What Would You Do? High Table Limit/Low Bankroll

I am headed to a casino my wife wants to try out. She plays primarily slots. I play mostly craps. I also play Baccarat but I enjoy craps more...

The hotel, Lauberge du Lac in Lake Charles, Louisiana, is supposedly very nice BUT has high table minimums. I am used to playing $5 tables and the host (who is comping us one night just to try the property) tells me that I may not like their table minimums. She says that they are $15 most of the time but usually $25 on Saturday night. Of course, our stay is on a Saturday night.

I usually buy-in for $400 and bet pass line/5x odds and one or two come bets w/odds. The bankroll is shorter so I will probably only risk a couple of hundred on this trip. I know it is a recipe for a total wipeout, but I also know I won't go to a casino and play slots...or just do nothing.

With a $25 minimum bet and a couple of hundred to risk, how would you bet?

I will uses some of this advice...

At most casinos, Saturday is *usually* the hardest night to get comped. They may let you switch to a different night.

Otherwise, I'd say that, since you play it, stick to Baccarat. It's a slower pace, and you only have one bet out at a time. If you win, THEN play some craps...

Note that if you have money spread out on the table, they'll often let you place the 6/8 for $24 at a $25 table. But if that's the only bet you're making, then those are gonna be $30 each.

You could always just bet $25 on the pass line no odds. Still not a bad bet and the slowest pace on average than any other game at $25 a bet. When you have a bigger bankroll and the option of diverting more of it to odds that's the way to go, but with a small bankroll and $25 minimum you would be giving away that several cents a roll, with or without odds.

You will have only 8, or at most 16 flat bets with no odds. If you play, I expect your session to last less than one hour unless someone is hitting alot of points, and much less than an hour, if the table is cold. Probably best to stick with the Mrs., or take up VP.

Quote: RonC

With a $25 minimum bet and a couple of hundred to risk, how would you bet?

My answer to this question? "Not at all."

Your primary goal will be entertainment. But having a grand total of eight bets in your pocket (assuming you don't take odds) means that that entertainment could very easily last only five minutes. Then you'd be in the same situation that you didn't want--stuck in the casino with nothing to do--but also, $200 in the hole. That doesn't make for a very pleasant experience--especially when after you've busted out, you hear cheers coming from the crap table as the shooter makes point after point.

Given the high table minimums, your $200 is pretty much insufficient to do anything but play slots or video poker. Why not either join your wife and play some goofy penny/nickel slots (those can be lots of fun, and IMHO offer a good entertainment value for the price), or better still, play some video poker (the worst VP machine, played badly, is still better than the best slot machine)?

There's another reason I would recommend this. When a casino jacks up the table minimums on a Saturday night, it's pretty much saying to everyone, "hey, we know you're going to gamble, you're a captive audience, so take it or leave it"; the customers all too often shrug and say, "what the heck, we're gonna lose anyway", and then they get your $200 for five minutes' worth of effort instead of two or three hours'. But by refusing to buy the product when they double or triple its price, you're helping to send a message: "I'm not going to play if you make the cost of playing ridiculous." Later, when your host asks you how you liked your stay, you can tell her that you sure did like the hotel, but darn, you couldn't play the table games you love because the minimums were too high. That sort of feedback gets to management eventually.

One thing's for sure--if you and other people like yourself go ahead and play at the $25 minimums, that'll tell casino management that their gouging strategy is working. $25 minimums are a joke (at any time) in a casino located in one of the poorer areas of the country, and during a depression at that.

I meant to say "find a pre-Super Bowl party and save your money for better limits." But you didn't say it was this Saturday.

The core of my advice, however, is still sound. Find something else to do and save your money for better gaming opoprtunities. I'm a low-low-roller, too. The highest bet I've made outside the craps table is $15 at 3 card poker with pair+ (I know, I know). And the only game I've played at anything higher than a $5 minimmum was Pai Gow Poker for $10. But then that's a slow-paced games with lots of pushes. I may raise my bets if I'm winning, but not otherwise. Gambling is supposed to be about enternainment and fun.

If you like VP, though, find a pay table you can live with and play there.

With $200 you'll have 8 green chips. That's obviously not going to last a long time if you get unlucky, so why not play in a manner that isn't going to last long either way? Try this:

1) Bet a green chip on the line.
2) If it wins, parlay. Repeat 3x.
3) If you win 4 in a row, you'll have $400 in front of you. Put that aside.
4) Go back to step 1 with another one of your original 8 green chips.
5) When you're done with the original 8 chips, leave.

The question is how many times you can win 4-in-a-row before you lose 8 times overall. If it's zero, you're done. Once, you'll be just a bit ahead. More than once and you're up a meaningful amount relative to your buy-in.

You won't be at the table longer than 15-20 minutes with this system, win or lose. If you're looking for a longer session, that's going to be tough with only 8 units.

I like MathExtremist's approach... I would add this variant:

You have $200 bankroll. Take $50 of it and do this:
Bet the pass line for $50 (yes I said all of it).
If you win, parley it 3 times.

If you win 4 times in a row the gods must really want you to play craps! You will have 950 total, and can just play $25 craps as you would play $5 craps with a $200 bankroll. (i.e. Pass line + odds, maybe a come bet)
Otherwise, take the 150 you have left, and play some VP. You should study up on VP strategy, as this is the most likely out come !!

PS combined house edge on the parley is about 5.5% of the $50 bet. Roulette house edge is 5.3 percent, so you could instead bet $40-$50 on a two number wager at roulette. And again, learn VP.

Cheers!

$25 on the pass line (or don't pass) if you want to enjoy the fun of the craps table. That's it.

In all other instances, baccarat; table minimum, but can fool around up to $25, or more if you're running well.

$25 on the pass line (or don't pass) if you want to enjoy the fun of the craps table. No other bets.

In all other instances, baccarat. Table minimum, but can fool around up to $25, or more if you're running well.

Wow, Harrah's in downtown New Orleans has "only" $15 minimums on craps and BJ most weekends. And I'd think they'd have a far more captive audience.

Do what you love ... play craps.

Yeah, I know it may be a really brief stint at the craps table since you are starting off close to the felt and facing high minimum bets even if you just do a line bet with no odds.
Face it, if you lose and have to walk away from the table after a few minutes ... well, that is when you can go tell the bartender how your wife and the casino host ganged up on you and caused your losses.

But what the heck. If you don't really like Baccarat all that much ... why play it. You can hit a bad streak there too! So why don't you just play craps. If you have early wins, great!! If you have early losses, you are indeed finished. Its terrible to be stuck in a casino when your bankroll is gone. So then its booze and ogling pretty girls.

You can still play for $5. $30 on the line, $25 on the don't pass. Then $25 odds. Shazaam! 5X odds!!!!!

I've actually had a couple of nights lately where there was more bankroll left but the dice were not nice to me and I just didn't feel like playing anymore. I spent time watching mt wife play slots (I can do that for a bit, but after some time it is kind of like watching paint dry!), grabbed a drink or two, and got some sleep. The short bankroll for one trip does not really bother me. We're trying the place out, if we like it we can go back when we are better funded. I'm using most of the bankroll for my wife to play slots...that is why mine is so short. That's my choice...usually we split it closer to even (or I get more than half). We're going to Vegas in a few weeks with a larger bankroll.

I am hoping the minimums are not quite as high as I have been lead to believe. I will talk to the pit boss when I get there and get an idea of what times they are at what level and play when they are down to $15 if that is possible. That may mean I do nothing Saturday night and end up playing early Sunday morning. That'd give me something to look forward to instead of losing it all early, too!!

I did put "stay away from the tables" as an option and I see it has the most votes so far. What would you do if you were in a casino, short-funded, wanted to play, and wanted to stay away from the table? VP? What is the worst jacks or better pay table you would play? I do pretty good on the Wiz's simulator so I think I can stay pretty close to the strategy...plus I have a week longer to learn and practice.

Someone mentioned Harrah's New Orleans being a more captive audience. Perhaps... The casinos in Lake Charles are the closest with table games to Houston (about a three hour drive from the city). New Orleans is seven hours away. Casinos beyond Lake Charles (further into Louisiana or up on I-20 coming in from the Dallas area) are 5-6 hours away from Houston. New Orleans has competition only two hours away in the Gulfport/Biloxi area. If I was going as far as New Orleans for gaming, I'd actually probably go on over to Biloxi. They have better craps rules... Lake Charles is the destination for many from this part of Texas. There are two casinos there (Isle of Capri, a total dump, and Lauberge du Lac), one slots-only place (Delta Downs) and a NA casino that we enjoy a lot abotu 40 minutes beyond Lake Charles...Coushatta.

Quote: DeMango

You can still play for $5. $30 on the line, $25 on the don't pass. Then $25 odds. Shazaam! 5X odds!!!!!

Interesting...what would the pitfalls be?

Well a 12 1/36 of the time sux, someone might get anoyed about you outsmarting them. A low cost game, you hang in there for quite awhile and if it gets hot you win a few shekels. Such a deal!

To follow up on your plan B (Other casino) you have the right idea about Biloxi. A lot of choices most of them inexpensive. The Palace has $3 craps and BJ. Treasure Bay has upto THREE tables of $2 Mississippi Stud (You will get addicted!) Beau has all the expensive tables ($10), IP craps has the exotic bets ALL - TALL - SMALL (Addictive!), Hard Rock is nice including the eye candy and there are a few lesser lights including a "Pile of Debris"! I like the hard tables at the "not so Grand" and they have the cheapest mini bac in town $5. All in all worth the extra drive. (I'll be there Tuesday if you need me!!)

Quote: RonC

I did put "stay away from the tables" as an option and I see it has the most votes so far. What would you do if you were in a casino, short-funded, wanted to play, and wanted to stay away from the table? VP? What is the worst jacks or better pay table you would play? I do pretty good on the Wiz's simulator so I think I can stay pretty close to the strategy...plus I have a week longer to learn and practice.

To address your question, it is all about self-discipline. When you gamble, you are going to lose more likely than not. So why play a lesser game if you don't have to? It takes a lot of gumption to stay away from the table/machine after a 3 hour drive. I'll admit I am not the strongest myself on this point.

I won't play anything less than 9/6 JOB unless there is a promotion or a progressive of some kind. I also won't play H17 blackjack for the same reason.

Quote:

Someone mentioned Harrah's New Orleans being a more captive audience. Perhaps... The casinos in Lake Charles are the closest with table games to Houston (about a three hour drive from the city). New Orleans is seven hours away. Casinos beyond Lake Charles (further into Louisiana or up on I-20 coming in from the Dallas area) are 5-6 hours away from Houston. New Orleans has competition only two hours away in the Gulfport/Biloxi area. If I was going as far as New Orleans for gaming, I'd actually probably go on over to Biloxi. They have better craps rules... Lake Charles is the destination for many from this part of Texas. There are two casinos there (Isle of Capri, a total dump, and Lauberge du Lac), one slots-only place (Delta Downs) and a NA casino that we enjoy a lot abotu 40 minutes beyond Lake Charles...Coushatta.

Sounds like Coushatta is your jam if LDL doesn't work out. Sometimes the NA casinos are better run than the "state" casinos.

Quote: DeMango

You can still play for $5. $30 on the line, $25 on the don't pass. Then $25 odds. Shazaam! 5X odds!!!!!

I'd want to put a dollar on twelve on every come-out, though. You're giving up even more vig, but you have to give up something.

Some casinos require that your minimum odds bet be equal to your flat bet, or equal to the table minimum.

At least one casino had told me to make simultaneous pass and don't pass bets at the minimum so that I can keep shooting from the Don't after my point has been made and no one else is at the table. This allows outstanding Don't Come bets to be resolved. Point is some places explicitly allow and encourage it.

Quote: RonC

Someone mentioned Harrah's New Orleans being a more captive audience. Perhaps... The casinos in Lake Charles are the closest with table games to Houston (about a three hour drive from the city). New Orleans is seven hours away. Casinos beyond Lake Charles (further into Louisiana or up on I-20 coming in from the Dallas area) are 5-6 hours away from Houston. New Orleans has competition only two hours away in the Gulfport/Biloxi area. If I was going as far as New Orleans for gaming, I'd actually probably go on over to Biloxi. They have better craps rules... Lake Charles is the destination for many from this part of Texas. There are two casinos there (Isle of Capri, a total dump, and Lauberge du Lac), one slots-only place (Delta Downs) and a NA casino that we enjoy a lot abotu 40 minutes beyond Lake Charles...Coushatta.

By "captive audience" I was thinking of people visiting New Orleans and not inclined to leave the city -- either because they don't have a car or they're not inclined to leave the downtown/French Quarter ara, where there's plenty to do already. These people have pretty much one choice, Harrah's, and so Harrah's doesn't really have to compete for this business even with the other casinos in the New Orleans area. (Locals go other places.) OTOH it sounds like there are multiple cainos in Lake Charles that at least have to compete with each other.

Quote: 7outlineaway

... At least one casino had told me to make simultaneous pass and don't pass bets at the minimum so that I can keep shooting from the Don't after my point has been made and no one else is at the table. ...

Off-topic question: If you didn't play the doey-don't but just the don't, how would that keep you from continuing to shoot after making a point? I think you continue to be the shooter (if you want) until a 7-out, no matter which way you are betting. And particularly if "no one else is at the table." Who else would shoot instead of you?

Did I miss something there? The only problem I can see is if your losing don't bet represents your very last chip, so that you don't have anything left to bet with.

I'd take a run at the don't pass with full odds at least once, even with a small bank roll. If you bust out then you can go sulk at a slot machine or something.

Quote: Doc

Off-topic question: If you didn't play the doey-don't but just the don't, how would that keep you from continuing to shoot after making a point? I think you continue to be the shooter (if you want) until a 7-out, no matter which way you are betting. And particularly if "no one else is at the table." Who else would shoot instead of you?

Did I miss something there? The only problem I can see is if your losing don't bet represents your very last chip, so that you don't have anything left to bet with.

The alternative (which I would prefer) is to keep shooting without a line bet at all until my Don't Come numbers are resolved. I have been allowed to do this too, and Colorado law allows it, although most casinos there don't know this.

Generally I agree with what mkl said. But, that Casino is by no means cheap or for low rollers. I know it too well.
I've never seen the minimums for Baccarat and Pai Gow Poker lower than 25, quite often 50 during busy time.
The Carnival games: 3-4 card pokers, Carribean, Let It Ride etc. never lower than 10, higher at busy time.
Even when most tables are empty, they don't low the minimum.
Busy time doesn't only mean weekends, could be just in the afternoon when more people come in.
I never go there without at least 20 large bills in my pocket.

Quote: MathExtremist

With $200 you'll have 8 green chips. That's obviously not going to last a long time if you get unlucky, so why not play in a manner that isn't going to last long either way? Try this:

1) Bet a green chip on the line.
2) If it wins, parlay. Repeat 3x.
3) If you win 4 in a row, you'll have $400 in front of you. Put that aside.
4) Go back to step 1 with another one of your original 8 green chips.
5) When you're done with the original 8 chips, leave.

The question is how many times you can win 4-in-a-row before you lose 8 times overall. If it's zero, you're done. Once, you'll be just a bit ahead. More than once and you're up a meaningful amount relative to your buy-in

Nice Idea.
Almost like playing through slot "free play". The more units one has to play with, the more session wins.

WinCraps 100,000 total sessions: Pass Line bets. (Don't Pass simulation was almost identical)
Playing for 4-in-a-row Pass Line winners.
38,471 (38.47%) won
61,530 (61.53%) lost $200 bankroll

Won session breakdown:
30,767 (79.97%) won $200, 4-in-a-row-wins 1 time.
6,819 (17.73%) won $600, 4-in-a-row-wins 2 times.
823 (2.14%) won $1000, 4-in-a-row-wins 3 times.
57 (.15%) won $1400, 4-in-a-row-wins 4 times.
5 (.01%) won $1800, 4-in-a-row-wins 5 times.

38.47% chance (1 in 2.6 or 10 in 26) of winning $200 or more
7.704% chance, a 1 in 13 shot of winning $600 or more

Average rolls per session was 50 and the highest was 139 rolls.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other simulation result summaries:
Playing for 3-in-a-row Pass Line winners dropped the winning sessions to 25%. (break-even was 39%) Session Loss only 36%
75% of won session winning $200
21% of won session winning $400
3.3% of won session winning $600
.3% of won session winning $800
.02% of won session winning $1000


Playing for 5-in-a-row Pass Line winners dropped the winning sessions to 20%.
90% of won session winning $600
remaining session wins 10% either $1400, $2200 or $3000 max win.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good Luck in your play!

Quote: DrEntropy

I like MathExtremist's approach... I would add this variant:

You have $200 bankroll. Take $50 of it and do this:
Bet the pass line for $50 (yes I said all of it).
If you win, parley it 3 times.

(244/495)^4 = 5.90% of a success. About a 1 in 17 chance of success.

a slightly better than a 1 time shot of hitting a yo 11. (2/36 or 5.556%)


WinCraps simulations 50,000 sessions verifies the math.
Won sessions 5.96% (2,982)
Lost sessions 94.04% (47,018)

Quote: DeMango

You can still play for $5. $30 on the line, $25 on the don't pass. Then $25 odds. Shazaam! 5X odds!!!!!

I you are worried about midnight wiping you out you can always throw a buck on it and hedge for the times the 12 shows up. Although hedging isn't the best way to play you are looking for ways to stay at the table for a decent amount of time.

Quote: clarkacal

You could always just bet $25 on the pass line no odds. Still not a bad bet and the slowest pace on average than any other game at $25 a bet. When you have a bigger bankroll and the option of diverting more of it to odds that's the way to go, but with a small bankroll and $25 minimum you would be giving away that several cents a roll, with or without odds.

I would also just go with the pass line or the don't pass. At least you can make the call when you get to the table.

To see 30 pass line decisions per hour as a good average
WinCraps sims show these session results:
Won 40.06%
Average win close to $100
Largest win $500
Broke-even 13.85%
Lost 46.09%
Average loss close to $100
Busted out bankroll 17% of all sessions
Busted out when a session lost (lost $200) 36.23%
So a 5 out of 6 chance of not losing all your bankroll for 30 pass line bets.

To see 60 pass line decisions per 2 hours as a good average
WinCraps sims show these session results:
Won 38.85%
Average win close to $150
Largest win $700
Broke-even 9.4%
Lost 51.75%
Average loss close to $150
Busted out bankroll 34.31% of all sessions
Busted out when a session lost (lost $200) 66.63%

Quote: pokerface

That Casino is by no means cheap or for low rollers.

If the casino has for whatever reason adopted a clear policy of high table limits and strictly adheres to that policy it seems that a low roller, once aware of this situation, had better content himself with the knowledge that if his first few bets are not winners he is going to be wandering around looking for ways to kill time.

Now all is not lost. There are advantages I'm sure. Such high roller places tend to have nice furniture, comfortable lounges chairs, bars serving good quality booze and often the women will be gorgeous.

So if your wife is set on exploring this high-minimum casino there is not much you can do but hope to win those first few bets and stay on a roll. Its not really "the casino's money", but most people feel confident with high table minimums if they are in the plus column and can atleast say to themselves that its the casino's money they are playing with.

I don't see any real alternatives. Sure going to a lower level joint is an option, but we all know that if your wife is set on exploring this one particular casino then that is what is going to happen. Sure you could select an alternative game, perhaps you might get lucky at some MiniBacc despite the MaxiLimits but if its really not your favorite game you might as well hit the craps pit since that is where you will form your impression of this casino anyway.

Good luck.

The interesting thing about this particular casino is that a member of another board mentioned that going there might be a good alternative to our favorite casino. We really like Coushatta BUT we have done really bad there for the past three or four trips. I'm not talking about losing money...it is gambling. I am talking about losing so fast that our bankroll doesn't last more than a few hours. That has not always been the case. Before this streak, a decent bankroll meant we could play all we wanted and have a great time. We'd come home with 50% of our bankroll and get enough "comp dollars" to cover food and fuel.

So...everything is random. We're randomly losing too much there right now. Betting hasn't changed; the outcomes have just not been as kind to us.

Anyway, the gent that said to give LDL a try (we have played at the "Pile of Debris" in Lake Charles; we just don't like it). He is either a slot or VP player and plays with a bankroll of $600-$800. He seems to do well enough on the machines. They have a good number of machines in all ranges but their table games are out of sight.

The likely outcome of this whole deal is that we'll be right back to Coushatta the next trip over to Louisiana. This is likely a one-time experience for us...

With a small bankroll, I would recommend Pai Gow. Deals are slow. You push on about 1/2 your hands. Your money gets drained through the commission. Still, it will last a lot longer than 8 pass line rolls.

It seems to me that going there and playing at all is pretty much endorsing a ripoff. They're charging too much for entertainment (gambling). Therefore the proper response is to not give them your business.

Quote: mkl654321

It seems to me that going there and playing at all is pretty much endorsing a ripoff. They're charging too much for entertainment (gambling). Therefore the proper response is to not give them your business.

Well, I've often thought that the "charge" for the gambling was the House Edge and the Minimum Bet/Pace of the Game was what affected how long a session you received.
However, no matter if its a ripoff or not. A single man could say "Its a ripoff, I'll go elsewhere".
A married man has to say "Yes, Dear" and go to the casino his wife wants to visit. Perhaps when he is there he will play Pai Gow for the slow pace of the game, perhaps he will play Craps since that is primary enjoyment, perhaps Baccarat which would be a slower rate of play particularly if the table is crowded, but its really a sure shot that he will go to the casino his wife wants to visit.

Quote: FleaStiff

A single man could say "Its a ripoff, I'll go elsewhere".
A married man has to say "Yes, Dear"

Well, then, that's the real ripoff :) Marriage is definitely -EV, but we play it for the entertainment value...sort of like a crap game...

Quote: mkl654321

Well, then, that's the real ripoff :) Marriage is definitely -EV, but we play it for the entertainment value...sort of like a crap game...

...and when you color-up, you have to leave half of your bankroll on the table...

Quote: mkl654321

Well, then, that's the real ripoff :) Marriage is definitely -EV, but we play it for the entertainment value...sort of like a crap game...

Well put.

But I thought marriage is a faith, not a game of chance, nor an investment.