ThisIsMyJam
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October 14th, 2022 at 6:57:23 PM permalink
Quote: JimRockford

Quote: ThisIsMyJam

Quote: JimRockford

Maybe I could have found a better thread but I wanted register my pet peeve about UTH. Don’t get me wrong, I like the game, I especially because you can get comped out of proportion to your action because most people play so poorly. However I REALLY don’t like that you can’t check your hole cards after the flop. I don’t see why I can’t confirm the suits of my J3 after I see a monochrome flop. I know I have made mistakes because of this.
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What do you mean you can't check your hole cards after the flop? Somewhere you play doesn't let you look at your cards after the flop even if you haven't bet yet?
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I haven’t played in years, but that was the rule at the Mirage the last time I played. Is that not standard?
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That's definitely not standard. I've never seen it. Do you recall if you played with more than one dealer? If just the one, it's possible the dealer didn't know proper game play. That does happen.

I play UTH heavily and always keep my cards in my hand until I play or fold. Once you play some casinos won't let you look at your cards anymore whereas others don't seem to care if you take a peek.
mcallister3200
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October 15th, 2022 at 6:19:09 AM permalink
Similar deal but different game, Hollywood STL deals a version of Cajun Stud (Mississippi Stud with added side bets), and has for years, that pays 1:1 rather than 2:1 on 2 pair.
edgehunter
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October 15th, 2022 at 12:50:19 PM permalink
While traveling recently, I came across a UTH variation that appears to give the player an edge.

The game and payouts are the same on the Ante, blind and play bets.

The only difference occurs is in the scoring:
if the dealer doesn't open with a pair or better, regardless of if player won or not, player didn't fold
play bet gets paid 1:1
blind and ante pushes.

I don't think there's a ton to be made grinding this game. I spent about 20 hours grinding it for fun recently using wizards basic strategy.

The game dealt atrociously slowly with inexperienced dealers, and the table limit is ~$10 on the ante bet.

Im wondering if anyone has a code library for UTH to calculate the edge and a basic strategy for this. Im happy to pay for it too.
Deucekies
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October 15th, 2022 at 1:01:47 PM permalink
Quote: edgehunter


The only difference occurs is in the scoring:
if the dealer doesn't open with a pair or better, regardless of if player won or not, player didn't fold
play bet gets paid 1:1
blind and ante pushes.



Without crunching any numbers, I'd say this version would add a huge amount of value to 4-betting.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Mission146
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October 15th, 2022 at 1:46:43 PM permalink
Quote: edgehunter

While traveling recently, I came across a UTH variation that appears to give the player an edge.

The game and payouts are the same on the Ante, blind and play bets.

The only difference occurs is in the scoring:
if the dealer doesn't open with a pair or better, regardless of if player won or not, player didn't fold
play bet gets paid 1:1
blind and ante pushes.

I don't think there's a ton to be made grinding this game. I spent about 20 hours grinding it for fun recently using wizards basic strategy.

The game dealt atrociously slowly with inexperienced dealers, and the table limit is ~$10 on the ante bet.

Im wondering if anyone has a code library for UTH to calculate the edge and a basic strategy for this. Im happy to pay for it too.
link to original post



This was asked recently:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/37526-uth-change-in-ev-questions/#post862250

I came up with a player advantage of just over 1% without accounting for potential strategy changes.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Wizard
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October 19th, 2022 at 9:22:44 AM permalink
Okay, my computer is finished crunching numbers.

The bottom line for the 3x pre-flop version of UTH is a house edge (relative to the Ante bet) is 9.67%. The average bet is 3.6699 units, making the Element of Risk 2.63%.

By way of comparison, these figures for convention 4x UTH are 2.185% and 0.526%.

So, an increase in the element of risk of 2.11%. By way of comparison, going from double-zero to triple-zero in roulette adds 2.43% and 6-5 blackjack adds 1.36%.

Here is the strategy, by the two player cards.



N = Check pre-flop
Y = Raise pre-flop
S = Raise pre-flop if suited only
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
edgehunter
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October 19th, 2022 at 9:39:45 AM permalink
Oh wow, I thought for this ruleset, the house edge would decrease by quite a bit.

At this table, it is 4x preflop.

Just to verify, the scoring parameters of the the game you ran were:

3x preflop UTH
pair or better to qualify
Dealer NO open, player win = blind push, ante push, play win
Dealer NO open, player lose = blind push, ante push, play win
aceside
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October 19th, 2022 at 9:40:21 AM permalink
deleted
aceside
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October 19th, 2022 at 9:41:42 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Okay, my computer is finished crunching numbers.

The bottom line for the 3x pre-flop version of UTH is a house edge (relative to the Ante bet) is 9.67%. The average bet is 3.6699 units, making the Element of Risk 2.63%.

By way of comparison, these figures for convention 4x UTH are 2.185% and 0.526%.

So, an increase in the element of risk of 2.11%. By way of comparison, going from double-zero to triple-zero in roulette adds 2.43% and 6-5 blackjack adds 1.36%.

Here is the strategy, by the two player cards.



N = Check pre-flop
Y = Raise pre-flop
S = Raise pre-flop if suited only
link to original post


Hi Wizard,
I asked this in another thread. This above basic strategy is also good for Heads Up Hold'Em (HUH) without the bad-beat bonus. If you add a bad-beat-odds pay table (straight or better 500-50-10-8-5), will the strategy change?

The casino I play use a cheaper one (straight or better 500-25-6-5-4). How much does this affect the strategy on 3x and 2x strategies? Thank you in advance!
Wizard
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October 19th, 2022 at 9:48:11 AM permalink
Quote: edgehunter

Oh wow, I thought for this ruleset, the house edge would decrease by quite a bit.
link to original post



I'm talking about regular UTH with a 3x pre-flop raise. Not what you asked about.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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October 19th, 2022 at 1:17:03 PM permalink
Here is my new page on Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em 3x.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
100xOdds
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October 19th, 2022 at 1:57:37 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is my new page on Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em 3x.
link to original post

9.7% house edge?!
wow

element of risk would be 9.67%/3.67 = 2.63%.
Still huge :(

avoiding Scarlet Pearl casino in Biloxi, MS
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Mosca
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October 19th, 2022 at 6:37:18 PM permalink
Here now, played at Mirage yesterday, checked my hole cards with impunity, no one cared.
A falling knife has no handle.
ksdjdj
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October 19th, 2022 at 7:57:35 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Here now, played at Mirage yesterday, checked my hole cards with impunity, no one cared.
link to original post


Did the dealer expose one of their cards , if yes at what stage of play, because that seems like a great rule if it is the norm for this version of the game (even if it is only exposed at the "1x bet or fold" decision point)?

Quote: mcallister3200

I can back up DeMango that SP deals or dealt a game labeled as UTH (no bad beat bonus) with no 4x option. It was several months before DeMango posted, but I observed a dealer exposing 1 dealer card on the game, sat to play, played one hand and one hand only after not being allowed to 4x it pre-flop, on UTH.
(snip)
link to original post



Edit: I know mcallister3200 said SP, and you played at Mirage.
Wiggins
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October 20th, 2022 at 1:45:30 AM permalink
I have never stepped foot in Mississippi, but I have played a lot of UTH in my life. This story never felt right to me. OP admitted being new to the game. A second person confirmed his story but also said he only played one hand. He said he was 99.9%+ sure it was UTH, and I think I figured out why:

"Big Blind UTH" -
Pictured in a 2020 article about Biloxi casino reopenings. Note the layout: it's VERY similar to traditional UTH. But if you look closely at the picture you can see the smoking gun: two separate columns for the blind payout (one for wins and one for bad beats). This game is simply a repackaged HUH.



https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2020/05/21/what-mississippi-casinos-reopening-heres-list/5224864002/

you can zoom a bit here
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/05/20/PJAM/76abfe27-6bd5-4aa7-9a79-ace1611b3e76-CASINO_ONE.jpg?width=1320&height=880&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

There is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
Hunterhill
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October 20th, 2022 at 5:28:43 AM permalink
Quote: Wiggins

I have never stepped foot in Mississippi, but I have played a lot of UTH in my life. This story never felt right to me. OP admitted being new to the game. A second person confirmed his story but also said he only played one hand. He said he was 99.9%+ sure it was UTH, and I think I figured out why:

"Big Blind UTH" -
Pictured in a 2020 article about Biloxi casino reopenings. Note the layout: it's VERY similar to traditional UTH. But if you look closely at the picture you can see the smoking gun: two separate columns for the blind payout (one for wins and one for bad beats). This game is simply a repackaged HUH.



https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2020/05/21/what-mississippi-casinos-reopening-heres-list/5224864002/

you can zoom a bit here
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/05/20/PJAM/76abfe27-6bd5-4aa7-9a79-ace1611b3e76-CASINO_ONE.jpg?width=1320&height=880&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

There is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
link to original post


I don’t know the op but if Mccallister saw the game I believe what he said. He is a very experienced player and would have noticed if was a different version.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
aceside
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October 20th, 2022 at 6:01:16 AM permalink
Quote: Wiggins

There is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
link to original post


I trust you. So far I've seen no evidence of 3x UTH existing. If they exist, they should have a bad-beat bonus pay table, like the one in your picture.
Last edited by: aceside on Oct 20, 2022
Mosca
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October 20th, 2022 at 9:54:43 AM permalink
Quote: ksdjdj

Quote: Mosca

Here now, played at Mirage yesterday, checked my hole cards with impunity, no one cared.
link to original post


Did the dealer expose one of their cards , if yes at what stage of play, because that seems like a great rule if it is the norm for this version of the game (even if it is only exposed at the "1x bet or fold" decision point)?

Quote: mcallister3200

I can back up DeMango that SP deals or dealt a game labeled as UTH (no bad beat bonus) with no 4x option. It was several months before DeMango posted, but I observed a dealer exposing 1 dealer card on the game, sat to play, played one hand and one hand only after not being allowed to 4x it pre-flop, on UTH.
(snip)
link to original post



Edit: I know mcallister3200 said SP, and you played at Mirage.
link to original post



They deal the 4 cards for the 6 card bet, and then community cards with a blank underneath, then the player cards. Then play proceeds. After the river, THEN they deal the dealer's cards.
A falling knife has no handle.
Wizard
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October 20th, 2022 at 4:12:56 PM permalink
Quote: Wiggins

There is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
link to original post



I spent a lot of time analyzing the 3x version and really hope the report and confirmation were accurate. It would be nice to get a second confirmation.

I'll keep an eye out for this "Big Blind" version.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
aceside
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October 21st, 2022 at 9:11:57 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard


I spent a lot of time analyzing the 3x version and really hope the report and confirmation were accurate. It would be nice to get a second confirmation.

I'll keep an eye out for this "Big Blind" version.
link to original post


Hi Wizard, I noticed a tiny difference between your 3x UTH and HUH strategies on your website. It is on this player starting hand of suited K4. I guess this is caused by rounding.
mcallister3200
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October 21st, 2022 at 12:45:38 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Wiggins

There is almost no information about the Big Blind variant online, but I believe this explains the confusion. So far I've seen no evidence in this thread that the 3x UTH variant exists. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
link to original post



I spent a lot of time analyzing the 3x version and really hope the report and confirmation were accurate. It would be nice to get a second confirmation.

I'll keep an eye out for this "Big Blind" version.
link to original post



I’ll check back in a few months. It’s always possible I have brain farts but I am 100% that I questioned it and was told it was CHANGED months earlier. Which would have been post 2020 where Wiggins info is from. I guess it’s possible he meant took out UTH and replaced it with this seperate game rather than changed pay table.
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November 10th, 2022 at 7:45:59 PM permalink
Somebody on my Live Stream today said he saw a 3x UTH game, but the dealer exposed one of the flop cards before the first decision point. Might this be the case at the Scarlet Pearl? I'm still trying to get a verification on this game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ThisIsMyJam
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November 10th, 2022 at 8:00:42 PM permalink
That variant is Jackpot Hold Em, no clue if that's what's at SP though.
Zcore13
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November 10th, 2022 at 9:21:20 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Somebody on my Live Stream today said he saw a 3x UTH game, but the dealer exposed one of the flop cards before the first decision point. Might this be the case at the Scarlet Pearl? I'm still trying to get a verification on this game.
link to original post



AGS Jackpot Holdem. All the same rules as UTH. except 1 flop card exposed and only 3x bet allowed. All other play after is the same.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Wizard
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November 10th, 2022 at 9:40:39 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

AGS Jackpot Holdem. All the same rules as UTH. except 1 flop card exposed and only 3x bet allowed. All other play after is the same.
link to original post



Thank you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
mcallister3200
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November 12th, 2022 at 6:37:49 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Somebody on my Live Stream today said he saw a 3x UTH game, but the dealer exposed one of the flop cards before the first decision point. Might this be the case at the Scarlet Pearl? I'm still trying to get a verification on this game.
link to original post



The game at Pearl that I described was a procedural error exposure, not game design. Was not Jackpot Hold em. I was either mistaken as speculated above (never been a property I’ve frequented often), or it is just UTH with 3x. Card is not intentionally exposed.
Zcore13
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November 12th, 2022 at 6:57:19 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Quote: Wizard

Somebody on my Live Stream today said he saw a 3x UTH game, but the dealer exposed one of the flop cards before the first decision point. Might this be the case at the Scarlet Pearl? I'm still trying to get a verification on this game.
link to original post



The game at Pearl that I described was a procedural error exposure, not game design. Was not Jackpot Hold em. I was either mistaken as speculated above (never been a property I’ve frequented often), or it is just UTH with 3x. Card is not intentionally exposed.
link to original post



That could be Galaxy's game Heads Up Holdem. Only a 3x pre flop bet allowed, but has a built in bad bead payout for losing with a straight or better. No additional bet needed.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
mcallister3200
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November 12th, 2022 at 11:22:45 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: mcallister3200

Quote: Wizard

Somebody on my Live Stream today said he saw a 3x UTH game, but the dealer exposed one of the flop cards before the first decision point. Might this be the case at the Scarlet Pearl? I'm still trying to get a verification on this game.
link to original post



The game at Pearl that I described was a procedural error exposure, not game design. Was not Jackpot Hold em. I was either mistaken as speculated above (never been a property I’ve frequented often), or it is just UTH with 3x. Card is not intentionally exposed.
link to original post



That could be Galaxy's game Heads Up Holdem. Only a 3x pre flop bet allowed, but has a built in bad bead payout for losing with a straight or better. No additional bet needed.


ZCore13
link to original post



No, game is titled Big Blind Ultimate Texas Hold em by Bally’s.
Wizard
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November 16th, 2022 at 4:05:20 PM permalink
I wrote to the Scarlet Pearl and about a week later I was kindly contacted back. They attached a PDF of the rule card. Here it is.



It would seem this is a similar game to Bad Beat Hold 'Em, where the Blind bet (what they call the Blind Bonus) can win with a straight or better, even if the player loses. Unfortunately, the rule card doesn't specify the pay table for that (I hate it when rule cards omit such rules).

I spent a lot of time analyzing this 3x version, which was all a big waste of time.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Deucekies
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November 17th, 2022 at 8:55:17 PM permalink
It appears that "Big Blind UTH" is an exact copy of Galaxy's "Head's Up Holdem."
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Hunterhill
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November 18th, 2022 at 1:08:49 AM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

It appears that "Big Blind UTH" is an exact copy of Galaxy's "Head's Up Holdem."
link to original post


Well since Galaxy basically copies every one else’s games it’s just I feel
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
aceside
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November 18th, 2022 at 10:58:49 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: Deucekies

It appears that "Big Blind UTH" is an exact copy of Galaxy's "Head's Up Holdem."
link to original post


Well since Galaxy basically copies every one else’s games it’s just I feel
link to original post


There is still a tiny difference between this two games. Big Blind UTH has an Envy Bonus but Heads up Hold’Em doesn’t.
Deucekies
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November 19th, 2022 at 11:46:42 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: Deucekies

It appears that "Big Blind UTH" is an exact copy of Galaxy's "Head's Up Holdem."
link to original post


Well since Galaxy basically copies every one else’s games it’s just I feel
link to original post



No argument here. Turnabout is fair play.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Suited89
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February 13th, 2023 at 8:24:25 AM permalink
I spent about 1 hour of my time looking to vastly improve the "ghost" offering of UTH with a 3x Large wager. I made two distinct changes to the payouts without altering the occurance. When I did this the H.A. dropped to 2.7918%, a 3.675 Ave. Bet yields 0.7597%. As far as I'm concerned, the Wiz or his designee can have it. (still... 1.43x UTH EoR)

Flush Blind Bet = 2:1 TIE is Ante and Blind Push, and 1:1 upon Raise.


Suited89
some people need to reimagine their thinking
Deucekies
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February 14th, 2023 at 12:52:12 AM permalink
Quote: Suited89

I spent about 1 hour of my time looking to vastly improve the "ghost" offering of UTH with a 3x Large wager. I made two distinct changes to the payouts without altering the occurance. When I did this the H.A. dropped to 2.7918%, a 3.675 Ave. Bet yields 0.7597%. As far as I'm concerned, the Wiz or his designee can have it. (still... 1.43x UTH EoR)

Flush Blind Bet = 2:1 TIE is Ante and Blind Push, and 1:1 upon Raise.


Suited89
link to original post


Your first change would eliminate the need for 50¢ coins or $2.50 chips in the tray, making room for more workhorse chips. As a dealer and a floor, I'd love that change.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Wiggins
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February 25th, 2024 at 11:58:16 AM permalink


Big Blind UTH. Photo taken two days ago at Scarlet Pearl
JoeTheDragon
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February 25th, 2024 at 1:55:04 PM permalink
Quote: Wiggins



Big Blind UTH. Photo taken two days ago at Scarlet Pearl
link to original post


Galaxy's game Heads Up Holdem has an much better pay table.
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