Ez pai Gow yay or nay

Does anyone dislike ez pai Gow or is it just me. Personally I can't stand ez pai Gow. To me it is becoming a carnival game. I love being able to enjoy player-banker. There are claims ezpaigow has a lower house edge but that is so far from the truth. Getting rid of player-banker creates a big edge to the house when u consider they have no edge when u are banker, also the queen high pai Gow push can really screw u over. If you happened to make a bigger bet when that shows up it will cost u more than commission ever would.

Pai gow poker should contain player-banker. Pai gow tiles contains it, and real poker is always player vs player. The notion that player banker should stick to card rooms is ridiculous. It is what makes pai Gow. Pai Gow.

I don't mind a slower pace because of a lack of commission. But i can't stand the queen high push or the lack of player-banker. Having player banker shouldn't bother anyone. If you aren't banking it is literally no different for you as a player. It just seems like ez was designed for a lazy or unskilled dealer who doesn't want to or cant handle banker and commission.

Also I like the idea different casinos can have different house ways. It is true for blackjack and many other games. In Macau dealers don't hit soft 17. It is still blackjack. Some places in Vegas pay 6:5. It is still Blackjack.

I removed player banking as a bog on the game, as banking produces countless delays and dealer errors, and annoys the crap out of non-banking players for the sake of the one player who's banking. Oftentimes it is only to show off a banking player's pseudo game acumen, or to scrounge a small reduction in HE at the expense of everything else and everyone else at the table.

Now, the offering casino house may elect to restore playing banking on commission-free Pai Gow Poker as a rare exception, with the following rules.
1. Commissions are re-instated on the game for the banking player only, and up to the nearest dollar, (not 25 cent piece, as there are no quarters on the table.) Winning non-banking players do not have to pay a commission during that round of banking play, only the banker.
2. The banking player does not get the commission-free mechanism. A Queen-high Pai Gow hand for the banking player is generally a total loss, as the player does not get the right or the ability to use the casino house mechanism, being "not the casino." (Now, if the banking player wishes to pay for the dealers' salaries and the casino's light bill, the banking player may then use the casino house mechanism.)

EZ Pai Gow is designed to be faster AND easier to deal - and it is. By far it is much better than either commission-based games or games that are banked to death. It also has a lower house edge for players, so the non-banking players prefer it.

Player banking does bother a lot of other Pai Gow Poker players, as it should, since it bogs the game down. It is different for the non-banking player.
Pai Gow Poker does not need to have player banking, as many years of production use has verified. For that matter, Blackjack, craps, and roulette also do fine without player banking.

The house may also use any house way they wish, as this is a non-issue. And the banking rituals are the carnival-town part of the game anyway.

The casino operators are very satisfied with the product, and it's been out for years. Some casinos had Pai Gow Poker become their primary revenue game with it, such as the Cannery Group.

If you wish to bank, play regular commission-based PGP or go to the poker room, what can I tell you.

Pai gow is the oldest game in a casino and has always done great with player banking. Basically you just cater to unskilled dealers. A skilled dealer should be able to handle player-banker at a fast pace

We cater to those who prefer it;

The casino operators like its ease and speed of play, the non-banking players do not at all miss the banking players, and dealers find it quick and easy to deal.

And you're right, dealers should all be perfect and wonderful, but we live in the real world. Anything that helps the dealers deal better and faster, or the non-banking players enjoy the game more, and for the casino to offer this are a plus.

All good.

If it is any consolation, I am one of the last people who bought a full-size car with an old school manual transmission (2013 Ford Fusion), - and many people ask me, "why don't I get with the times?" I say they're right, and will join the future on my next car.


Play where you want.

Quote: RoyalGeejoon

Pai gow is the oldest game in a casino and has always done great with player banking. Basically you just cater to unskilled dealers. A skilled dealer should be able to handle player-banker at a fast pace

Don't mind Dan. But you can't blame him for backing his baby (He created EZ-PGP).

I agree, standard PGP is better for players that bank as much as possible. His version is better for those that don't.

And I don't mean to be insulting. I am just looking for other opinions on it. Everyone can play whatever game they like.

I understand.

I was looking for options that would help the speed of play, and make it easier to deal, and give players full pay on a win, and provide a lower house edge, and be appealing to casinos as a product.

Let me put it this way: you can't have the benefits of a manual transmission with an automatic, and the benefits of an automatic with a manual stick. To each his own.

As a player that rarely banks, EZ PGP is a good game and I like winning 1-1 vs. 0.95 even though I know that it all works out with the Queen High Mechanism to be very close to the same.

If you bank, just stick to places that allow it...plenty of regular Fortune & Emperor's Challenge tables to play.

How many houses have done away with Banking on their Commission PGP tables? Assume it is rare, but like 6:5 in BJ, I would assume that being able to Bank in PGP will become the exception and not the rule even in Commission games....unless you want to play at black chip level or above. Time will tell.

As a player of Pai Gow Poker, a Dealer of Pai Gow Poker and a Supervisor of Pai Gow Poker, I prefer the no commission version in every situation.

Player banking definitely slows the game down. I've also found that the person that chooses to bank is generally either:

A. Someone who likes to show off and talk about why he banks to other players and tells all his friends how he always wins if a place let's him bank.

B. Thinks that the miniscule difference in lost house edge is going to allow him to beat the house and he can now be considered a professional gambler or casino employee.


ZCore13

No commission does make dealing easier. As does no player banker. And I get that the house has no interest in player banker without commission. If only there were a solution that could be developed for that. I personally love being banker because I love the rush and idea that the stakes are essentially out of my control after I decide to bank. I guess I also enjoy the "competitive nature" of it.. I feel this is why a lot of people dislike it. Some people can't stand the idea of giving their money to another player, but giving it to the casino on a daily basis is ok. I've also noticed that even in games like ez Baccarat that are faster paced variants due to no commission there are always people who are unhappy with the pace. They are simply impatient. They take forever to place their bets but, the moment their bet is out they harass the dealer to pull out the cards immediately as if only their bets matter.

Quote: RoyalGeejoon

A skilled dealer should be able to handle player-banker at a fast pace

Should and skilled are terms that MBAs don't care for. The casino prefers to be able to hire just any old automaton and have a certain HE and Rate of Play right out of the box. Relying on a dealer who has to learn how to related to players who do want to bank and do it promptly is not what casino managers and green eye shade types want to do.

Won't say where but there is a casino that allows banking commission free in ez pai gow and the also allow banking in Asia poker which is a huge edge

It's been my experience that a large percentage of Pai Gow players have a disdain for player banking. I've seen players leave the table when someone says "Bank".

The worst I ever saw was a player who would bank, and then sat out for the next several hands so nobody could bank against him.

Lately I have been banking every chance I get when playing Pai Gow Poker. Helps even out the odds. Remember also a lot of players don't set their hands the best way, giving the banker a nice edge.

Banking annoys me.

I once chunked five black against a banking showboater just for the schadenfreude, should I win.

I got a hand like Ah * Kh Qs Jh Jd 9h (and thanked God); I could play Aces and Jacks, or the flush with QJ up, or the King-high straight with AJ. Had to think for a moment. I played AJ / KQJ*9, and the banker had A-10 / 8822x, two pairs with an Ace up, a fine hand but not enough. It was the only way I could have won. He won twenty bucks from the other players but lost $500 to me. The guy was pissed, but I was double happy. The man's wife sitting with him looked at him like, "You moron, what were you trying to prove??" Ah, icing on the cake.

The other players were pissed at the banker, aside from me. NO ONE was happy with the result, aside from me. I later tried to punish a banker with such a bet and lost.

I like banking, win or lose I don't get mad at the others nor do I showboat.

Ditto. On a related note, are there any casinos in Las Vegas that let you bank every other hand, assuming no other player wishes to bank, or do all the casinos have a maximum frequency of one hand out of seven for any one player to bank?

Quote: bw

Ditto. On a related note, are there any casinos in Las Vegas that let you bank every other hand, assuming no other player wishes to bank, or do all the casinos have a maximum frequency of one hand out of seven for any one player to bank?

The only place I've seen that allowed was MGM Detroit. So maybe check with their properties in Vegas.

Quote: bw

Ditto. On a related note, are there any casinos in Las Vegas that let you bank every other hand, assuming no other player wishes to bank, or do all the casinos have a maximum frequency of one hand out of seven for any one player to bank?

A couple of people mentioned or obliquely referred to this LV-area casino.

Actually, it is the Fiesta Henderson, (777 Lake Mead Parkway, Henderson, NV). Dealt there for years.
The Fiesta was also the introduction casino of EZ pg back in March 2010. I worked there, I pushed it there, and DEQ and I gave them a free-for-life deal on two tables for the intro.

To install it, the Fiesta back then insisted on keeping player banking for the first NV install, just to keep things similar to the existing PGP protocol, and in disagreement with the "Official Best Practices" recommendations of me and DEQ. While most later installs heartily took up the "NO Commission, No Banking" purpose of the new game, Fiesta insisted on maintaining Old-School similarity, and we said "okay" for that install, as it meant to have the first install in the state of Nevada.

Commission-free PGP was installed there March 2010, with Blessings to Teresa Gonzales TGD for the hard-fought decision. It was up and running straight away, having previously installed it at the Barona Casino in California, and at Council Bluffs, Iowa with Ameristar Casinos by that point.

Players who had intended to bank would generally play $20 the prior hand, to have less breakage. Now for the play - which'll show exactly how troublesome commission-banking on a commission-free PGP game can get:

1. The first banking hand that is played between banker and house dealer (before the player-to-player action) was commission-free, - as the playing banker did indeed play against the house dealer who had use of the commission-free mechanism, being the house dealer. Some dealers made the mistake of charging the player banking a commission on this sub-round where the dealer can use the "push mechanism," and up to the nearest dollar. Arguments and floor intervention only resulted.

2. When the player-to-player banking period of the round occurred, the winning non-banking players were forgiven the commission to the house, while the banker was not. This was done to keep the game commission-free for all "innocent and humble" non-banking players, - and in the spirit of commission-free PGP. Since all wins and losses went through the one who chose to bank, the action went through him, and he had to pay the 5% commission, which in his favor was generally very close to a 25-cent level of accuracy, being a much larger dollar amount.

3. Also during the player-to-player banking period, the banking player did not have the right or the use to use the dealer push mechanism, - as it would both give an advantage to the banker during player-to-player action, as well as provide no house "house" advantage mechanism, as being used by a player. We got some protests from banking players on this, as they would say "But I'm the house, here!!" to which we would respond "No you're not, and you're just a player out of [dealer] uniform here to prove it. You're a player playing against other players wishing to seek an advantage. A player CANNOT have a game-play advantage over his fellow players, when playing player-to-player. The answer is No." And yes, a couple of times a player banker had a Queen-high Pai Gow hand, and it had to stay in action for his loss, and for his risk in choosing to be a player banker.

4. As a Fiesta Henderson (Stations casino group) dealer who had invented the game, I was called off of a busy crap table or a UTH table, in order to deal banking commission-free PGP. (Tap-in, Tap-out, new dealer on the game, etc.) Management's attitude was "you invented this thing, you deal with it," no matter HOW many times I reminded them of Best Practices, where DEQ and I (and as the person at the property in Uniform) said "Commission-free is also Banking free - For the Double Win! We done warned you!"

A few months after that, the Cannery Group (East Side Cannery, Rampart Casino, and the West Side/North Cannery) Converted their PGP tables to EZ Pai Gow, where we enforced it to be 100% Commission-free Banker-free Pai Gow Poker, problems were solved, no matter how itchy a few demanding players wish to bank. The increase in PGP action made Pai Gow Poker beat even Blackjack in terms of drop and action, at least at the East Side Joint, (So some people are right, PGP is staging a huge comeback as a primary casino game.)

Now, I do wish to address the Question, Why can't banking be a GOOD thing on Commission-free Pai Gow Poker?

This is simple and sensible: during player banking, the casino cannot use its game play mechanism for its house edge, as the house is not in action with the banking players. In these cases of player-versus-player action, the house can only charge a rake (or commission) on the banking player’s wins for its edge. The non-banking players still play commission-free against the player banker, keeping the game commission-free as possible, still, for most players.

But player banking is strongly discouraged, as you’d be mixing commission-free rounds of play with commission-based “raked” rounds of play on a commission-free game. This defeats the intention and operation of the commission-free game. Player banking is nominally allowed, but “Best Practices” advisement and training recommends making “commission-free” also “banking-free,” except in very rare cases where the Shift Managers and TGD actually beg and plead on their knees to retain useless player banking. All we can do in these very rare cases is to accept the sale and make The Sign of the Cross upon these Gaming-Industry forsaken souls, to rake up another sale, and as Free Will Dictates.

Quote: Paigowdan
And more importantly, banking players cannot use the casino’s house edge mechanism against another player[/i

, as it makes no house edge for the house. Furthermore, no player should have a game-play advantage over any other player, when playing player-to-player.

But a player does have a game play advantage over the other players when they bank, they win all copy hands.

Quote: bw

But a player does have a game play advantage over the other players when they bank, they win all copy hands.

That is their limit of banker advantage when banking.

The player-banker does not get use use a particular casino-house advantage mechanism when he is playing "player-to-player" as a player, - against his other players when the house is not in action, aside from winning copies.

In a poker room on a split pot, no player can claim "I declare that I win the copies." In PGP, the banker does win copies, but gets no additional house dealer mechanism advantage, - being a player, even if banking.

For that matter, a banking player cannot charge the 5% commission house edge against any fellow player, now can he? ONLY the house dealer may take this house advantage mechanism.

The Push Mechanism is used by the house when the house dealer is active and in action against (versus) players, to recoup a house edge in order to offer a commission-free game.

However, a player may not use this against any other player during player-to-player action to his personal advantage, and where the casino house is uninvolved, again, aside from copies.

I prefer "regular" paigow - when people bank at my table it's one of two things typically.

1. The person who Banks is betting pretty huge and it's hard to begrudge them wanting to have a more fair game.

2. One of us will bank every so often if the cards are running bad. I know most people here are AP players and this doesn't affect the actual long run odds of winning blah blah blah but what the hell? We are casual gamblers having fun and we like to think that we are changing things up from time to time. I do it fairly often if things are running bad and I usually ask the people at the table if they care, typically people are cool with it. If they're not I usually won't do it because I'd rather just have a fun atmosphere unless I really dislike the people at the table in which case I won't even bother asking before banking.

All we can play in Kansas City is the game being mentioned here - I just don't care for it as much.

If a dealer cant figure out a 5% commission after a few hands of dealing they really should be looking for another line of work.

True.

I hear ya.

But we get the people who'd work minimum wage without being either mathematicians or courteous workers.

We get people who'd take the dealing job for absolute minimum wage because they'd have a ghost on the table dealing it otherwise.

NO grown up Adult, or Head of Household, takes a minimum-wage dealing job, unless he did not have it together, but barely enough to be hired for dealing. I admit it is not a good situation. Submit YOUR resume to the local casino and see if you'd consider that job.

Have you yourself ever dealt as a job for a casino?

A Game Designer as well as a Casino Operator or Game Distributor has got to make the Dealer position "as possible as possible," if that makes sense.

our house dumped all the regular pai gow for ez....we have huge asian action and I have not heard any complaints.

If I am alone at a table I'd prefer it to be regular. I bank every other hand at my local casino. And at the Wynn. But if I'm at a table with other players I'll go with Dan's game. My last time playing I had a pretty long session with ZERO queen high pai gows for the dealer, so even though it was just luck, it still felt good. The no commission part does make the game feel smoother.

Which casinos in Kansas city have pai Gow? Next time I go back I want to play.

Dan,
Calling it minimum wage is misleading. Many people want to do it because they like the job not because they are a screw up. Also it pays well(tips are great) Never making under 20 an hour, a 20 minute break every hour, free meals, and benefits makes it a great entry level job. It is strange to act like you shouldnt expect a high level of performance.

Plus Casinos do drug tests and background checks. They don't hire anybody.

Harrah's NKC has it. I like it, especially the sidebets (hopeless ploppy ) about as well as Fortune. The thing I like best is , new dealers and especially other new players are very slow and confused about commission, so the game moves much better.

I greatly prefer it to emperor pgp and dragon tables.

Argosy KC has/had (don't know if they still do) the Tiger 9 version of EZ PGP. 9 high in the two card hand, I believe, was an automatic push the table.

Quote: RoyalGeejoon

Which casinos in Kansas city have pai Gow? Next time I go back I want to play.

Dan,
Calling it minimum wage is misleading. Many people want to do it because they like the job not because they are a screw up. Also it pays well(tips are great) Never making under 20 an hour, a 20 minute break every hour, free meals, and benefits makes it a great entry level job. It is strange to act like you shouldnt expect a high level of performance.

Plus Casinos do drug tests and background checks. They don't hire anybody.

I didn't mean to be that disparaging, - but dealing is a hard job with an often very rough general public, absolute tons of petty politics, and that grossly underpays for it. Those who deal in the pit absolutely have to find something better or additional in life outside of the pit, be it family, a fantastic hobby, being an avid book reader, etc.

I was actually considering going back to dealing part-time as busy work and to help out a good place (yes, reliable dealers are hard to find), - but the wife is VERY against that, and had a conversation about it. Since we opened up the Day Spa and moved quite a bit away from gaming and gambling, the family view of pit work is now very bad; she'd rather I teach GED students at a charitable agency for free before returning to that.

Quote: RoyalGeejoon

Which casinos in Kansas city have pai Gow? Next time I go back I want to play.

Dan,
Calling it minimum wage is misleading. Many people want to do it because they like the job not because they are a screw up. Also it pays well(tips are great) Never making under 20 an hour, a 20 minute break every hour, free meals, and benefits makes it a great entry level job. It is strange to act like you shouldnt expect a high level of performance.

Plus Casinos do drug tests and background checks. They don't hire anybody.

Maybe dealers in LV make that. I am a dealer in the Midwest. We average 16 an hour after tips, the breaks are about half of what you state (20 off, 80 on), no free meals.

Dealing isn't difficult in and of itself, but it's not the cush job you describe.

On the original thread topic, EZ is easier to deal (no commission calculations) and offers an extra side bet (exciting for players and more edge for the house). I've played it and have recommended it to our gaming department.

Quote: RoyalGeejoon

Which casinos in Kansas city have pai Gow? Next time I go back I want to play.

Dan,
Calling it minimum wage is misleading. Many people want to do it because they like the job not because they are a screw up. Also it pays well(tips are great) Never making under 20 an hour, a 20 minute break every hour, free meals, and benefits makes it a great entry level job. It is strange to act like you shouldnt expect a high level of performance.

Plus Casinos do drug tests and background checks. They don't hire anybody.

Many casino's don't do drug tests.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Argosy KC has/had (don't know if they still do) the Tiger 9 version of EZ PGP. 9 high in the two card hand, I believe, was an automatic push the table.

Last time I was at Argosy they had EZ Paigow - same with Hollywood.

They have two tables at Harrah's although frequently only open one. That's where we play most of the time

They also have EZ PGP at Prarie Band which is about 15 miles north of Topeka. I guess that's why I get a little frustrated, they have the same type of game at every casino and I prefer the traditional game

I'm not disagreeing with you. What casinos don't drug test?

Quote: RoyalGeejoon

I'm not disagreeing with you. What casinos don't drug test?

Foxwoods and Mohegan sun, to name a couple.

I will get blasted by the game inventor since I know he hates player-banking. But, I like the player-banking part of PGP. I don't do it to show off or anything of that nature. I think it is fun and breaks up the monotony of the game. As for it slowing down the game, that is why I play games like PGP and the tiles. I like bank roll preservation games like that. That is part of the reason I've been playing more tiles than PGP since players accept banking more at tiles. That said, I don't feel that they're meant to be fast games like blackjack for instance. So minus player-banking, I won't play EZ Pai Gow. But, if you don't player-bank, then it is a convenient game since there is no commission. Although, with the queen high push I've always wondered the following: Does the player push even if they have a worse pai gow than the dealer like a Jack high for instance. Or would the player lose in that instance if they had a jack high pai gow and the dealer hand the queen high pai gow?

It's a push no matter what - I have gotten bailed out by the queen hi paigow a couple of times

Wulfgar -

If slow pace is your thing, try PGP at Circus Circus. Unless it's changed, they don't use a shuffle machine. After a hand shuffle, the dealer deals 49 cards into 7 piles and THEN delivers them to the seated players.

Several minutes between hands.

I don't know if anyone has asked this before and I've never seen an answer. But why are hands dealt to spots with no bets? This, along with it being dealt backwards (counterclockwise), is only found in PGP. Was the inventor polish? :-)

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Wulfgar -

If slow pace is your thing, try PGP at Circus Circus. Unless it's changed, they don't use a shuffle machine. After a hand shuffle, the dealer deals 49 cards into 7 piles and THEN delivers them to the seated players.

Several minutes between hands.

Fun times when the shuffler breaks down!

Quote: Wulfgar1224

I will get blasted by the game inventor since I know he hates player-banking. But, I like the player-banking part of PGP. I don't do it to show off or anything of that nature. I think it is fun and breaks up the monotony of the game.

I'm not going to bash you. I know some like player banking. Fine.
There was a need for commission-free, banking-free Pai Gow Poker, to be in line with other table game play in the pit and in spirit with other pit games. On the whole, banking wasn't working all that well for the non-banking players nor for the casino pit, even though some PGP players like banking.

Quote: Wulfgar1224

Although, with the queen high push I've always wondered the following: Does the player push even if they have a worse pai gow than the dealer like a Jack high for instance. Or would the player lose in that instance if they had a jack high pai gow and the dealer hand the queen high pai gow?

When the dealer has a Queen-high or push trigger hand, all hands push on the main bet, including the rare few hands that would have otherwise lost to the dealer.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I don't know if anyone has asked this before and I've never seen an answer. But why are hands dealt to spots with no bets? This, along with it being dealt backwards (counterclockwise), is only found in PGP. Was the inventor polish? :-)

No; the original game was a banking card room game (The Bell club) that started out with a rake or commission, as a card room type game requiring the "rake." This version designed by Fred Wolfe and Sam Torosian. It was also dealt to all positions, position-by-position, with a dice cup deciding the first position to start the deal.
Billy Walsh (Billy Woo) later came up with a casino version, and kept the "Asian mystic" features of counter-clockwise dealing, and with sporadic player banking as a legacy feature of its card room origins, and as a lure to get card room banking players to play the game in the pit. In 2010 the Commission-free EZ Pai Gow came to be, the launch casino being the Barona in San Diego. The Las Vegas Advisor had a Question of the day thread of the history of PGP (March 8th, 2016) that covers still stuff.

Quote: Paigowdan

No; the original game was a banking card room game (The Bell club) that started out with a rake or commission, as a card room type game requiring the "rake." This version designed by Fred Wolfe and Sam Torosian. It was also dealt to all positions, position-by-position, with a dice cup deciding the first position to start the deal.
Billy Walsh (Billy Woo) later came up with a casino version, and kept the "Asian mystic" features of counter-clockwise dealing, and with sporadic player banking as a legacy feature of its card room origins, and as a lure to get card room banking players to play the game in the pit. In 2010 the Commission-free EZ Pai Gow came to be, the launch casino being the Barona in San Diego. The Las Vegas Advisor had a Question of the day thread of the history of PGP (March 8th, 2016) that covers still stuff.

Well, time to create "EZ'R PGP" :-)

Quote: Paigowdan

No; the original game was a banking card room game (The Bell club) that started out with a rake or commission, as a card room type game requiring the "rake." This version designed by Fred Wolfe and Sam Torosian. It was also dealt to all positions, position-by-position, with a dice cup deciding the first position to start the deal.

Hammond Horseshoe still uses the dice cup, which I really like. Also they deal counter-clockwise.

Quote: jmills

Hammond Horseshoe still uses the dice cup, which I really like. Also they deal counter-clockwise.

There is a certain appreciation and comfort for some with the old school dice; I will say that any fears of the card-reading dealing machine knowing the starting playing position and hands are gone when the dice cup is used. I've heard some PGP players mention this concern of theirs.

Certainly has to save a few bucks a month without those RNG devices.

But I wonder if the dealer is a DI ?