odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 28th, 2021 at 5:53:39 AM permalink
Thanks for a thorough reply


Quote: Mission146

1.) I have to respectfully disagree with, 'Not having time to count the outs." ...

I suppose I should take courage from what you are saying and pushback hard against any hurry-up. One thing you can be sure of is how you will stand out. The other players are simplifying their play, unaware of correct strategy, with few exceptions. 3x on first decision, not 4x unless you have AA, a quick assessment on the flop [no kicker assessment], and another quickie on the turn/river. A player who plays this badly but likes UTH anyway is probably really good at spotting his straights, flushes, and likely-pushing boards. I swear some spot their straights before they see the cards!


Quote:

2.) What are the minimums in the casino you're talking about? 

As far as I know, the only place that has UTH close to me is Harrah's Cherokee in NC. The video game version lets you play for a dollar min, while they had the table game at $15. That's actually $2 and $30 because you place bets on ante and blind both, something I'm not sure the pit boss is thinking about. Probably you sometimes see $25; when you buy in you'd need mucho black chips for the 4x bet. 


Quote:

3.) You'll get that way with counting outs.  When you're playing a medium high card, the only thing you'll have to remember to pay special attention for is straight draws.  You'll see unpaired cards on the five-card board and won't even consider their ranks, you'll just think, "Three...Six...Nine...," and then any rank higher than your high card is four, so you're mostly adding by twos threes and fours.

I guess you're saying if you keep playing this gets fast too. But I say making the decision by "order of succession" is quicker, were you able to follow that?


Quote:

-Most queens call, with the most frequent exception being all undercards (to the queen) on an unpaired board.

true enough, but no need to 'call with all queens'. Just a factoid. I'm not saying you're advocating 'calling with any Qs', hope not anyway. 


Quote:

-It's probably not half the time exactly, but it seems like Jacks call about half the time....

see last comment  


Quote:

Jacks also call 2P on the board.

a useful chunk of BMM


Quote:

-Tens rarely call... -Nines very rarely call.

in the case of 9s, I'd forgive anyone who says he won't consider them, except when 18 outs is the issue. 


Quote:

Combine those general rules with counting outs and it becomes much faster.  You see the situation and sometimes almost immediately know how many outs that there are just from having seen the situation (and remembering the general rules) before.

note you too sometimes consider time it takes


Quote:

4.) That's a great tip for everyone.  It's always worth the second or two it takes to double-check so you're not folding straights.

the straight you weren't looking for at first can get me


Quote:

Also, you could just take a strategy card for the 4x decision.  When I play on WoO...it seems that I have a habit of forgetting Kx cutoffs, but otherwise have it down.  I don't know why I sometimes forget the Kx cutoff; that's pretty silly.

  yeah, I have to say, practice more, the 4x can be instant decision from minimal practice


Quote:

5.) Yeah, I agree about what you said post-flop (but before turn and river) and also think that's the toughest decision point.  For me, it's because I have practiced that the least on WoO because the individual possible decision points don't always come up a lot. 

agree, still not where I want to be


[snips] [lots of remarks about how much time a player is taking]


Quote:

8.) On your, "Accidental fold hand," my advice is to ALWAYS count outs after the Turn/River when you have absolute rags.  Besides, calling A-A-J-J-9 with 6-2 in your hand looks super bad ass, even though it's not.  I love that call!

yep!


[more snips, same point re time]


After all your urging I'll just have to see how it goes insisting I take all the time I need. However, there is also the element of wanting to play with as much BMM as I can. It can be a matter of pride. Back to the craps example, I feel good about myself when I observe all the etiquette. Not only do I not take forever to set the dice, but I keep my hands out of the way, don't buy in at awkward times, check if the dice are in the middle of the table for this or that, check to see if the puck is on or off when I walk up, etc. The dealers are happy and I'm happy. So I guess I'm making the point that taking too much time is a matter of etiquette too. 
But, you know, I think you can make better decisions too, if a good hunk of them are nearly automatic
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
100xOdds
100xOdds
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Mission146
June 28th, 2021 at 8:05:42 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Stephen How seems to address this on his strategy page:

https://discountgambling.net/ultimate-texas-holdem/

According to his strategy, it wouldn't matter if your kicker were a three---you would raise.

geez.. that strategy sheet looks confusing and intimidating compared to the Wiz's.

does it say the same thing as the Wiz's?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Mission146
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odiousgambit
June 28th, 2021 at 8:12:32 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Thanks for a thorough reply

I suppose I should take courage from what you are saying and pushback hard against any hurry-up. One thing you can be sure of is how you will stand out. The other players are simplifying their play, unaware of correct strategy, with few exceptions. 3x on first decision, not 4x unless you have AA, a quick assessment on the flop [no kicker assessment], and another quickie on the turn/river. A player who plays this badly but likes UTH anyway is probably really good at spotting his straights, flushes, and likely-pushing boards. I swear some spot their straights before they see the cards!



I'd definitely pushback if it's the dealer hurrying you. I'd just ignore other players, or if they ask why you take so long politely, explain why---it might help them play the game better themselves.

The casino's bread is buttered with player mistakes, that's for sure. The game has such a low HE/EoR that Table Minimum would probably be barely profitable if everyone were playing perfectly and not making any side bets. I'm sure there's nothing that the casino would love more than players who do nothing but 4x Raise in the dark. I saw a guy doing the equivalent of that, except it was on Mississippi Stud, I think. He was just betting max across and, as I recall, not even looking at his cards.

Quote:

As far as I know, the only place that has UTH close to me is Harrah's Cherokee in NC. The video game version lets you play for a dollar min, while they had the table game at $15. That's actually $2 and $30 because you place bets on ante and blind both, something I'm not sure the pit boss is thinking about. Probably you sometimes see $25; when you buy in you'd need mucho black chips for the 4x bet. 



That sucks and I'm sorry to hear it. Any table I've ever played has been $5, but I think a few of the places around me have mostly gone up to $10, post-lockdowns. I didn't play, but I know of one where I recall still seeing $5.

Quote:

I guess you're saying if you keep playing this gets fast too. But I say making the decision by "order of succession" is quicker, were you able to follow that?



Yes, I imagine even playing optimally there's no one, 'Right," way to go about it. For example, you mentioned missing possible straights after the Turn/River, but I don't think I would, because it's just natural for me to have identified all possible straights (with what I have) already before the cards are even turned over; same thing with flushes. So, I suggested that a person could do that check down order after every river, but I've already done Straight/Flush, essentially, in advance.

For that reason, by the time I see the Turn/River cards, I'm generally ready to start counting unless I have paired up. Paired up, I'm pretty much only worried about open-ended straights as well as a four-flush community hand on an unpaired board with me holding bottom pair using one of my hole cards with a bad kicker.

Quote:

true enough, but no need to 'call with all queens'. Just a factoid. I'm not saying you're advocating 'calling with any Qs', hope not anyway. 


see last comment  


a useful chunk of BMM



Oh, not at all. I meant my qualifications to those statements in a literal way.

Quote:

in the case of 9s, I'd forgive anyone who says he won't consider them, except when 18 outs is the issue. 



No way, winning holding nine kicker to whatever the board is looks too awesome to pass up when it's the right decision anyway!

Quote:

note you too sometimes consider time it takes



Honestly, not really. I've just played the WoO UTH game A LOT, so most of my decisions are de facto automatic. It's a truly excellent table game and is just an inspired work of brilliance on the part of Roger Snow. If I'm playing it with my money on the table, I'll take as long as I need---lucky for them that won't be very long, not that I'd care if it was.

Quote:

the straight you weren't looking for at first can get me



I agree. I'm just in the habit of identifying possible straights way ahead of those cards coming out, so I'm kind of always looking for them. I don't know how much Texas Hold 'Em (as opposed to UTH) you've played, but I've played some, so I think I'm just automatically in the habit of looking for those even before I ever saw UTH.

Quote:

yeah, I have to say, practice more, the 4x can be instant decision from minimal practice


agree, still not where I want to be


[snips] [lots of remarks about how much time a player is taking]


yep!


[more snips, same point re time]



I just have a hole in my brain where the king off cards are supposed to be---I have no idea why! Playing this in a casino, I'd probably just stack my chips in a way that two piles tell me my king off cards, I don't need the 4x chart for anything else.

Quote:

After all your urging I'll just have to see how it goes insisting I take all the time I need. However, there is also the element of wanting to play with as much BMM as I can. It can be a matter of pride. Back to the craps example, I feel good about myself when I observe all the etiquette. Not only do I not take forever to set the dice, but I keep my hands out of the way, don't buy in at awkward times, check if the dice are in the middle of the table for this or that, check to see if the puck is on or off when I walk up, etc. The dealers are happy and I'm happy. So I guess I'm making the point that taking too much time is a matter of etiquette too. 
But, you know, I think you can make better decisions too, if a good hunk of them are nearly automatic



I agree with all of that, except I'd consider, "Not stalling," a point of etiquette but not so much taking your time to make the right decision.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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June 28th, 2021 at 8:14:08 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

geez.. that strategy sheet looks confusing and intimidating compared to the Wiz's.

does it say the same thing as the Wiz's?



I don't know. I have seen both, but haven't thoroughly compared the two. One of the things I like best about the play for fun games on WoO is that I'm better at learning things like that by way of practice. Making mistakes isn't so bad when it's fake money and the game lets you change your decision anyway.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 28th, 2021 at 8:14:39 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

geez.. that strategy sheet looks confusing and intimidating compared to the Wiz's.

does it say the same thing as the Wiz's?

I can't/won't use it. Heavy jargon is only one of the reasons.

Also, I maintain you have only so much time [considering etiquette at least] vis a vis the number of decisions you have to make. A complicated strategy card doesn't fit into my idea of combating the problem, which is to be the best you can with automatic-at-sight decisions through practice*

* Or you could say 'BMM', but I gotta mix it up!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 28th, 2021 at 8:34:51 AM permalink
[a lot of snipping where I don't have much to add]
Quote: Mission146

The casino's bread is buttered with player mistakes, that's for sure. The game has such a low HE/EoR that Table Minimum would probably be barely profitable if everyone were playing perfectly and not making any side bets. I'm sure there's nothing that the casino would love more than players who do nothing but 4x Raise in the dark. I saw a guy doing the equivalent of that, except it was on Mississippi Stud, I think. He was just betting max across and, as I recall, not even looking at his cards.

eventually you see it all



Quote:

That sucks and I'm sorry to hear it. Any table I've ever played has been $5, but I think a few of the places around me have mostly gone up to $10, post-lockdowns. I didn't play, but I know of one where I recall still seeing $5.

please list where they still have this game near you, but exclude the Texas Holdem Bonus variety unless you have some good news [i'm a little rusty as to why I don't like it, paytables they typically choose maybe?]


Quote:

... you mentioned missing possible straights after the Turn/River, but I don't think I would, because it's just natural for me to have identified all possible straights (with what I have) already before the cards are even turned over; same thing with flushes.

let me be very specific as to what might get me. It's the 3,7 unsuited start again, say, no chance 2-6, 3-7, 4-8 straights escape me. 7-J shouldn't either, but if I'm sloppy I might not look at the board hard and realize in the jumble there's a straight only needing my 7. I'm maybe affected by disappointment at getting the 3,7 starter. Or maybe it's just me. Gotta look hard at that board!

No comment on the "order of succession" method?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Mission146
Mission146
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June 28th, 2021 at 8:40:57 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

[

please list where they still have this game near you, but exclude the Texas Holdem Bonus variety unless you have some good news [i'm a little rusty as to why I don't like it, paytables they typically choose maybe?]



The Meadows, The Rivers, Wheeling Island Hotel-Casino-Racetrack, LIVE! Casino Pittsburgh...and probably Mountaineer, though I haven't been to Mountaineer post-COVID, so maybe not.

Quote:

let me be very specific as to what might get me. It's the 3,7 unsuited start again, say, no chance 2-6, 3-7, 4-8 straights escape me. 7-J shouldn't either, but if I'm sloppy I might not look at the board hard and realize in the jumble there's a straight only needing my 7. I'm maybe affected by disappointment at getting the 3,7 starter. Or maybe it's just me. Gotta look hard at that board!

No comment on the "order of succession" method?



What was the, "Order of succession," meaning...for the final decision point? Flushes, Straights, Pairs, count outs against one's high card?

I understand what you're saying about missing straights. I think that's just the difference, perhaps, in how much THE (not UTH) we have played. When I see the flop, it's just instinctive for me to count suited cards and identify all possible straights. It's as close to automatic as something like that can be, for me.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 28th, 2021 at 10:21:04 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

The Meadows, The Rivers, Wheeling Island Hotel-Casino-Racetrack, LIVE! Casino Pittsburgh...and probably Mountaineer, though I haven't been to Mountaineer post-COVID, so maybe not.

thanks. Hmmm.

Quote:

What was the, "Order of succession," meaning...for the final decision point?

I am adept at that point anyway, looking for 21 outs.

It's memorizing what card always is good for kicker and how that drops down to a lower rank when the board holds a card of higher rank. If the board has it, both you and the dealer have that card, so it is not a card that he can out-kick you with.

Say it's a rainbow, jumble board of low ranking cards on the last stage. It takes a K in your hand to avoid 21 outs as the 5 cards times 3 equals 15, the dealer can't beat you get to 21 outs with just an Ace, that adds 4 to equal 19 outs, if you have that K. If he has a K too, you can't be beat with it.

If the board has an A or K, but your best kicker is a Q, this is the first step in "succession". You don't need a K anymore, and the Q is good, because he could only have a K if the board has an A, and vice versa, to beat you with. Yeah, say the Board has a K but he has an A. Your Q is still good, it's only giving him 4 + 15=19 still as the 3 Ks that the board doesn't have are not counted are only counted as part of the original 15 as outs [edit], the board has a K so you both have a K. It is very quick to see the Q is good and you don't have to count, you see, you just see and know. This continues to J and 10 and 9. You don't need to take the time to count. [edit: by 'good' I mean it avoids dealer reaching 21 outs]

Quote:

Flushes, Straights, Pairs, count outs against one's high card?

Pairs do, but you don't try to use your kicker against open ended straights or 4 flushes acc to most strategies I've seen.

This is what I wrote upthread,
Quote:

After playing enough, I think most players develop a system. If the board is an unpaired, rainbowed jumble, K alone is a good kicker and you bet [with A you already bet]. If higher cards are present, there is an "order of succession" you might say. If there is A or K on the board, the Q is good; if both A and K, or K and Q, i.e. any two higher, then J is good. This can go down to a 10 or 9, but you might be running into a very high dealer straight.



I got 'order of succession' from the rules for replacing the POTUS, you know it's vice pres, then speaker of the house, and all that. You won't see this term used anywhere but this thread I think.
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Jun 28, 2021
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 28th, 2021 at 10:34:14 AM permalink
I just realized I shouldn't say the dealer can't beat you, it's just that he can't get to 21 outs

fixed now I hope
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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Mission146
June 29th, 2021 at 2:05:18 PM permalink
See if you can determine why you bet instead of fold with this hand and this board, UTH of course. 

a] Counting the outs tells you to fold and this the case of an exception to the 21 outs.
or 
b] The count tells you to bet. 

I'm pretty sure the calculator goes by total probability and does not 'count the outs' per se. The board represents so many outs, and the dealer could also have K,Q,J,10, four cards representing 16 outs that get added to what the board represents in outs.

is it a or b? For your answer, using spoiler cover would be polite. 



I say this is related to the Wizard's statement at his site , "I get asked a lot about combinations of cards that will beat the player. For example, any two dealer spades that would give the dealer a flush in the example above [see site]. The answer is no. It would really make things complicated if the strategy accounted for double-card combinations that would beat the player."

This, though, would be a special case of this. I say you don't count the 4s on the board as possible outs! If the dealer had one 4 he would have another pair, sure, but now he has 3 pair with that and can only use 5 cards of course. So one 4 is useless and is not counted as an out. If he has 2 fours, he would have a full house, true, but having a pocket pair of 4s as a possibility, though real, goes against the Wizard's statement about that in counting the 21 outs. 

The board represents only 4 outs! 2 aces and 2 6s. 16 more outs in K,Q,J,10 gets you to only 20 and you do bet! this is my answer anyway. The answer is 'b', counting the outs tells you to bets

BTW I'd say I miss this every time when playing!


https://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/calculator/
https://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

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