dk
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November 3rd, 2009 at 12:13:50 AM permalink
My game of choice in Vegas is Pai Gow. But I've only played at MGM, TI, Venetian, and Palazzo. Does anyone know of other casinos that offer this game?
Last edited by: dk on Nov 9, 2009
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Wizard
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November 10th, 2009 at 5:39:18 PM permalink
Quote: dk

My game of choice in Vegas is Pai Gow. But I've only played at MGM, TI, Venetian, and Palazzo. Does anyone know of other casinos that offer this game?



You can also find pai gow tiles at Bellagio, Caesars Palace, Encore, Harrah's, Mandalay Bay, Mirage, Palace Station, Paris, Rio, and Wynn.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
dk
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November 10th, 2009 at 6:14:20 PM permalink
Thanks for the reply.

Are $25 tables standard for this game in Vegas? Does any casino offer tables with lower minimums? Do any of the casinos routinely have higher minimums?

How much do the house rules vary from one place to the next? If I recall correctly, Venetian/Palazzo allows players to bank together against the house, but MGM does not. Also, Palazzo allows a player to bank against the house for his previous bet + 10%. Do other casinos follow this practice as well?
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JB
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November 10th, 2009 at 11:47:39 PM permalink
Quote: dk

Thanks for the reply.

Are $25 tables standard for this game in Vegas? Does any casino offer tables with lower minimums? Do any of the casinos routinely have higher minimums?

How much do the house rules vary from one place to the next? If I recall correctly, Venetian/Palazzo allows players to bank together against the house, but MGM does not. Also, Palazzo allows a player to bank against the house for his previous bet + 10%. Do other casinos follow this practice as well?



Harrah's and Paris have a minimum bet of $15 most of the time, and Palace Station's minimum is usually $10.

I think most casinos use the following strategy:

Pairs
  • Never split pairs of 4's, 5's, 6's, 10's or 11's
  • Gee Joon: Split with 6-4, 6-5, 6-6
  • 2's and 12's: Split to make 6/8 or better, and with 9-11
  • 7's: split to make 7/high 9 or better
  • 8's: split to make 7/9 or 8/8 or better
  • 9's: split to make 9/9 or better


Wong, Gong, High Nine
The order of preference is High Nine > Gong > Wong as long as it yields a low hand of rank Chong 3 or better. If the low hand is lower than Chong 3, then the order of preference is Wong > Gong > High Nine.

Note that some places might play 3/Gong even if it is not a Chong 3, though I'm not sure who might do this.

All Other
Play the best high hand if it is worth 7 or more points and the best low hand is lower than a Chong 3, otherwise play the best low hand.

Exceptions
  • H0,L0,9,L8: play 8/high 9
  • H8,11,L8,10: play 8/high 9
  • H6,L6,GJ,11: play 7/high 9
  • H4,L4,GJ,5: play high 7/9
  • H0,H8,11,7: play 7/9
  • H2,6,GJ,5: play 7/9
  • L2,6,GJ,5: play 7/9
  • H2,L2,5,GJ: play 7/high 8
  • H2,L2,5,6: play 7/high 8
  • H0,L0,H6,9: play 6/high 9
  • H0,L0,H6,L8: play 6/high 8
  • H0,L0,H6,7: play 6/high 7
  • H8,L8,9,7: play high 5/7
  • H8,L8,H4,7: play 2/high 5


Common Variations
  • Some places never split Gee Joon. Casino Canberra (in Australia) follows this rule, and I have an unconfirmed report that Caesar's Palace does too.
  • Foxwoods plays 1/Wong instead of 3/High Nine, even if the 3 is higher than a Chong 3
  • When given a choice, the Venetian never plays the 12 in the low hand if they also have a 2. For example, with H2-L2-10-11 they play 2/high 3 instead of high 2/3.
  • The Venetian only looks for a low hand of 3 points or better, regardless of whether it is a Chong 3. This applies to the Wong-Gong-High Nine rule as well as the All Other rule.
  • Foxwoods splits 7's to make 7/7 or better. Most Vegas casinos require a Teen or Day to split 7's.
  • The Atlantic City Hilton splits 7's with 9 and 11. The reason they do this is because it plays more points (14) than not splitting (12), although mathematically it is better to not split the pair.
dk
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November 12th, 2009 at 1:03:44 PM permalink
Quote: JB

  • When given a choice, the Venetian never plays the 12 in the low hand if they also have a 2. For example, with H2-L2-10-11 they play 2/high 3 instead of high 2/3.
  • The Venetian only looks for a low hand of 3 points or better, regardless of whether it is a Chong 3. This applies to the Wong-Gong-High Nine rule as well as the All Other rule.



If I understand correctly:
  • With 2-H8-7-5, Foxwoods and Venetian will play 3/High 9
  • With 2-L8-7-5, Foxwoods will play 2/Gong, but Venetian will play 3/High 9
  • With H2-L2-10-6, both Foxwoods and Venetian will play 4/6
  • With H4-9-8-6, both Foxwoods and Venetian will play 3/4
  • With L4-9-8-6, Foxwoods will play 0/7, but Venetian will play 3/4

Is that correct?
The ratio of people to cake is too big.
dk
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November 24th, 2009 at 11:58:52 AM permalink
Is it permissable to write notes at a Pai Gow table?

Specifically, I'd like to take notes (1) on my own play so I can go back and check if I played the hand correctly, and (2) on the House Way so I can devise a more optimal strategy against that casino. Obviously I wouldn't tell the casino about reason #2.
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dwheatley
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November 24th, 2009 at 1:06:03 PM permalink
I will be the first to guess the answer is yes. You might want to ask permission from a supervisor first
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FleaStiff
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November 24th, 2009 at 2:00:11 PM permalink
If you tell them you are a system player or are trying to develop a system they usually are so secretly amused by it that they don't much care. Just so long as the camera's view of the playing surface is not obscured they probably won't care.
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November 24th, 2009 at 4:42:35 PM permalink
Quote: dk

Is it permissable to write notes at a Pai Gow table?



Yes. I'm quite sure there is no rule against it. I don't think it is even necessary to do so in plain view of the camera or get permission. What harm could you be doing? I think the only game where they would be sensitive about that is blackjack, and only if you did so every hand.
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JB
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November 24th, 2009 at 5:43:19 PM permalink
Quote: dk

If I understand correctly:

  • With 2-H8-7-5, Foxwoods and Venetian will play 3/High 9
  • With 2-L8-7-5, Foxwoods will play 2/Gong, but Venetian will play 3/High 9
  • With H2-L2-10-6, both Foxwoods and Venetian will play 4/6
  • With H4-9-8-6, both Foxwoods and Venetian will play 3/4
  • With L4-9-8-6, Foxwoods will play 0/7, but Venetian will play 3/4

Is that correct?



Yes, your understanding of each situation is correct.
dk
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November 24th, 2009 at 6:37:18 PM permalink
It appears that the optimal play against the Venetian house way involves playing best low more often than when playing against the Foxwoods house way. I'm using a 1/21 commission (i.e., prepay) and calculating the optimal play separately depending on player/dealer bank. Looks like the Venetian's house edge is slightly lower than Foxwoods'. I come up with a house edge of about 0.6% with optimal play when banking every other hand, prepaying commission, and betting 10% more when banking.
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teddys
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November 24th, 2009 at 7:16:59 PM permalink
Sorry for the aside, but I just have to salute you if you are able to play with a -.60% edge in this game. My mind always goes into a fog when I try to play PG tiles.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
JB
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November 24th, 2009 at 7:29:07 PM permalink
You are correct that it lowers the house edge a bit, and that optimal player strategy sets the best low hand more often.

If you want a fun challenge, study the following combination when playing against the Venetian house way:

H7, L7, 5, L6

The results may surprise you.
dk
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November 24th, 2009 at 8:00:32 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

Sorry for the aside, but I just have to salute you if you are able to play with a -.60% edge in this game. My mind always goes into a fog when I try to play PG tiles.


Not at all. I said I calculated optimal play to result in a 0.6% house edge, not that I could do it. Two very different skills.
The ratio of people to cake is too big.
dk
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November 24th, 2009 at 8:05:32 PM permalink
Quote: JB

You are correct that it lowers the house edge a bit, and that optimal player strategy sets the best low hand more often.

If you want a fun challenge, study the following combination when playing against the Venetian house way:

H7, L7, 5, L6

The results may surprise you.


It appears the best play is the alternate hand--Low 2/High 3. That is quite surprising because I can't see what you're gaining by pumping up the back hand (over playing best low). Hopefully, I never have the opportunity to take advantage of this knowledge because that is an aweful hand no matter how you slice it.
Last edited by: dk on Nov 25, 2009
The ratio of people to cake is too big.
JB
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November 26th, 2009 at 7:13:29 AM permalink
Quote: dk

It appears the best play is the alternate hand--Low 2/High 3. That is quite surprising because I can't see what you're gaining by pumping up the back hand (over playing best low). Hopefully, I never have the opportunity to take advantage of this knowledge because that is an aweful hand no matter how you slice it.


That is correct. It is surprising because playing low 2/high 3 improves the high hand by only one notch, and downgrades the low hand by 4 notches.

The following table shows every combination where playing low 2/high 3 has a different outcome than high 2/low 3. The net result is that playing 2/high 3 improves 7 combinations when the dealer is banking, and 3 combinations when you are banking:

Dealer Tiles Dealer Combinations Dealer Banker Result Player Banker Result
GJ, GJ, 5, L7 1 Downgrade No Change
GJ, GJ, 5, H7 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, L8, L8 1 Downgrade No Change
5, L8, L8, H7 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, 9, 9 1 Downgrade No Change
5, 9, 9, H7 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, L0, L0 1 Downgrade No Change
5, H7, L0, L0 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, 11, 11 1 Downgrade No Change
5, H7, 11, 11 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, L4, L4 1 Downgrade No Change
5, H7, L4, L4 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, H6, H6 1 Downgrade No Change
5, H7, H6, H6 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, H0, H0 1 Downgrade No Change
5, H7, H0, H0 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, H4, H4 1 Downgrade No Change
5, H7, H4, H4 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, H8, H8 1 Downgrade No Change
5, H7, H8, H8 1 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, L8, L6 2 Upgrade No Change
5, L7, L6, H7 1 Upgrade Downgrade
5, L8, L6, H7 2 No Change Upgrade
L7, L8, L6, L4 4 Upgrade No Change
L7, L6, H7, L4 2 No Change Upgrade
L8, L6, H7, L4 4 No Change Upgrade
5, L7, L6, H6 2 Downgrade No Change
5, L7, H7, H6 2 No Change Downgrade
5, L6, H7, H6 2 No Change Downgrade
L7, L8, L6, H4 4 Upgrade No Change
L7, L6, H7, H4 2 No Change Upgrade
L8, L6, H7, H4 4 No Change Upgrade
L7, L6, L4, H8 4 Upgrade No Change
L6, H7, L4, H8 4 No Change Upgrade
L7, L6, H4, H8 4 Upgrade No Change
L6, H7, H4, H8 4 No Change Upgrade
5, L7, H7, L2 2 No Change Downgrade
5, L7, H7, H2 2 No Change Downgrade
dk
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November 27th, 2009 at 1:40:00 AM permalink
JB,

What strategy do you use when playing against a player banker? I would think the best would be your optimal strategy listed on the Wizard of Odds Pai Gow page. Do you have any tips for how to alter this (or any other) strategy once you start to get a feel for how the banker is playing to exploit their (hopefully) sub-optimal play? The reason I ask is that I'm planning a trip to Macau, but I don't know what strategy the players there use, so I have no way to develop a counter-strategy.

Thanks.
The ratio of people to cake is too big.
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November 27th, 2009 at 2:55:57 AM permalink
Quote: dk

JB,

What strategy do you use when playing against a player banker? I would think the best would be your optimal strategy listed on the Wizard of Odds Pai Gow page. Do you have any tips for how to alter this (or any other) strategy once you start to get a feel for how the banker is playing to exploit their (hopefully) sub-optimal play? The reason I ask is that I'm planning a trip to Macau, but I don't know what strategy the players there use, so I have no way to develop a counter-strategy.

Thanks.


I actually sit out when another player is banking. I don't recall ever having played against a player banker.

If I didn't sit out, I would use the same strategy as when the house is banking. It wouldn't matter to me who was banking unless it was me (you either have the advantage of winning zero/copy hands, or you don't). Plus, chances are good that a player banker will set their hand the same way the house would anyway.

I would recommend playing using your normal strategy, but keep an eye out for other players' hands. For example, a relatively common deal is 4-7-8-10. I would check to see if they set it as 4/5 or 1/8. Whichever they do most often, I would do the opposite. That is, if they played 4/5 then it's probably safe to say that they prefer the best low hand, so I would go for the best high hand if your best low hand isn't very good.
teddys
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November 27th, 2009 at 8:57:27 AM permalink
Quote: JB


I actually sit out when another player is banking. I don't recall ever having played against a player banker.



Why do you sit out against player bankers? Is it because you don't want to take their money, and/or because you are a heavy bettor? If so, I respect that. People never seem to have a problem playing against me when I bank in PG tiles or poker. On the other hand, nor do I have a problem playing against them :)
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Cardinal
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December 12th, 2009 at 2:13:03 PM permalink
I will be in Vegas soon and playing Pai Gow for the first time. I was wondering about how much time I have to set my tiles before people get upset. I would guess 15-20 seconds, but would like to know what to expect.
dk
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December 13th, 2009 at 1:49:18 AM permalink
Quote: Cardinal

I was wondering about how much time I have to set my tiles before people get upset. I would guess 15-20 seconds, but would like to know what to expect.


The answer really depends on who else is at your table. If it's just you and the dealer, which is not at all uncommon, you can basically take as much time as you want. If there are other players, just try to match their speed or not take more than about 5 seconds more than the next slowest player. It's okay to take a little longer once in awhile, but don't consistently hold up every hand. At a table with experienced players, 15 seconds is probably fine, 20 is on the boarder of being too slow.

My best advice is to find an empty table, or one with players who are playing at the speed you are comfortable with.
The ratio of people to cake is too big.
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December 13th, 2009 at 6:10:12 PM permalink
When I started playing, I was made to leave for playing too slowly at the MGM. As you wrote, it would depend on a lot on the conditions at the time, the more players, especially if they are betting big, the less patient the floor supervisor will be. Under average conditions, I think you should make a decision within about 30 seconds.
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Aussie
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January 9th, 2010 at 10:48:25 PM permalink
Could anyone tell me how many tables of Pai Gow (tiles) are at the MGM? What table limits can I expect to see?
Wizard
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April 14th, 2015 at 7:00:36 PM permalink
Quote: Aussie

Could anyone tell me how many tables of Pai Gow (tiles) are at the MGM? What table limits can I expect to see?



One or two, depending on how busy it is. Usually just one. I'd guess the limits to be $25-$5000.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
sodawater
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April 14th, 2015 at 11:21:05 PM permalink
Haha...five years to answer this question.
Mission146
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April 15th, 2015 at 12:31:42 PM permalink
Current info, though.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Aussie
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April 15th, 2015 at 3:37:06 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

One or two, depending on how busy it is. Usually just one. I'd guess the limits to be $25-$5000.




Thanks Wizard!
I never did make it to MGM though. Ended up staying and playing at Wynn/Encore. Will keep your info in mind next time I return!
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