Leaving chips on table or rail
To be safe, I usually try to make a quick count before I leave - at least of the larger denomination chips (which are stacked under the smaller ones). That way, if it looks like anything is missing I can notice. It's never happened, but I like to think they'd be willing at least check the video.
And I've caught guys poaching out of the rack before.
Even before that, I'd never leave my chips in the rack when taking a break. I don't bother coloring up, and just hope I can get my favored spot back when I return. If not, I just wait.
On that Travel Channel Vegas marathon last weekend, I forget which casino it was at (and some of those shows were pretty old), the boxman had a clear plastic box, you could stack your chips on the table and they'd put the box over it while you left.
That's the only way I'd ever leave my chips at the table. Nobody's watching your chips except you.
Quote: ChuckI had a guy stealing my pass line odds bets at a strip casino last month, I mentioned it sotto voce to the dealer next to me and he just said very loudly (probably for benefit of the entire table) "THEN WATCH YOUR BETS!" I ended up handling it quietly with the guy who was stealing; the boxman saw how I handled it and ended up way over-rating me.
Are you kidding? Someone was stealing chips from another player ON THE TABLE, and the dealer's response was that you were lax in watching your bets? If those chips are on the felt, they are HIS responsibility too! A complaint of theft is brushed aside like that? What if you were watching your bets, and saw him take something? You'd be within your rights to take what was stolen out of his rack, by any means necessary? What is this, the Old West?
Quote: ChuckI had a guy stealing my pass line odds bets at a strip casino last month, I mentioned it sotto voce to the dealer next to me and he just said very loudly (probably for benefit of the entire table) "THEN WATCH YOUR BETS!" I ended up handling it quietly with the guy who was stealing; the boxman saw how I handled it and ended up way over-rating me.
I have to slightly go along with the dealer on this. While such bhavior cannot be tolerated, it is everybody's responsibility to protect their own stack (and hand in some cases.) Here is where the delaer is coming from. Each base dealer has to watch eight players and all of their bets to see if any of the eight players is cheating. They need to pay out correctly and book any place or center bets. They need to do it all in less than 30 seconds between each roll. A player saying, "He took my odds bet!" can sound a little like the kid in second grade telling the teacher "he called me a name!"
Quote: cclub79If those chips are on the felt, they are HIS responsibility too!
That simply is not the case.
Quote: cclub79A complaint of theft is brushed aside like that? What if you were watching your bets, and saw him take something? You'd be within your rights to take what was stolen out of his rack, by any means necessary? What is this, the Old West?
I was to the immediate left of the dealer, the poacher was next to me basically in the center end position. The dealer had recently come on shift and just moved next to me; he was a bit of an outlier, he wasn't very friendly at all, he had been hollering at players right from the get-go.
In hindsight, the timing of the move was pretty obvious; when the dice were at our end of the table, they get rolled to the other end, most eyes follow the dice, so that's when he'd pick up my odds bet. I never actually saw the guy do it.
First time, I'm thinking maybe I didn't make the odds bet. When it happened the second time, I caught on. When the dealer called out "Watch your bets", the guy knew I was onto him and made like he had picked them up by accident. You don't pick up an odds bet by accident while the dice are being rolled.
He gave me some chips and I just said "Don't do it again", he mumbled something, and I just repeated "Don't do it again", and one more time for the DeNiro effect.
I ALWAYS take a position next to the dealer and I always put my high-denom chips next to the dealer (vs. putting them in the middle). Most of the time I'll actually pocket my blacks, I usually tell the dealer so they don't think I'm rathole-ing them.
As much as the casino certainly doesn't want their customers getting robbed, the dealers have enough to do, they can't see everything.
The guy who had been doing the stealing was a very animated character who brought some energy to the table, but he was also a little flaky, and he had a little posse, not with him at the table, but they had been talking to him earlier.
The boxman had been sitting at the table for the entire episode. I was about one poach away from asking him to call security, but after running through the flow chart of possibilities if I did that, I decided to just try to deal with the guy without calling a lot of attention to it.
I think the box appreciated how I handled because as I said, when I left the table I asked how he had rated me, and it was significantly higher than what I had been playing. I'm a good tipper too, so that doesn't hurt.
And yes, in some ways, it IS the Old West. You have to consider the consequences of calling someone a thief, both if you're right and if you're wrong. That's why when the guy made like he had done it accidentally, I didn't say "Bullshit", I just said don't do it again. Lets him know I knew what was up without actually accusing him and potentially causing other problems.
I was alone and fairly buzzed; he had a posse, might have been pretty high, and was a thief. You do the math.
Quote: AZDuffmanI have to slightly go along with the dealer on thius. While such bhavior cannot be tolerated, it is everybody's responsibility to protect their own stack (and hand in some cases.) Here is where the delaer is coming from. Each base dealer has to watch eight players and all of their bets to see if any of the eight players is cheating. They need to pay out correctly and book any place or center bets. They need to do it all in less than 30 seconds between each roll. A player saying, "He took my odds bet!" can sound a little like the kid in second grade telling the teacher "he called me a name!"
I see your point. Maybe it's less that the dealer should be responsible, but more for what happened after the theft was reported. If there are to be no repercussions for stealing someone's chips, screw playing Craps...I'm just going to stand next to drunk shooters and sneak a green every few minutes. (Obviously that's ridiculous...and it's a bit like the "blame the victim" mindset.) I think you have a reasonable assumption that your chips are safe in the playing area. The dealer's line was appropriate for FUTURE problems, but what about the chips that had been taken? Again, it sounded like the dealer was encouraging the player to take matters into his own hands. Perhaps I would have immediately requested the floor and insisted that the tapes be reviewed and I would be credited with all stolen bets, but perhaps someone else, would snatch what he felt was stolen from someone else's rack and cause a fist fight. If the dealer is trained that that's the best way to resolve the conflict at his table, then his response was appropriate.
Also, if you are a teacher and a second grader says "he stole 20 dollars from my wallet...", it's not tattling.
If it recurs, I'd do either of two things:
1) Say as loudly as possible without screaming "Get your hands off my chips, thief!"
2) Tell the dealer and/or boxman "Would you be so kind as to remove this chip thief from the table?"
Quote: Nareed
2) Tell the dealer and/or boxman "Would you be so kind as to remove this chip thief from the table?"
And my only point is, how would you feel if the dealer responded, in effect, "Your problem...not mine."
Quote: NareedIf I saw a player take my chips, first I'd warn him he took my bet. It's possible he did it accidentally.
If it recurs, I'd do either of two things:
1) Say as loudly as possible without screaming "Get your hands off my chips, thief!"
2) Tell the dealer and/or boxman "Would you be so kind as to remove this chip thief from the table?"
That's a wonderful theory. The problem is, you have no 3) through 10), ie. what happens next.
I thought about 3) through 10) and decided to go low-key.
The dealer and the boxman knew what was up. It's up to them if they want to ID the guy for future reference. After the dealer made it clear, my job at that point is to keep my chips and myself safe, not to be John Wayne.
Quote: Chuck
I was to the immediate left of the dealer, the poacher was next to me basically in the center end position. The dealer had recently come on shift and just moved next to me; he was a bit of an outlier, he wasn't very friendly at all, he had been hollering at players right from the get-go.
I believe the biggest problem was that you were at a strip casino. Very few casinos on the strip have dealers that are even remotely friendly. Furthermore, person to person theft is probably the most underreported crime, simply because it probably happens 5x as often than drunk people having a good time realize.
If that had happened in a casino outside off the strip or outside of Vegas, my guess is that the player gets a warning. If it happened again, he's probably asked to leave the casino. This day in age most casinos don't want to lose gambling patrons and I can't imagine any casino employee tolerating those type of actions.
Quote: TiltpoulI believe the biggest problem was that you were at a strip casino. Very few casinos on the strip have dealers that are even remotely friendly. Furthermore, person to person theft is probably the most underreported crime, simply because it probably happens 5x as often than drunk people having a good time realize.
I would disagree with you about dealers, although I make a dealer bet every time I shoot, so that probably has something to do with it, I generally get treated very well.
I agree that probably poaching goes on a lot more than people realize, that's why I wanted to relay my experience. Maybe I look like a mark or something, in addition to the chip poacher, I had a couple of broads tap me on the shoulder and ask for cigs while I was at slot machines with $500 or so in credits showing. It was an eye opener; I always keep a hand on my chips in the rack, but had never given the whole issue that much thought before.
Obviously casinos don't want their customers getting robbed; they also don't want a big scene.
Quote: Chuck
...I had a couple of broads tap me on the shoulder and ask for cigs while I was at slot machines with $500 or so in credits showing. It was an eye opener;...
They may have been hookers, thinking you might be interested in parting with a few of those dollars. Where were you playing?
Quote: cclub79I see your point. Maybe it's less that the dealer should be responsible, but more for what happened after the theft was reported. If there are to be no repercussions for stealing someone's chips, screw playing Craps...I'm just going to stand next to drunk shooters and sneak a green every few minutes. (Obviously that's ridiculous...and it's a bit like the "blame the victim" mindset.)
Blaming the victim is not what you want to do, but sometimes you have to ask the victim what they were thinking. While everyone's standard will be at least a little different, I think there is a line. When I play any casino game I watch my cheques like the money they are, my eyes never leaving them. On the other end of the spectrum are people who seem to look and think, "oooh, pretty chips!" and just let them lie as worthless as your home poker chips. Somewhere in between is the "is the victim to blame?" line.
Quote:If the dealer is trained that that's the best way to resolve the conflict at his table, then his response was appropriate.
The dealer might have been trained to do this for another reason. Dealers are trained to ignore distractions in the name of protecting the game (ie: watch the cheques.) My training to dealers would be "watch YOUR game" no matter what. For example:
Guy says "he stole my cheques"--WATCH YOUR GAME
Lady spills her drink all over the layout--WATCH YOUR GAME
Pamela Anderson walks up naked to the next table--WATCH YOUR GAME (you won'e see anything new anyways)
Barack Obama and Vladimar Putin walk up, get in a fight, and World War Three breaks out at the next table-WATCH YOUR GAME!
The more I think on this, the kmore I think this is a bigger reason.All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Quote: cclub79I see your point. Maybe it's less that the dealer should be responsible, but more for what happened after the theft was reported. If there are to be no repercussions for stealing someone's chips, screw playing Craps...I'm just going to stand next to drunk shooters and sneak a green every few minutes. (Obviously that's ridiculous...and it's a bit like the "blame the victim" mindset.)
Blaming the victim is not what you want to do, but sometimes you have to ask the victim what they were thinking. While everyone's standard will be at least a little different, I think there is a line. When I play any casino game I watch my cheques like the money they are, my eyes never leaving them. On the other end of the spectrum are people who seem to look and think, "oooh, pretty chips!" and just let them lie as worthless as your home poker chips. Somewhere in between is the "is the victim to blame?" line.
If the dealer is trained that that's the best way to resolve the conflict at his table, then his response was appropriate.
The dealer might have been trained to do this for another reason. Dealers are trained to ignore distractions in the name of protecting the game (ie: watch the cheques.) My training to dealers would be "watch YOUR game" no matter what. For example:
Guy says "he stole my cheques"--WATCH YOUR GAME
Lady spills her drink all over the layout--WATCH YOUR GAME
Pamela Anderson walks up naked to the next table--WATCH YOUR GAME (you won'e see anything new anyways)
Barack Obama and Vladimar Putin walk up, get in a fight, and World War Three breaks out at the next table-WATCH YOUR GAME!
The more I think on this, the more I think this is a bigger reason.
Quote: cclub79OK...So I'm watching my chips very carefully, and see someone take my odds bet while I have the dice in my hands. Was I supposed to drop the dice and grab his wrist? Take it from his rack? Sounds like I was already not vigilant enough because I "let" it happen. I'm sorry, but I still believe the house is the arbitrator in this case, and shouldn't shirk from that duty by saying "Watch your bets!" I was watching...I watched some thief take them. It's not difficult to grab someone's bet before they can stop you, but then what happens? I'm trying to get beyond the theft and deal with the outcome. If I get rear-ended on the highway, I suppose the police officer could say "Well you shouldn't have let him hit you..." Fair enough, the cop isn't responsible for my car, but now I want to make sure the other driver pays for the damages!
If you saw him taking the odds bet while the dice were in your hand it might not have been a bad idea to drop them and say, "Hey, bro, wrong stack!" I wasn't there and hindsight is 20/20 but I will stand by the dealer was not the one to complain to. It should have been boxman or higher. The dealer might not have used the right verbiage, but dealers are trained to dummy up and deal, not settle disputes.
I'd feel better taking my chips with me no matter how crowded the tables were.
I know there are railbirds who filch chips and often teams work a casino using a female on one side to make a gambler turn his head to respond to her question or physical contact.
I would imagine the casinos that more openly tolerate hookers have greater problems with chip thefts, but don't really know.
I do know that dealers have warned players to watch your chips in the rail and avoid spreading them out ... its as close as they are going to come to telling you what is happening. Dealers are usually told not to discuss thefts with players. Dealers have to watch their end of the table and not be drawn into distracting discussions.
I've had a dealer take my come bet and mis-position it as if it were for the player beside me. The bet won, dealer paid off the adjacent player on my left who picked it up and quickly moved it over in front of me. We had each been betting similar amounts in a more or less similar playing pattern and the dealers head was turned when I originally put my come bet down on the layout, so I wasn't really upset by it.
