of the Rules section. I think it should read "....except Hazard allows the total that serves as the seven in craps..." (remove the extra word "causes" from the phrase).
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:05:15 AM
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Thanks for those corrections.
I know I've heard of Hazard before, but can't remember exactly where. It would not surprise me if it was addressed in John Scarne's book.
I know I've heard of Hazard before, but can't remember exactly where. It would not surprise me if it was addressed in John Scarne's book.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:25:55 AM
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Quote: WizardThanks for those corrections.
I know I've heard of Hazard before, but can't remember exactly where. It would not surprise me if it was addressed in John Scarne's book.
I'm looking at Scarne on Dice right now -- there are several sections on Hazard. Not for nothing, he also has a section on controlled dice shooting.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:34:45 AM
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Very cool. Thanks for including this!
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May 22nd, 2012 at 9:41:50 AM
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Since I am familiar with the game of Craps, it seems fairly straightforward. However, a reader who does not have that background may have a hard time envisioning how the betting in the game works. This is a tricky thing, since the game of Craps is pretty difficult to learn without seeing it in actual play.
Some details that I would like to see included:
-- Are odds bets part of the game?
-- Are the equivalent of "Come bets/hardways/props" part of the game?
-- What does the layout look like?
-- How is the "Main" tracked? Is there an "On-Off puck"?
Without really doing the math, my gut tells me that there would be a good play choosing the five or nine as the main, and placing the seven. What is the payout if you place the seven?
Thanks for this! I'll have to check out the Spanish word of the day thread, since I always thought this game (and the foundation of Craps) was French/Cajun in origin.
Some details that I would like to see included:
-- Are odds bets part of the game?
-- Are the equivalent of "Come bets/hardways/props" part of the game?
-- What does the layout look like?
-- How is the "Main" tracked? Is there an "On-Off puck"?
Without really doing the math, my gut tells me that there would be a good play choosing the five or nine as the main, and placing the seven. What is the payout if you place the seven?
Thanks for this! I'll have to check out the Spanish word of the day thread, since I always thought this game (and the foundation of Craps) was French/Cajun in origin.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:56:06 AM
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SN Ethier in his Doctrine of Chances 2010 book has a section on Faro (chapter 18) and a section on Hazard, both English and French versions, in the notes in the Craps section (starting page 517)
Interesting stuff.
Interesting stuff.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
May 22nd, 2012 at 12:20:55 PM
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Allan N. Wilson also has a section on Faro in his Casino Gamblers Guide.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
May 22nd, 2012 at 12:28:17 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesThe only place I ever heard this game mentioned is in The Worlds Greatest Blackjack Book, and the authour calls it Three Dice Hazard.
If Three Dice Hazard is the same as Grand Hazard, I think it's just another name for Sic Bo (at least according to the description in Scarne's Encyclopedia of Games). "Normal" Hazard is played with two dice.
May 22nd, 2012 at 12:46:09 PM
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Quote: Ayecarumba-- Are odds bets part of the game?
-- Are the equivalent of "Come bets/hardways/props" part of the game?
-- What does the layout look like?
-- How is the "Main" tracked? Is there an "On-Off puck"?
I have no idea. The answers to these questions may have been lost in the passage of time.
Quote: 7crapsSN Ethier in his Doctrine of Chances 2010 book has a section on Faro (chapter 18) and a section on Hazard, both English and French versions, in the notes in the Craps section (starting page 517) Interesting stuff.
Thanks. Ethier doesn't mention any additional bets but does clarify the terminology and history of the game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:00:17 PM
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I like the speculation that Craps evolved from Hazard using 7 as the Main. It rings true.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:24:51 PM
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Maybe I missed it, but the article promised to use craps terminology but later explain Hazard terminology after the rules, and Ididn't catch the promised explanation.
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:41:26 PM
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The Wizard's article includes a link for the Wikipedia Hazard article. That article says the same thing about Grand Hazard being similar to Sic Bo.Quote: ThatDonGuyIf Three Dice Hazard is the same as Grand Hazard, I think it's just another name for Sic Bo (at least according to the description in Scarne's Encyclopedia of Games). "Normal" Hazard is played with two dice.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 22nd, 2012 at 2:07:16 PM
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To make matters more or less confusing, Stewart Ethier in The Doctine of Chances says that the game was played like Sic Bo back in the time of the Crusades. He goes onto say that probably in the 13th or 14th century it evolved into the form with two dice that I explain on my site.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 23rd, 2012 at 12:43:27 PM
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Thank you for taking the time to review this game!
It is an interesting chapter in the history of craps.
One can easily see how craps improved upon the rules of hazard
and why hazard became obsolete once it evolved into craps.
It is an interesting chapter in the history of craps.
One can easily see how craps improved upon the rules of hazard
and why hazard became obsolete once it evolved into craps.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
May 23rd, 2012 at 7:47:30 PM
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Quote: WizardThanks for those corrections.
I know I've heard of Hazard before, but can't remember exactly where. It would not surprise me if it was addressed in John Scarne's book.
May Mr. Scarne rest in peace.
He was born in Steubenville, OH, which isn't a far cry from where I am located. I believe that the game of Hazard was mentioned in, Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling which is a book that I own. If I can remember, I'll look for that tomorrow. The kids are asleep, so if I go into the playroom (where the bookshelves are located) I'm liable to trip over one of the any number of toys that are sure to be littering the floor and wake them up.
I have read the book in its entirety, and would say to my friends on here that few truer books about gambling have ever been penned.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
May 23rd, 2012 at 8:30:28 PM
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The first 2 pics are Hazard tables recently sold at auction. The
2nd pic is a Grand Hazard table. 3rd pic is Chuck a Luck. 4th
is a Hazard table in 1900 making the slow change to modern
Craps. The 5th is an 18th century Hazard table. Bottom pic
is the whole Grand Hazard table, circa 1940.
2nd pic is a Grand Hazard table. 3rd pic is Chuck a Luck. 4th
is a Hazard table in 1900 making the slow change to modern
Craps. The 5th is an 18th century Hazard table. Bottom pic
is the whole Grand Hazard table, circa 1940.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
May 23rd, 2012 at 8:49:53 PM
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On rule 5 the 4 is not mentioned. Is that an oversite? What happens on a roll of 4 if it is not an oversite?
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
May 23rd, 2012 at 9:53:41 PM
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Quote: kenarmanOn rule 5 the 4 is not mentioned. Is that an oversite? What happens on a roll of 4 if it is not an oversite?
You're right. I should have said 4 is also a "chance." Thanks for the correction.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 24th, 2012 at 10:30:36 AM
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Any layout with three dice payouts is a "grand" game, and not the two dice game the Wizard wrote about.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 24th, 2012 at 3:08:50 PM
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I checked my Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling, if anyone is interested.
Page 230 mentions Hazard as a precursor to Craps.
Pages 507-508 go into more specifics, but it's about three-dice Hazard.
Page 230 mentions Hazard as a precursor to Craps.
Pages 507-508 go into more specifics, but it's about three-dice Hazard.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
May 25th, 2012 at 5:45:18 PM
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Hazard is also mentioned multiple times in the David Schwarz's book "Roll the Bones" which I recommend.
May 25th, 2012 at 6:23:44 PM
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Quote: Ayecarumba-- What does the layout look like?
-- How is the "Main" tracked? Is there an "On-Off puck"?
These features of the craps table, along with Bar-12, probably evolved after the removal of Craps from the streets into the casinos. Come and Don't betting was introduced to multiply line bet profits per hour. On the street, the shooter is the only Pass bettor - everyone else "fades" him (covers his "pass" bet dollar-for-dollar en total by betting that he will either roll 2, 3, or 12 coming out or set his point but seven-out). Notice that faders get paid even money when the shooter rolls a 12 coming out. Thus all pass-fade bets are self-banked and double-or-nothing, no "pushes". Faders simply have a 1.41% advantage over the single shooter.
Quote: Ayecarumba-- Are odds bets part of the game?
-- Are the equivalent of "hardways/props" part of the game?
Sometimes, "bleacher bets" on the next roll are known to happen, but the odds-paid depends on the mental (and moral!) integrity of the bettors involved, so you're on your own - pack, or at least keep a box cutter handy!
Quote: AyecarumbaWhat is the payout if you place the seven?
For a Main of either [5] or [9], natural odds are 4-to-6 or 2-to-3, so Place odds might be 5-to-8 (E = -2.5%)?
For a Main of either [6] or [8], natural odds are 5-to-6, so Place odds might be 4-to-5 (E = -1.82%)?
Quote: AyecarumbaI always thought this game was French/Cajun in origin.
The name "craps" is short for French crapauds, meaning "toads".
May 25th, 2012 at 6:38:56 PM
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Quote: ThatDonGuyIf Three Dice Hazard is the same as Grand Hazard, I think it's just another name for Sic Bo (at least according to the description in Scarne's Encyclopedia of Games). "Normal" Hazard is played with two dice.
The only real difference between Sic-Bo and Grand-Hazard layouts is the latter's lack of dice-pair bets, what I like to call the "Domino" and "Firmways" bets, that any two of the three dice will bear a specific X&Y or X&X combination. Also, Sic-Bo dubs a X&X&X roll "Triplet", while Grand-Hazard names such a beast a "Raffle". Strangely, both lack a plausible "Straight" bet, that all three dice will bear consecutive numbers. This can happen 24 out of 216 ways, so a 7-to-1 (E = -11.11%) "Any Straight" bet should have evolved for one or the other by now.
May 26th, 2012 at 5:49:10 PM
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Last edited by: sodawater on Oct 1, 2018
May 26th, 2012 at 5:55:51 PM
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Quote: sodawaterWizard, i think you inverted the last two entries on your terminology chart:
If I'm not mistaken, the Hazard equivalent of "Come-out loser", or "crap-out", is "throw-out" rather than "nick-out". Also, I think street-craps calls a setter a "fader", which is like a "Don't" bettor.
May 26th, 2012 at 5:57:37 PM
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Quote: sodawaterWizard, i think you inverted the last two entries on your terminology chart:
A "caster" is from Hazard, and a "shooter" is from craps.
May 26th, 2012 at 8:23:42 PM
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i know, that's why i posted the mistake
May 27th, 2012 at 6:09:20 AM
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Quote: sodawaterWizard, i think you inverted the last two entries on your terminology chart:
You're right, thanks for the correction.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
June 10th, 2012 at 6:26:58 AM
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Being a huge fan of Sic bo, I've read a bit about Hazard. Something that I've always found really interesting about it is the psychological trick that made the game appealing for hundreds of years (and continues to be a major part of the appeal of Sic bo). Using three dice while allowing single-number bets to pay out even money or better, bettors miscalculate by thinking that the odds of a single number hitting on any one of the three dice are 1/2 (1/6 with three chances to hit = 3/6 = 1/2). This is a mistake and the odds are always 1/6, but there being three dice has consistently confused people in this regard.
I've seen Sic bo described as being an ancient Chinese game, but have never seen anything in Chinese from earlier than the Twentieth Century that mentions it. I think that both Sic bo and Chuck-a-Luck can trace their heritage directly to Hazard. FWIW.
I've seen Sic bo described as being an ancient Chinese game, but have never seen anything in Chinese from earlier than the Twentieth Century that mentions it. I think that both Sic bo and Chuck-a-Luck can trace their heritage directly to Hazard. FWIW.
June 10th, 2012 at 11:16:54 AM
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Quote: heatherUsing three dice while allowing single-number bets to pay out even money or better, bettors miscalculate by thinking that the odds of a single number hitting on any one of the three dice are 1/2 (1/6 with three chances to hit = 3/6 = 1/2). This is a mistake and the odds are always 1/6, but there being three dice has consistently confused people in this regard.
My calculations indicate that there are 91 ways to roll a given number on any single die of three, six-sided dice. There are 216 combinations with three dice.
So, 91/216 (or 42.13%) is the probability that I get for the "number-on-any-single-die" bet.
However, the Sic Bo math on wizardofodds.com apparently differs from both of our calculations (see the "specific number" section): https://wizardofodds.com/games/sic-bo/appendix/1/ The page indicates that there are 75 possible combinations for the "number-on-any-single-die" bet (see "The probability of rolling one of a specific number). Interestingly, the line directly above says, "The probability of rolling zero of a specific number is (5/6)3 =125/216," which suggests that there are 91 remaining combinations (out of the 216) in which a specific number can appear on any die of three dice.
I am going to double-check my math.
