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gordonm888
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gordonm888 
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May 7th, 2016 at 6:26:18 PM permalink
The Tribal Gaming Commission is the part time commission that I already mentioned - 3 guys making $9K to $12K per year and meeting 4 times per year. And I already said it has the role of approving/certifying equipment. But there are no standards.

The original version of this commission was created in 1994, but gradually it went out of existence because it never met. For over a decade there was literally no regulatory body over this casino. The Tribal Gaming Commission was formed again in 2011. Its a little hard to tell if it actually does anything now in 2016. It doesn't even have a website and doesn't seem to be on the org chart for NC State Government.

Quote: MathExtremist




I get the sense that you're trying to demonstrate that the Cherokee casino is crooked. Why exactly is that?



Your sense is wrong. I feel an obligation as the original poster on this thread and I am trying to honestly engage what other people are posting. I am working much harder on this topic than I really care to because I am trying to keep a high level of intelligent dialogue and meaningful analysis. I'm sorry if you don't like me asking questions and and doing research that challenges your assumptions.

To turn it around, I get the sense that you are trying to defend a casino that you have never been to and that you know absolutely nothing about on a first hand basis. Why exactly is that?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
mrsuit31
mrsuit31
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May 7th, 2016 at 6:44:46 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

But that is it -that is the only regulatory body created in the pact. Three political appointees who meet 4 times per year.



I only read the definitions in the compact, as I'm not reading all 28 pages, and that alone made it pretty clear that there are two commissions. Section 3(C)-the certification commission and (G)-the tribal gaming commission. I would assume the tribal gaming commission, the "agency responsible for effective regulation of all gaming activities", is the one who constantly monitors everything, while new "video game" submissions are certified by the quarterly meeting certification commission.

I think you may be misreading the roles of both these agencies... Again I haven't read the whole compact.

Edit: Additionally, the section 15(D)(3) that mathextremist referenced expressly states that it is the tribal gaming commission, not the certification commission, who approves this type of equipment (e.g. Shufflers). They are overseeing gaming year round and not on a quarterly basis.

You stated earlier that the tribal gaming commission is a part time commission and that is entirely incorrect. And again they, the certification commission, only seemingly deal with certifying new video game submissions and not approval of gaming equipment.

Quote: gordonm888

The Tribal Gaming Commission is the part time commission that I already mentioned - 3 guys making $9K to $12K per year and meeting 4 times per year. And I already said it has the role of approving/certifying equipment. But there are no standards.

Last edited by: mrsuit31 on May 7, 2016
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MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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May 7th, 2016 at 6:50:36 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I feel an obligation as the original poster on this thread and I am trying to honestly engage what other people are posting. I am working much harder on this topic than I really care to because I am trying to keep a high level of intelligent dialogue and meaningful analysis. I'm sorry if you don't like me asking questions and and doing research that challenges your assumptions.

Seriously? You started a thread based on an anonymous and unverifiable accusation, buttressing your position with a cursory search on the Internet, and you're calling that "intelligent dialogue"?

Intelligence would dictate doing more work than that. How about doing some meaningful analysis into your accusations, rather than demonstrating your ability to jump to baseless conclusions after a few hours of Google research? Write letters to regulators asking them how their process works. Call the casino. Call the vendor. Actually ask the questions, don't just toss out unfounded accusations, do a bit of Googling, then say "Okay. Big news."

Right now, your accusation has less legitimacy than the cold fusion paper. Back it up with something concrete. Prove you're not a crank.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
gordonm888
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gordonm888 
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:28:40 PM permalink
I agree that I confused the issue by saying these were the same commission, but I disagree on the roles of the two commissions..

The Tribal Gaming Commission regulates the finances, monetary transactions, personnel hiring, and other items in Section 5 of the Pact. Regulation of these aspects is granted to the Indian Tribe in the pact.

The Section 6 activities -regulation of gaming devices - are not assigned to the Indian Tribe. Regulation of Gaming Devices is placed in the hands of the Certification Commission - the joint State/Tribe-appointed appointed commission that I accurately described in my previous post. It has 3 part time members that are paid $9 to 12K per year and is required to meet at least quarterly. It actually lapsed in the late 1990s and didn't meet or effectively exist for a period of longer than 10 years. IMO, this organization in no way compares to the Nevada Gaming Commission or the New Jersey Gaming Commission.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
mrsuit31
mrsuit31
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:42:35 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I agree that I confused the issue by saying these were the same commission, but I disagree on the roles of the two commissions..

The Tribal Gaming Commission regulates the finances, monetary transactions, personnel hiring, and other items in Section 5 of the Pact. Regulation of these aspects is granted to the Indian Tribe in the pact.

The Section 6 activities -regulation of gaming devices - are not assigned to the Indian Tribe. Regulation of Gaming Devices is placed in the hands of the Certification Commission - the joint State/Tribe-appointed appointed commission that I accurately described in my previous post. It has 3 part time members that are paid $9 to 12K per year and is required to meet at least quarterly. It actually lapsed in the late 1990s and didn't meet or effectively exist for a period of longer than 10 years. IMO, this organization in no way compares to the Nevada Gaming Commission or the New Jersey Gaming Commission.



Section 6(D)(3) "all equipment utilized in the conduct of live table gaming must receive approval and certification from the Tribal Gaming Commission prior to being placed in operation".

I'm sorry, what am I misreading exactly?
Last edited by: mrsuit31 on May 7, 2016
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Ibeatyouraces
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:48:21 PM permalink
If anyone thinks that casinos don't cheat because they're "regulated" by some type of government entity, you're sadly mistake. Most corruption in this country is IN government.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
gordonm888
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gordonm888 
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May 7th, 2016 at 8:00:09 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Seriously? You started a thread based on an anonymous and unverifiable accusation, buttressing your position with a cursory search on the Internet, and you're calling that "intelligent dialogue"?

Intelligence would dictate doing more work than that. How about doing some meaningful analysis into your accusations, rather than demonstrating your ability to jump to baseless conclusions after a few hours of Google research? Write letters to regulators asking them how their process works. Call the casino. Call the vendor. Actually ask the questions, don't just toss out unfounded accusations, do a bit of Googling, then say "Okay. Big news."



I heard a claim by someone and posted it on a WOV forum where I expected that people would have the expertise to immediately refer me to relevant websites and advise me as to what to think of it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think I've been upfront about acknowledging the value of what people have told me and have said that I've been persuaded that its unlikely that the story about the vendor could be true.

Quote:

Right now, your accusation has less legitimacy than the cold fusion paper. Back it up with something concrete. Prove you're not a crank.



Really Mathextremist? Name-calling? The first refuge of the over-matched? Is that all you've got?

Let me tell you something about myself. Since 2010, I have served as Senior Scientist in the Dept of Energy's Office of Intelligence and as Chief Technology Officer of Oak Ridge National Laboratory. I have served as a member of a State Dept delegation to Russia on nuclear security issues, and received a commendation from NASA for my support to their Cassini mission to the moons of Saturn. I have raised and married off two wonderful daughters, celebrated a 25th wedding anniversary, traveled extensively and developed a rich network of friends and relationships.

Now, let me tell you something about you, Mathextremist. Since 2010, you have posted on the WOV website 5,278 times. LOL, five thousand two hundred and seventy eight times.

So, excuse me if I don't place a lot of weight on your advice because I'm really not impressed.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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May 7th, 2016 at 9:04:18 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I heard a claim by someone and posted it on a WOV forum where I expected that people would have the expertise to immediately refer me to relevant websites and advise me as to what to think of it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think I've been upfront about acknowledging the value of what people have told me and have said that I've been persuaded that its unlikely that the story about the vendor could be true.

Let me tell you something about myself. Since 2010, I have served as Senior Scientist in the Dept of Energy's Office of Intelligence and as Chief Technology Officer of Oak Ridge National Laboratory. I have served as a member of a State Dept delegation to Russia on nuclear security issues, and received a commendation from NASA for my support to their Cassini mission to the moons of Saturn.

That's an impressive CV, but it's also highly incongruent with someone who would even give such a crank accusation a second thought. You're a senior nuclear scientist with an advanced degree and you don't know what to think of a claim like "Shufflers have Cheat Mode?" It's reasonable to demand a greater degree of critical thinking from the people in charge of something as important as ORNL. It's also reasonable to expect federal employees not to publicly accuse sovereign nations like the Cherokee of widespread fraud, especially when there is absolutely no evidence to support that accusation.

Please demonstrate the level of intellectual rigor that someone in your position should display, rather than the level of rigor we've come to expect from people who believe they can control the dice. For starters, if you have an advanced science degree you already know how to statistically test for bias in hand outcomes. If you haven't already done that, why not?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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May 7th, 2016 at 9:07:45 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

If anyone thinks that casinos don't cheat because they're "regulated" by some type of government entity, you're sadly mistake. Most corruption in this country is IN government.

That's not equivalent to actually having evidence that casinos are cheating. The same logic could be used to claim, with equal validity, that every shuffling machine in Nevada is gaffed too. Government is government, right?

Don't fall prey to sloppy reasoning just because it's fun to disparage the government. If you make a claim like "the Cherokee Nation is using gaffed shufflers," it's not valid to point to "all governments are corrupt" as evidence of that claim.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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May 7th, 2016 at 9:10:16 PM permalink
The whole thread seems like he got a lot of people to waste there time for some bad beat or bad run that he had
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either

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