Wino
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May 12th, 2016 at 12:59:15 AM permalink
The Casinos keep saying that comps are calculated as average bet x house edge of game x length of play x % they want to comp you or what have you. But the Casinos always enter in your buy-in amount and what you cash out with in a session. My question is if you are a winning player and your lifetime sessions with a Casino end up net positive while playing rated, does that mean you are not comped until you become a net loser with that particular Casino? Is it cumulative net wins and losses or do they comp. based on the end of each session? Also do you know if they have stored on your Players' Card if you are a lifetime winner with them showing all session results for example? I have been playing unrated 95% of the time.
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PokerGrinder
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May 12th, 2016 at 1:09:18 AM permalink
Quote: Wino

The Casinos keep saying that comps are calculated as average bet x house edge of game x length of play x % they want to comp you or what have you. But the Casinos always enter in your buy-in amount and what you cash out with in a session. My question is if you are a winning player and your lifetime sessions with a Casino end up net positive while playing rated, does that mean you are not comped until you become a net loser with that particular Casino? Is it cumulative net wins and losses or do they comp. based on the end of each session? Also do you know if they have stored on your Players' Card if you are a lifetime winner with them showing all session results for example? I have been playing unrated 95% of the time.


I can't say for sure that they do but yes they do lol. My host (ex-host I guess) at the Venetian jokes how I am up on them lifetime (quite large) and I still get comps from them. Before anyone says what you're up lifetime? No I am not lol just have run like G-D at Venetian-Palazzo and lost many many other places. Casinos comp based on your theoretical loss not your actual loss.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
gary55
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May 12th, 2016 at 6:03:51 AM permalink
I have just totally guessing BUT that might be more likely to comp you if you are UP as they want THEIR money back
PokerGrinder
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May 12th, 2016 at 6:37:54 AM permalink
Quote: gary55

I have just totally guessing BUT that might be more likely to comp you if you are UP as they want THEIR money back


Casinos don't think like that. They base comps on whether they feel that you will playing enough (length and amount bet) to justify the free rooms or food or shows that they are giving you. If they comp you three nights and each day you make one $5000 (and lose) bet and that's all you play they won't think you are worth coming again. However if you stay three nights and buy in for $5000 each day and play 3 hours each day betting $100 a hand and lose all $5000 every day I guarantee you will be getting offers to come back and stay for free. In both situations you lose $15000 over three days but the casino wants you to make many bets cause it allows their house edge to take effect better than if you played 3 hands. I hope this makes sense, I just woke up and I am having a little trouble getting my thoughts into writing.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
TwoFeathersATL
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May 12th, 2016 at 6:52:24 AM permalink
Quote: PokerGrinder

Casinos don't think like that. They base comps on whether they feel that you will playing enough (length and amount bet) to justify the free rooms or food or shows that they are giving you. If they comp you three nights and each day you make one $5000 (and lose) bet and that's all you play they won't think you are worth coming again. However if you stay three nights and buy in for $5000 each day and play 3 hours each day betting $100 a hand and lose all $5000 every day I guarantee you will be getting offers to come back and stay for free. In both situations you lose $15000 over three days but the casino wants you to make many bets cause it allows their house edge to take effect better than if you played 3 hands. I hope this makes sense, I just woke up and I am having a little trouble getting my thoughts into writing.

I'm lying in the ditch on the side of the road, just got hit by the Metro Commuter Bus.
I'm broken and bleeding.

I regret never haven had the balls to sit down at the $100 table.

But then PG reminded me my comps were better the way I did it.................
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
Wizardofnothing
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May 12th, 2016 at 7:12:04 AM permalink
Most casinos have an And/or policy it's mostly based on theo however there is a quick loss system as well
Come in and get 5k a hand for 5 hands loss everyone - yoyr theo will be 100 dollars but I guarantee you can get at least 2500 in comps
Mgms policy is 10 percent of actual or 30 percent of theo as a reinvestment model
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Romes
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May 12th, 2016 at 7:52:25 AM permalink
As PG stated comps are based off your Theoretical Loss (TL).

TL = TotalWagered *HouseEdge = (AvgBet*NumHands)*(HouseEdge)

So yes, your time (which they use to calculate NumHands) and your average bet do count. So does the game and how well they think you play. If you're a "skilled" BJ player your HE might be .5%, or 1%. If you're a moron doing really bad things the pit might rate you playing at a 5% HE. This is how the donkey players often get the best comps... They're earning them 10x as fast as you based off their rating.

For comps, "usually" most places give back about 20% of your TL to you as comps. Thus, they're paying you back with your own theoretically lost money. Of course this could vary from casino to casino, or you could just get an on the spot comp, but this is how it works "in general."

Example
You play a .5% blackjack game for 5 hours, spreading $10-$200. The pit has your average bet marked at $80, and the casino already has average hand calculations per hour based on their dealers... Thus in your 5 hours the casino expects you received 70 hands per hour, for 350 hands in your session. Your Theoretical Loss is:

TL = (80*350)*(-.005) = -$140

From this, on average, you'll get 20% back for comps... Comp = (TL)*(.2) = (140)*(.2) = $28.

Play for 5 hours, get a buffet, or comp somewhere else, etc.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
TwoFeathersATL
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:03:03 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

As PG stated comps are based off your Theoretical Loss (TL).

TL = TotalWagered *HouseEdge = (AvgBet*NumHands)*(HouseEdge)

So yes, your time (which they use to calculate NumHands) and your average bet do count. So does the game and how well they think you play. If you're a "skilled" BJ player your HE might be .5%, or 1%. If you're a moron doing really bad things the pit might rate you playing at a 5% HE. This is how the donkey players often get the best comps..

My mileage has varied, considerably.
I haven't tried a donkey suit yet ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
mcallister3200
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:12:50 AM permalink
I know if casinos that rate table games offers based on a combination of actual loss, theo/average bet, and racial demographic, with max average loss taken into account at 3-5k. Comparing offers between players at these properties it is extremely obvious that actual loss and race or age demographics are both taken into account and weighted heavily.
Wizardofnothing
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:14:04 AM permalink
What????????????? Race wtf are you talking about?
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Romes
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:15:19 AM permalink
When comparing offers it would have to be assumed that everyone plays EQUALLY skillful / the same.

Like I said earlier, if you have someone do a bone head play in front of the PB, he might rate them at a house edge of 5% on a BJ game. If you play perfect basic strategy he might rate you at .5% or 1%... Thus they're going to earn comps 5x-10x faster/better than you.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
mcallister3200
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:15:53 AM permalink
Delete
mcallister3200
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:16:52 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

When comparing offers it would have to be assumed that everyone plays EQUALLY skillful / the same.

Like I said earlier, if you have someone do a bone head play in front of the PB, he might rate them at a house edge of 5% on a BJ game. If you play perfect basic strategy he might rate you at .5% or 1%... Thus they're going to earn comps 5x-10x faster/better than you.



Both players in the case I'm comparing use the same strategy.
Romes
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:23:26 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Both players in the case I'm comparing use the same strategy.

Right, but what you might be missing is this... Let's say you 3 are all on a team using the EXACT same strategy... However 1 player has a deviation that "looks" like a bone head play (or you get a PB that doesn't understand deviations and just thinks it's really a stupid play). Say one of your guys splits 10's when he should, but the PB thinks that's really idiotic. Well, he's going to rate him as a poor player with a higher house edge than you, resulting in better comps/etc for that player. There's tons and tons of other examples this could follow. It all comes down to when the PB comes to check your table what does he see and what does he rate you as a result. You might be hitting A-7 vs 10 when he walks over thus he rates you as a good player, where as someone playing perfect strategy hits 13v3 in a negative count and the PB thinks he's an idiot and rates him as such.

There's a lot of variables to consider, so jumping straight in to race/etc isn't exactly correct. I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, just that you can't really confirm you're right either =/.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
mcallister3200
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:27:25 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

What????????????? Race wtf are you talking about?



Don't believe it if you don't want but in this case it is obvious.
mcallister3200
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:29:56 AM permalink
Not jumping straight to anything. Please don't patronize me by talking down to me like I'm 4.
Romes
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:36:17 AM permalink
That was not my intent in the slightest... I was simply attempting to point out there's a lot of conditions that could of led to a particular rating... yes race being one potentially, but in the grand scheme it's nearly impossible to determine that was the sole reason for a rating. PB's can click their buttons on the screen for whatever reasons they see fit. Maybe you're dressed sloppy and they think you're a bad player because of that. Maybe you bought in for all 10's and 20's and they think you're a broke bad player because of that... Maybe you made a deviation and that's why... Maybe they LIKE YOU and want you to earn better comps so they put you in as a bad player. Maybe it IS race and that's why. You can't ever know without confirming it with the PB giving the rating. Jumping straight to the race card is ignoring all of these other possibilities.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
TwoFeathersATL
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:38:59 AM permalink
There are so many more people that read and write on this list that have so much more insight than I do with my limited experience.

However

All the explanations I have read here of the computations that result in MY comps are wrong, or overly simplistic, or I occasionally really pissed off someone I shouldn't have ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
TheGrimReaper13
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May 12th, 2016 at 8:48:40 AM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

... All the explanations I have read here of the computations that result in MY comps are wrong, or overly simplistic, or I occasionally really pissed off someone I shouldn't have ;-)

Do casinos come in here? No. Too busy with winning, to try to figure out even their own actions.
So much bullshit; so little time!
djatc
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May 14th, 2016 at 9:28:58 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Don't believe it if you don't want but in this case it is obvious.



I think they would say it's based on everything but race.... But come on let's be real they do take into account if the player is a certain race or likelihood to be an addict. Whether or not they are able to sustain their addiction is another factor.
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Zcore13
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May 14th, 2016 at 9:56:44 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Don't believe it if you don't want but in this case it is obvious.



I guess it's possible there could be a racist Pit Boss somewhere, that might do that, but other than that, your scenario of race being any factor in rating or comps is false.

There is also no casino that I know of or have heard of in my almost 10 years in the business that rates based on actual loss. You could get some discretionary comps if you are running way worse than what the theo says you should be losing, but normal everyday comps are based on theo only.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
mcallister3200
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May 14th, 2016 at 10:19:47 PM permalink
Not in multiple casinos in a particular city with several casinos. Definitely. The factors HAVE been isolated
darkoz
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May 14th, 2016 at 10:20:26 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I guess it's possible there could be a racist Pit Boss somewhere, that might do that, but other than that, your scenario of race being any factor in rating or comps is false.

There is also no casino that I know of or have heard of in my almost 10 years in the business that rates based on actual loss. You could get some discretionary comps if you are running way worse than what the theo says you should be losing, but normal everyday comps are based on theo only.

ZCore13



Absolutely agree with you on race. Don't know any casinos that rate with that in mind.

As to actual losses or wins, I have come across casinos that will comp significantly better one way or the other. (I have multi-carded at those casinos and used record keeping to compare results so I'm not guessing. I've seen it.)

EDIT: In particular, I know of at least three. Two of them reward based on heavy actual losses while one rewards based on heavy actual wins. However, most casinos do seem to rate solely on theo.
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RogerKint
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May 14th, 2016 at 10:27:13 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Not in multiple casinos in a particular city with several casinos. Definitely. The factors HAVE been isolated



Why can't white guys just catch a break in this country for once?
100% risk of ruin
mcallister3200
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May 14th, 2016 at 10:44:07 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

Why can't white guys just catch a break in this country for once?



I meant for the average loss being a factor, that's been isolated and is 100% correct.

Race strong evidence, at a limited number of casinos, is tied into combination with age/zip code demographic.
AxelWolf
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May 14th, 2016 at 11:33:09 PM permalink
Asians get more crap.

White male age 35 with 1mill credit line gets RFB

Asian male age 35 with 1mill credit line gets RFBHB

HB=Hookers n blow
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
soxfan
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May 15th, 2016 at 2:57:07 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

I know if casinos that rate table games offers based on a combination of actual loss, theo/average bet, and racial demographic, with max average loss taken into account at 3-5k. Comparing offers between players at these properties it is extremely obvious that actual loss and race or age demographics are both taken into account and weighted heavily.



Amazing, time for the Guinness and cashew, hey hey.
" Life is a well of joy; but where the rabble drinks too, all wells are poisoned!" Nietzsche
Romes
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May 16th, 2016 at 7:54:23 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Asians get more crap.

White male age 35 with 1mill credit line gets RFB

Asian male age 35 with 1mill credit line gets RFBHB

HB=Hookers n blow

Sigh, then how much of a credit line do I need as a white male to get RFBHB?
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Wizardofnothing
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May 16th, 2016 at 7:58:44 AM permalink
Mcallister with all due respect you couldn't be further off base ,

I have seen first hand offer matrices and race is not one of the factors listed in the search spread
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ahiromu
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May 16th, 2016 at 8:29:17 AM permalink
I get "Asian offers" that tend to be on par, or ever so slightly more than, what I am offered otherwise. I'm Japanese and these things come to me in Viet and Mandarin (along with English of course)... Kind of funny.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
mcallister3200
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May 16th, 2016 at 8:30:45 AM permalink
Certainly you are right for most places. You don't know everything there is to know about every place (please don't debate this, I know you have a fantastic ego but be real), no one does, so to state with absolute certainty you do....
Wizardofnothing
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May 16th, 2016 at 8:32:20 AM permalink
Yes there is a separate ASIAN marketing department, the hosts actually are able to be much more aggressive as well compared to normal hosts- but I 1000000 percent guarantee there is no black or Jewish marketing team. Besides that- even though you may be tagged to Asian marketing you are not rated any higher at the games then if I say right next to you
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Wizardofnothing
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May 16th, 2016 at 8:34:54 AM permalink
Not claiming to know everything but anyone that is worth anything in the casino world would surely tell you that you are out of line, this is almost along the lines of the shuffle master machines are rigged

Could this happen? Remote possibility does it? Probably not, it may even fall under discrimination
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mcallister3200
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May 16th, 2016 at 8:37:24 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Yes there is a separate ASIAN marketing department, the hosts actually are able to be much more aggressive as well compared to normal hosts



How do you not consider this to be conflicting with your other statements in this thread unless you are misunderstanding or I didn't say correctly what I meant?
SanchoPanza
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May 16th, 2016 at 9:26:20 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Not claiming to know everything but anyone that is worth anything in the casino world would surely tell you that you are out of line, this is almost along the lines of the shuffle master machines are rigged

Could this happen? Remote possibility does it? Probably not, it may even fall under discrimination

If you think that offers are not issued on the basis of factors like ZIP Codes, you are are sadly mistaken. And ZIP Codes, as any marketer should know, are extraordinarily useful in targeting socioeconomic demographics. I see evidence of that regularly among friends who live across quite a few ZIP Codes in a given casino's marketing area, even to the extent that non-players receive far better offers than I do.
Wizardofnothing
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May 16th, 2016 at 9:29:02 AM permalink
Zip code marketing is 10000 percent accurate and inactive- unless I understood wrong he was saying he is rated differently based on race and that just isn't accurate - marketing is completely different then what the pit boss enters rating wise
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whodat
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May 16th, 2016 at 9:57:29 AM permalink
What's an "Asian offer?"
Wizardofnothing
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May 16th, 2016 at 10:02:47 AM permalink
If you play Asian games baccarat pai gow tiles mini bac- you sometimes get tagged to the Asian marketing department and they are slightly more agressive offer wise
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mcallister3200
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May 16th, 2016 at 10:03:04 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Zip code marketing is 10000 percent accurate and inactive- unless I understood wrong he was saying he is rated differently based on race and that just isn't accurate - marketing is completely different then what the pit boss enters rating wise



Ok, think we're just misunderstanding each others position. Never meant to say you got rated differently based on race (seperate from marketing as you say), but can be a factor in marketing along with age/zip code leading to different offers for comparable play at some properties (true based on even having a seperate asian marketing department, extent of this effect can be minimal I suppose)
whodat
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May 16th, 2016 at 10:07:20 AM permalink
I play some in the Lake Charles area and there is a strong market for Asians. The Asians that I see play there mainly play at the Baccarat tables. The casinos have Asian themes and concerts all the time there. In the past I have observed "shrimpers" who just came back from a month or two out at sea and just received their salary. They would blow that in one eveningin exchange for a comped room and a nice dinner.
Wizardofnothing
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May 16th, 2016 at 10:13:11 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Ok, think we're just misunderstanding each others position. Never meant to say you got rated differently based on race (seperate from marketing as you say), but can be a factor in marketing along with age/zip code leading to different offers for comparable play at some properties (true based on even having a seperate asian marketing department, extent of this effect can be minimal I suppose)




Ok then I understand, casino market different for zip code and frequency of visits and. Inactivity and game adt.
My point was if you took a black guy and a white guy and they live next door to each other and are the same age(in order to exclude senior only promos) and they play same amount same game (results usually do not matter) then they should get the same offers relatively speaking as long as it's not one persons birthday month and they get an extra bonus or soemthing
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ahiromu
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May 16th, 2016 at 10:55:21 AM permalink
My Asian offers are very similar to other mail offers... Except they tend to be more cash (casino play) based. Also, they come in eastern Asian writing and color schemes. These are from CET and I've only received 3-4. My main game is craps, but I put in a good amount of time at the PGP tables.

Once again, all of this is funny because I'm fourth generation and the only Japanese I speak is from Judo. There is no way a pit or supervisor has checked a box saying I'm culturally Asian. I've been profiled simply by my last name (plus a few hours of PGP each trip).
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
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