Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 24th, 2016 at 2:13:47 PM permalink
Quote: SM777

Why do people think seeing the dealer's hand in Pai Gow is such an advantage?

The occurrences in which you would set your a hand a different way then you would without having seen the dealers hand, and win is so minimal.



Obtaining a saving push, or better yet a win over a push because the dealer's hand exposure lets you reset your hand does mean something, and is not that minimal.
However, I agree somewhat with SM777, and that the jury is out: what's taken away here is a surprise final win, and not knowing until the end of the round when the dealer normally shows his hand. Final round Game play anticipation is sacrificed here, true, but is greater at the game's front end. Here, you might know early on that your hand has no chance, no matter how well set (a bummer), - or that the dealer's exposure actually does give you a sharp-witted out to use early on.

Other Pai Gow Games (like Pai Gow Peek of the old Gaming Network Group) tried it with partial, half-measure Dealer exposure. This game offers full frontal nudity of the dealer's hand first, giving you the potential of "full carnival knowledge" for a save or win opportunity.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
mrsuit31
mrsuit31
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September 24th, 2016 at 2:47:02 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Everyone must realize that after the novelty wears off, the rule change makes this a NO DECISION game. If you are not able to set your hand properly after the dealer exposes his, then you do not belong in a casino. I know I would try it, and likely tire of it quickly.



I was thinking the NO DECISION issue as well. Additionally like Dan and sm777 said, there is absolutly no surprised ending anymore. It's essentially a paytable game with no dealer (of course with one), except this one only pays 1-1 now.
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beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
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September 24th, 2016 at 7:21:43 PM permalink
Quote: SM777

Why do people think seeing the dealer's hand in Pai Gow is such an advantage?

The occurrences in which you would set your a hand a different way then you would without having seen the dealers hand, and win is so minimal.



You probably have access to the numbers, but my perception of how often I would benefit ,as a person who plays regularly, is about every 6 or so hands on average. That has me drooling. I have to agree with Paradigm, though, that the double hit (A high push + 5%) is too much to pay. A high, because of the joker, occurs even more frequently than q high, which offsets the 5% already. I don't think the exposure is enough of a trade-off ev-wise. But I'd still play it.
"If the house lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game."
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 24th, 2016 at 7:54:57 PM permalink
Quote: SM777


Why do people think seeing the dealer's hand in Pai Gow is such an advantage?
The occurrences in which you would set your a hand a different way then you would without having seen the dealers hand, and win is so minimal.


and
Quote: beachbumbabs

You probably have access to the numbers, but my perception of how often I would benefit ,as a person who plays regularly, is about every 6 or so hands on average. That has me drooling. I have to agree with Paradigm, though, that the double hit (A high push + 5%) is too much to pay. A high, because of the joker, occurs even more frequently than q high, which offsets the 5% already. I don't think the exposure is enough of a trade-off ev-wise. But I'd still play it.



I would say that if this game is installed by the Thunder Valley Casino in Lincoln, CA, and is signed by the Shuffle Master Division of Scientific Games, then this game is well-vetted by fine experts in the gaming industry, and has got quite a shot at success. I would think that both Thunder Valley Casino, and the table games experts at SG see something worthy in this game, and that their business decisions are based on true merit and potential.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
gordonm888
gordonm888
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September 24th, 2016 at 9:26:10 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

and


I would say that if this game is installed by the Thunder Valley Casino in Lincoln, CA, and is signed by the Shuffle Master Division of Scientific Games, then this game is well-vetted by fine experts in the gaming industry, and has got quite a shot at success. I would think that both Thunder Valley Casino, and the table games experts at SG see something worthy in this game, and that their business decisions are based on true merit and potential.



Oh, how ridiculous. The track record is that the large majority of new games that are tried out like this are flops. People in any business who don't listen to their customers' comments are fools. Babs' comments about this game were reasonable. You should be listening, Dan, rather than taking the asinine position that the game must have "true merit" because the infallible demi-gods at Shufflemaster and Thunder Valley have given it a trial placement.

Maybe you should call yourself "TrueMeritDan" from now on. Bwaa-haaa-haa. ROFL at your post..
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 24th, 2016 at 9:49:05 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Oh, how ridiculous. The track record is that the large majority of new games that are tried out like this are flops.


Excuse me, Gordon, but exactly how many of your games made it to the casino floor in the first place, where they had a chance?
I think zero. For a game to have a good shot, you have to accomplish at least as what this game designer had done. Good for him, really.

And if anyone would know a worthy game it would be the executives of casino operators and the manufacturers.
How many games of yours got signed up and placed on the casino floor by these same casino executives and distributors?
Zero, it seems to me.

Quote: g888

People in any business who don't listen to their customers' comments are fools. Babs' comments about this game were reasonable.


I never said a bad thing about Babs, so excuse me for simply pointing out what this designer DID accomplish with his install.
I think for ANY game to have a shot from Jump Street - in other words, a rats chance in hell to make it for real - is to a) get a real casino to install it, and b) for a major distributor to sign it up and support it, and c) for the game to get serious action from gamblers in this live game casino environment.
And all this was accomplished by this Mr. Johnny Le to a "t." And also by Babs.

You should salute him, instead of question or complain about his success up through this point.


This is a very major accomplishment for ANY game designer.
For a zero-install wannabe like yourself in this department, you've got to give this game designer credit, instead of resentment, or perhaps jealousy.


Quote: g888

Maybe you should call yourself "TrueMeritDan" from now on. Bwaa-haaa-haa. ROFL at your post..


With that one, my suspicions are that you are drinking this evening. ROFV.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Sep 24, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
gordonm888
gordonm888
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September 24th, 2016 at 10:18:29 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Excuse me, Gordon, but exactly how many of your games made it to the casino floor in the first place, where they had a chance?
I think zero.

This is a very major accomplishment for ANY game designer.
For a zero-install wannabe like yourself in this department, you've got to give this game designer credit, instead of resentment, or perhaps jealousy.



With that one, my suspicions are that you are drinking this evening.



I have never had any interest in designing casino games, because I have always been handsomely paid to apply my intelligence to intellectually-fascinating work that matters to science, society and our country.

In my opinion, "designing casino games" is like "being sodomized" - it is risky, has a very low return-on-investment, is likely to involve unpleasantness in the process of doing it, and is something that I have been intelligent enough to avoid. And neither one should be done at the dinner table.

And I did not impugn your ability to evaluate a potential new casino game -just your bwaa-haa-haa statement that a game must have "true merit" because it has been given a field trial, when the track record is so contrary to that assertion.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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September 24th, 2016 at 10:33:32 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

...just your bwaa-haa-haa statement that a game must have "true merit" because it has been given a field trial, when the track record is so contrary to that assertion.


Agree. I've seen numerous SHFL games come and disappear faster than a fart in the wind.
"And that's the bottom lineeeee, cuz Stone Cold said so!"
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 24th, 2016 at 10:42:00 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888


I have never had any interest in designing casino games, because I have always been handsomely paid to apply my intelligence to intellectually-fascinating work that matters to science, society and our country.


I spent 20 years being a database administrator for a non-profit college, after five years as a systems programmer for an engineering firm. And two years in the U.S. Army as a field artillery mathematician back in the 1980's
I've done important work for society running computer systems for higher education in addition to serving this country. I think you come off in a very false and grandiose fashion stating that your work is somehow more important or divine in any way over other people's work, - to include the the people who work in the gaming industry, or support that industry by gambling.

Quote: g888

In my opinion, "designing casino games" is like "being sodomized" - it is risky, has a very low return-on-investment, is likely to involve unpleasantness in the process of doing it, and is something that I have been intelligent enough to avoid. And neither one should be done at the dinner table.


Personally, I doubt that you may be sharp enough to author a casino game that the gambling public would respect enough to patronize, I mean, with us being at a gambling forum here -- and with many of us having achieved that game design level of installs, including Paradigm (a CPA), MathExtremist (a Harvard graduate in computer science), Geoff Hall/Switch (who worked in education and has about 500 installs), Babs (who was an air traffic controller), Teliot (a PhD mathematician and the inventor of Three-card Blackjack that was played at the Monte Carlo on the Strip) - and Mike Shackleford, the very founder of this board. You bizarrely compare it to sodomy, which is absolutely absurd and despicable. (Easy on the bourbon....)

I mean, who [the hell] exactly are you, and why are you saying this crap at this board? I don't get this approach of yours.

Quote: g888

And I did not impugn your ability to evaluate a potential new casino game -just your bwaa-haa-haa statement that a game must have "true merit" because it has been given a field trial, when the track record is so contrary to that assertion.


No, I said it had better merit because it was at Thunder Valley Casino, that is was signed up by the largest gaming company in the world, and is supported by them also. This is a bit like a major film studio signing up a new screenwriter's screen play, or a major publishing signing up a new author's book.

It is a very respectable milestone for any designer or writer, and speaks of some merit or achievement that you discredit here. Why, exactly?
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Sep 24, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 24th, 2016 at 10:53:59 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Agree. I've seen numerous SHFL games come and disappear faster than a fart in the wind.



We've also seen Shuffle Master release many 1,000 install games and totally dominate the industry with Mississippi Stud (The original huge table game hit), Three Card Poker (1,500 installs and a regular casino staple like Blackjack or Pai Gow Poker), Ultimate Texas Hold 'em (1,000 installs), Dragon Bonus for baccarat (700 installs), Crazy-4-Poker, et al, with the new DJ Wild doing well. One can also say George Clooney or Mick Jagger also sometimes fart, and so cannot get a date, - when we'd kill to have their lives as men.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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