Is UTH really beatable ?

Is UTH really beatable at all ?
Everything I know about odds says you need edge to win and the House Always Has Edge in UTH.
Am I wrong ?

Also I dont know WHY it says to Raise the flop if your hold cards are 4-3 and the flop is 3-9-Q rainbow.
The Same EXACT set up has you as an Underdog vs one player in Heads Up Traditional Texas Hold Em.
In Fact you would be an underdog vs one player in Tradtional Hold em With any bottom pair vs two over cards.

Maybe The Wiz
can answer ?

Beatable in the traditional sense? No. Are there ways to gain an edge? Yes. Those you're going to have to search for on your own though.

Quote: gary55

Is UTH really beatable at all ?
Everything I know about odds says you need edge to win and the House Always Has Edge in UTH.
Am I wrong ?

Also I dont know WHY it says to Raise the flop if your hold cards are 4-3 and the flop is 3-9-Q rainbow.
The Same EXACT set up has you as an Underdog vs one player in Heads Up Traditional Texas Hold Em.
In Fact you would be an underdog vs one player in Tradtional Hold em With any bottom pair vs two over cards.

Maybe The Wiz
can answer ?

That's a close one. It's almost better to check that hand. (In fact, if the board was something like 2-3-4 rainbow, and you hold 7-3 offsuit, you should check.)

But in this you also have to factor in the dealer not qualifying (not hitting a pair), in which case you'd get your ante bet returned (or paid, sometimes, if you have a sloppy dealer). So the range of outcomes and the equity you get by calling is slightly different than in regular heads up HE.

And no, UTH definitely not beatable straight up but you can play pretty damn close to even with the house. In this way it's better than most casino games. And if you DO find something to give you an edge, it's easier to get over the hump, as it were.

Quote: gary55

Is UTH really beatable at all ?
Everything I know about odds says you need edge to win and the House Always Has Edge in UTH.
Am I wrong ?

Also I dont know WHY it says to Raise the flop if your hold cards are 4-3 and the flop is 3-9-Q rainbow.
The Same EXACT set up has you as an Underdog vs one player in Heads Up Traditional Texas Hold Em.
In Fact you would be an underdog vs one player in Tradtional Hold em With any bottom pair vs two over cards.

Maybe The Wiz
can answer ?

If the Wiz doesn't mind, I think I can handle this one =P.

Ever casino game has a built in house edge based on the rules/payouts to give the house an advantage. Thus, if you play ANY game in a casino you WILL lose money in the long run. From night to night you may have the mathematical term "variance" which in plain english means "luck." The house edge is generally small on most of the games, but amount to a lot over time. Thus, if you played UTH for 2 hours tonight with a $10-$10 (ante/blind) bet, you could expect to lose about $45 (assuming you're playing basic strategy - which we'll get to in a second). While you're projected to lose $45, you could get lucky and happen to win a bunch of hands in a row and win money. No one would go to the casino if no one EVER won (or would they)... Think of it in terms of flipping a coin. In 10 flips you can "expect" 5 heads and 5 tails, however we know in reality we might see 6 and 4, or 7 and 3 because this is a small sampling side. However if we flipped the coin 10,000,000 times then we would expect the ratio of heads/tails to be very very close to a 50/50 (as expected).

Now, on to basic strategy... The basic strategy for this game developed by the Wiz was run by simulations running millions and millions of hands. When you flop a pair, you should bet. The lower pair you flop, the more "close" of a play it is, of course... If you flop top pair you're almost always good, where as bottom pair you're "probably" okay but there's a lot more out there that can beat you. However, it was determined that ANY flopped pair is better than a random hand, which is what the dealer has. We don't know the dealers cards, so they could be 7-2, or AA... ON AVERAGE you'll win more times you make that bet than lose and that's why it's considered basic strategy.

When you review the hand on "traditional" texas hold'em, what hand are you using for the dealer? You can't assume the dealer has a pair of queens or 9's on that flop, so why wouldn't your pair be the favorite? I'm quite familiar with cardplayer.com's texas hold'em calculator, where you can plug in 2 hands and see the odds, but what are you referring to when you say 3's are a "dog" in traditional hold'em? If your'e simply referring to being at a table then you're comparing apples to oranges. When the flop comes out the other players have already "filtered" their hands by folding or raising. When the dealer has 7-2 off, they ALWAYS play... where as at a traditional poker table players will FOLD this hand, making the "average" hand on the flop of higher value because they put some thought in to their hands. The dealer hand does not do this... No thought at all just play every hand. This is going to LOWER the average flop hand to the point that ANY pair should bet.

NO casino game is beatable unless you find a way to either study or change the house edge. Card counting for example... In blackjack the house edge constantly changes from player to dealer pending the number of big cards left. What card counting does is NOT change the house edge, but it allows the player a way to tell who's favor it currently is... Thus when the player is in the favor we bet more, and that's how that game is beat (in a nutshell). There is a way to beat every single game in the casino, but no one on here is going to share those details =). I'd invite you to search old threads and study on how to beat blackjack, slots, VP, and other table games.

What is good about UTH for the non-AP player is that

1) It is fun.
2) Basic strategy is not too hard to remember, even if you only play a couple times a year.
3) It plays pretty close to expected; although you will get the clumping of good hands and bad hands, generally you will either win at a slow rate or lose at a slightly quicker rate. You can sit pretty long, as long as you have a decent bank to start, like $300 for $10 stakes.

Quote: Romes

Every casino game has a built in house edge based on the rules/payouts to give the house an advantage. .

Err..umm... NOT TRUE.

Perhaps you corrected yourself somewhere in that chapter but I just browsed it.


PS. I correct and added a y to your first word.

It's a bad day for you when Axel is helping correct writing mistakes as well.

Quote: AxelWolf

It's a bad day for you when Axel is helping correct writing mistakes as well.

That is funny.

Quote: AxelWolf

Err..umm... NOT TRUE.

Perhaps you corrected yourself somewhere in that chapter but I just browsed it.


PS. I correct and added a y to your first word.

It's a bad day for you when Axel is helping correct writing mistakes as well.

If your'e gonna nickel and dime me on things that are full pay (like VP) or machine glitches, or promo's, you're over extending the OP in this thread... I write to the reader Axel, which is why this post contains no big words ;).

Quote: gary55

Also I dont know WHY it says to Raise the flop if your hold cards are 4-3 and the flop is 3-9-Q rainbow.
The Same EXACT set up has you as an Underdog vs one player in Heads Up Traditional Texas Hold Em.
In Fact you would be an underdog vs one player in Tradtional Hold em With any bottom pair vs two over cards.

CardPlayer's hand calculator shows 43 vs AK on a board of 3-9-Q to be a 75/25 favorite. Barring a runner-runner straight (or Q-9) AK only has 6 outs with 2 cards to come.

Quote: Joeman

CardPlayer's hand calculator shows 43 vs AK on a board of 3-9-Q to be a 75/25 favorite. Barring a runner-runner straight (or Q-9) AK only has 6 outs with 2 cards to come.

Right, now what if the dealer has 4-2, and has no out other than runner runner straight/chop/etc? You're an even larger favorite... What about when the dealer has A-Q, you're a big dog... What about.... This is exactly what these simulations do. They play these hands out millions and millions of times in order to find out "on average" does a pair of 3's on this flop win more than lose? The answer is yes, thus it's a raise.

Quote: Mosca

What is good about UTH for the non-AP player is that

1) It is fun.
2) Basic strategy is not too hard to remember, even if you only play a couple times a year.
3) It plays pretty close to expected; although you will get the clumping of good hands and bad hands, generally you will either win at a slow rate or lose at a slightly quicker rate. You can sit pretty long, as long as you have a decent bank to start, like $300 for $10 stakes.

I suspect that 'clumping' is not an approved mathematical expression. I got a link here somewhere, durn, I can't find it.
Clumping is an interesting word, brings to mind.........nevermind.
Clumping will prolly not help you beat the house, exactly who's what's are clumped anyway?
Even of you are born with bad hands, and you always seem to get dealt bad hands, maybe if you clump all that together, maybe, just maybe you wont lose your rent money......maybe....maybe in clumps.....;-)

Quote: Romes

Quote: Joeman

CardPlayer's hand calculator shows 43 vs AK on a board of 3-9-Q to be a 75/25 favorite. Barring a runner-runner straight (or Q-9) AK only has 6 outs with 2 cards to come.

Right, now what if the dealer has 4-2, and has no out other than runner runner straight/chop/etc? You're an even larger favorite... What about when the dealer has A-Q, you're a big dog... What about.... This is exactly what these simulations do. They play these hands out millions and millions of times in order to find out "on average" does a pair of 3's on this flop win more than lose? The answer is yes, thus it's a raise.

My Bad I was looking at pot equity rather then the number i should have been looking at.
Thanks Now I get it.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I suspect that 'clumping' is not an approved mathematical expression. I got a link here somewhere, durn, I can't find it.
Clumping is an interesting word, brings to mind.........nevermind.
Clumping will prolly not help you beat the house, exactly who's what's are clumped anyway?
Even of you are born with bad hands, and you always seem to get dealt bad hands, maybe if you clump all that together, maybe, just maybe you wont lose your rent money......maybe....maybe in clumps.....;-)

I was looking for a "like" button...

You know, how randomness can stick you with 19 "yo"s in a row. Or fewer, in many cases.

For answering questions on poker hand equity, a good resource is propokertools.com. If you are holding 3h4s against a random hand with a board of 3c9hQd you are about a 55% favorite. You are always playing vs. a random hand in this game so you will be a favorite with even weaker hands then you would play in a heads-up game of real poker.

You can save a calculation in a link like this.

4-3 pocket with 3-9-Q flop = check ev -0.37 raise ev -0.27 - - - that's why you raise 2x on this hand

I'll add one for the non-AP players:

4) It is even more fun if you play Trips and hit one or more bonus hands before your bankroll is (more likely) cleaned out.

I admit there is nothing like grinding it out and hitting a full house or quads w Trips when your stack is getting low.

Quote: gary55

Also I dont know WHY it says to Raise the flop if your hold cards are 4-3 and the flop is 3-9-Q rainbow.
The Same EXACT set up has you as an Underdog vs one player in Heads Up Traditional Texas Hold Em.
In Fact you would be an underdog vs one player in Tradtional Hold em With any bottom pair vs two over cards.

What do you mean by "Heads Up Traditional Texas Hold Em" and "Traditional Hold em"?

Bottom pair on the flop is generally favored against a random hand. And in most cases, you are favored with bottom pair on the flop against two overcards. So, as others noted, I think you may have something mistaken here.