y2d2
y2d2
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
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September 26th, 2016 at 10:33:57 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

I've always liked this house way. I've been saved many times by this rule. Most MGM properties in Vegas do this (except Luxor and Excalibur). Vegas CET properties split two little pairs when there is no ace present.


I've seen various different "corporation" house ways in California cardrooms. Some are very simple, and some are quite complex.

But right now, I can't imagine playing any other PGP besides 7up. I honestly don't even care about the math, the countless times that I got to play my hand unconventional which normally resulted in a loss or push turning into push or win seemed much more favorable than the dealer ace-high pai gow pushes that would normally have been wins.

Feels like I need to run into a lot of bad luck to not win. Being dealt hands like 6622987 is no longer an automatic losing hand when dealer has 2 split pairs. I see most players losing in the game as they're betting $15-$25 a hand and $5 bonus + $2 jackpot. Most of these players claim "pai gow is about the bonuses, that's how you make money" LOL. I think the logic is that most lower income working class people enjoy "sizable" wins ($1000+?) relative to buy in of $200-$300 and $15-$25 bets. And the only way to quickly do that in a 2-4 hour session is through a longshot bonus payout. I enjoy winning 4-figures, and is the goal every time I go out to play. Although if I'm running really hot i will stay a while to book 5-figure wins. I usually bet probably about $250 average per hand, although I've been known to play $500x2 or more. I don't often play the bonus but sometimes I'll play $5 FFS

The simple way I like to look at the dealer ace high push is... when the player is dealt ace-high, they most likely will lose and has only 1 way to play the hand. When the dealer has it, they won't lose. But the player gets to play every hand perfectly against a known hand.

Only when the dealer goes on an extended monster hand streak like JJ/AAxxx and large 3-pairs, full houses, straight with ace-face top, etc. do I find myself losing. Even with a measly $10k I'd feel invincible.
Last edited by: y2d2 on Sep 26, 2016
ams288
ams288
Joined: Sep 26, 2012
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September 26th, 2016 at 10:49:27 AM permalink
Quote: y2d2

I've seen various different "corporation" house ways in California cardrooms. Some are very simple, and some are quite complex.

But right now, I can't imagine playing any other PGP besides 7up. I honestly don't even care about the math, the countless times that I got to play my hand unconventional which normally resulted in a loss or push turning into push or win seemed much more favorable than the dealer ace-high pai gow pushes that would normally have been wins.



PGP is my go-to game. I would play this version in a heartbeat.

There are many times when you set a hand and it pushes, when it could have won if you had set it another way.

All those times I've had a full house, played it the correct way, and push when the dealer has a straight with no top.... So frustrating. That wouldn't happen with this game.
The geniuses who thought HRC was running a child sex ring out of the basement of a pizza shop just can't connect the dots on all this trump-Russia stuff....
y2d2
y2d2
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
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September 26th, 2016 at 10:52:55 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

PGP is my go-to game. I would play this version in a heartbeat.

There are many times when you set a hand and it pushes, when it could have won if you had set it another way.

All those times I've had a full house, played it the correct way, and push when the dealer has a straight with no top.... So frustrating. That wouldn't happen with this game.



Exactly. I've edited my previous post a little to add to that.

I'll never play any other PGP as long as this one is around
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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September 26th, 2016 at 11:10:48 AM permalink
There is beatable PGP out there. And l don't mean by banking as much as possible.
"And that's the bottom lineeeee, cuz Stone Cold said so!"
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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September 26th, 2016 at 11:15:49 AM permalink
Please let's not have this discussion.
The mountain is tall but the grass grows on top of the mountain.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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September 26th, 2016 at 11:31:13 AM permalink
Quote: y2d2

Exactly. I've edited my previous post a little to add to that.

I'll never play any other PGP as long as this one is around

Would you go back to standard PGP (or EZ or another commission-free variant) if this one is not around?

I share the prior concerns about game speed. If this game simply doesn't perform as well as its competition due to mechanics and player psychology, then the math doesn't matter and the game will be short-lived. If you and most other PGP players are going to play whatever version of PGP is available, and the other version generates more win/hour, that's the one that a savvy operator will spread. Especially since, even if the monthly win is identical, the lease fee peels off 2-3%.

It sounds like you're somewhat of a regular at Thunder Valley -- have you noticed that this new game is attracting many players you don't normally see at the other PGP tables? Or is it cannibalizing the action on the other games?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
y2d2
y2d2
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
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September 26th, 2016 at 11:57:07 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Would you go back to standard PGP (or EZ or another commission-free variant) if this one is not around?



It'd be unfortunate, but yes.

Quote: MathExtremist

It sounds like you're somewhat of a regular at Thunder Valley -- have you noticed that this new game is attracting many players you don't normally see at the other PGP tables? Or is it cannibalizing the action on the other games?



I'm actually brand new to TVC, but a regular to casinos & cardrooms and PGP. There is only one table of 7up, and maybe 4-5 of regular PGP. From what I've noticed over this weekend, 7up table was consistently busier than any given regular PGP table, but there were more tables and players spread out at times.

I really think allowing the players to view their hand as soon as dealt would improve game speed. Not sure if related to game security.
Last edited by: y2d2 on Sep 26, 2016
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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September 26th, 2016 at 12:05:37 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I also have a wife (28 years of marriage), 2 wonderful grown children and a wide array of interests, hobbies and friends. I have a rich, fulfilling life, and because of that I don't sit all alone in a tiny apartment heating up frozen dinners and plastering internet forums with thousands of posts defending the casino industry like you and MathExtremist do.

I can't even remember what I might have said to engender such enmity, but I don't recall interacting with you for many months so it must have been a doozy. Sorry about that. Also, perhaps don't hold onto your grudges quite so much. Perceived slights on the Internet from total strangers aren't really something to get worked up over. "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." --Eleanor Roosevelt.

Also, posting on a forum populated by game designers that "designing a game" is like "being sodomized" is maybe not the best way to establish respect. And then when you're called out on it -- by a game designer who has actually succeeded in the industry you're pooh-poohing -- you turn to suggesting that they must be living in a tiny apartment eating frozen dinners. That kind of juvenile insult is unbecoming of the sort of person your resume suggests you are.

Take a deep breath. If you're here to contribute -- and live up to your self-proclaimed status as one of the top 5-10 gaming math experts in the United States -- then by all means contribute. But if you're going to crap all over the hobby (and/or profession) of several of the members here, it shouldn't be surprising to you that your critique is met with some resistance.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
bitcoin
bitcoin
Joined: Sep 26, 2016
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September 26th, 2016 at 12:20:11 PM permalink
I have play regular paigow at thunder valley for so many years. Now I only play 7 up paigow, I love being able to see the dealer's cards first. There were so many times I'd have lost but I set it to a push And there were times I'd of push I set it to a win. Of course there were times I could of won and here comes the ace high paigow push, but that doesn't come too often. The other day I saw ace high paigow back to back, but there were times it won't come up in like 2 hrs.

I saw lots of regular paigow players do play 7 up paigow now. since there is only 1 table is hard to find a seat. I am hoping they have more table in near the future.

I talked to people that work there, the info that I got was the person that invent 7 up paigow is one of the shift manager that works at thunder valley. And that's why thunder valley is the first casino to offer 7 up paigow. But eventually he or she try to get it in other casinos.
y2d2
y2d2
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
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September 26th, 2016 at 1:51:29 PM permalink
Is risk of ruin a simple calculation of house edge, bet size, and bankroll? Or is there more to it than that?

It feels like to me, that I can much more consistently win 5 bets ($1k minus commission, my daily goal) per session with $200 bets and a 50-bet bankroll ($10k) in 7pgp more reliably than in any other PGP. Maybe I'm just a sucker easily fooled by gimmicks.

By the way, it doesn't bother me at all psychologically to push on dealer ace-high. And since I don't really play the bonuses, when the dealer opens ace-high, I don't even need to look at my hand; I can just pitch it in and move on to the next hand. (I look at it, anyways, just for kicks.)
Last edited by: y2d2 on Sep 26, 2016

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