Cutting Edge (formerly Raving) Table Games Conference 2015

Moderating? I thought I was refereeing.

Either way, looking forward to meeting you, ZCore13.

Quote: ShineyShine

We use flip top tables, 3 Card Poker on one side, Blackjack the other side, and can be flipped as the night demands.

Shineyshine where are you located. I have never seen this before.

Quote: Hunterhill

Shineyshine where are you located. I have never seen this before.

Dublin, Ireland.

You wouldn't notice them unless you actually saw them being flipped.

Quote: ShineyShine

Dublin, Ireland.

You wouldn't notice them unless you actually saw them being flipped.

Wasn't TCS working on an LCD screen under a thin layer of felt so you could do basically video layouts for anything, and change them on demand? Obviously a lot more expensive than a sheet of plywood but it solves all those problems. Sort of like the generic cabinets IGT or Bally sell with all LCD screens and no fixed belly glass.

Quote: MathExtremist

Wasn't TCS working on an LCD screen under a thin layer of felt so you could do basically video layouts for anything, and change them on demand? Obviously a lot more expensive than a sheet of plywood but it solves all those problems. Sort of like the generic cabinets IGT or Bally sell with all LCD screens and no fixed belly glass.

Don't know anything about that, but it sounds like something they'd do. We have Roulette and Sicbo layouts (from TCS i think) that light up the winning number/sections/bets etc, but i don't think it's LCD. And they're definitely not interchangeable.

Ive dealt on a few electronic layouts in the past, but they were plastic, and HORRIBLE to deal on if chips were used. Felt or baize is essential.

Looks like a new game was added to the list of competitors...

Money Plays

Seems a lot like War to me. Seems to have no other payouts other than even money. And most remarkably, as the rules are written on the site, seems to have no house advantage.



ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Looks like a new game was added to the list of competitors...

Money Plays

Seems a lot like War to me. Seems to have no other payouts other than even money. And most remarkably, as the rules are written on the site, seems to have no house advantage.



ZCore13

Talk about hole carding possibilities. You just need to see one stack out of the seven.

I think this game is in booth #215: Texas Pai Gow Poker
Looks like PGP but 3 dealer cards are revealed before players set their hands. Everything else appears the same as regular PGP. I assume this helps the player and wonder how often seeing 3 dealer cards changes the way a player would set their hand? I don't see a compensating rule for the house, so I assume the game just has a lower edge based on the times a player would adjust their hand set based on the revealed dealer cards......it looks like each player ends up being the dealer at one point so 3 of their cards are revealed on that hand? I may be missing something here.

There was another PGP game that is very similar, perhaps too similar, discussed here called Pai Gow Peek by Gaming Network.

Quote: Zcore13

Looks like a new game was added to the list of competitors...

Money Plays

Seems a lot like War to me. Seems to have no other payouts other than even money. And most remarkably, as the rules are written on the site, seems to have no house advantage.



ZCore13

Yeah, I would agree entirely with your assessment. I can think of a couple ways to fix it, but nobody asked me. :)

Quote: Paigowdan

There was another PGP game that is very similar, perhaps too similar, discussed here called Pai Gow Peek by Gaming Network.

Pai Gow Peek had one of the all-time most culturally insensitive icons:

Is there a chance this might be recorded and posted somewhere?

I have an interest in hearing stuff like this - but not enough to travel hundreds of miles to hear it at the expense of vacation days.

Hope that doesn't sound rude. I'd be curious to hear it, though.

Quote: ukaserex

Is there a chance this might be recorded and posted somewhere?

I have an interest in hearing stuff like this - but not enough to travel hundreds of miles to hear it at the expense of vacation days.

Hope that doesn't sound rude. I'd be curious to hear it, though.

I think you have to have a paid attendee fee to get access to any of the materials. The conference is not cheap. I'm pretty sure they don't stream the content, but they may have video archives for reference for those who paid to be there.

I could be wrong.

Quote: Paradigm

I think this game is in booth #215: Texas Pai Gow Poker
Looks like PGP but 3 dealer cards are revealed before players set their hands. Everything else appears the same as regular PGP. I assume this helps the player and wonder how often seeing 3 dealer cards changes the way a player would set their hand? I don't see a compensating rule for the house, so I assume the game just has a lower edge based on the times a player would adjust their hand set based on the revealed dealer cards......it looks like each player ends up being the dealer at one point so 3 of their cards are revealed on that hand? I may be missing something here.

Just doing a bit of surfing and came across this fun tidbit:
According to the Texas Pai Gow website, their game is "approved by the Nevada Gaming Commission". But I can't find it on the list of approved games: http://gaming.nv.gov/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=7097

Have not seen it field trialed anywhere in Nevada....

The game is approved in Nevada under the name Exposed Pai Gow. It's on version 3, first version approved Feb 2012.

It might not have been field trialed, but directly approved as a game variant, a streamlined process for side bets and close variants that don't require a full blown field trial.

It's hard to invision this being a game variant. It's so different, especially the math, the play strategy. Nevads gaming would be very restrictive to adopt it as a game varisnt. New or variant are 2 totakly different catsgories, I understsnd.

Quote: RoyalBJ

It's hard to invision this being a game variant. It's so different, especially the math, the play strategy. Nevads gaming would be very restrictive to adopt it as a game varisnt. New or variant are 2 totakly different catsgories, I understsnd.

No, quite the contrary: this is a textbook example of a simple game variant...Texas Pai Gow/Exposed Pai Gow remains a 7-card Pai Gow poker game, and it is dealt the same way, just with the added step of exposing three dealer cards. Add the single step of showing three dealer cards, and you've got it, basically.

The only game difference from Nevada Gaming's point of view is "how much is the house edge reduced by showing three cards, and submit the GLI math report to show this small house edge difference." Presto, done, and all parties avoid the additional time and expense involved in needing a full-blown field trial.

And in most cases, strategy is essentially the same and fairly easy, and this is the player's obligation, anyway. If the dealer shows a pair of Kings in the three open cards (KK7xxxx), and you've got two low pairs with a king also, keep them together instead of splitting: if the dealer plays Q7/KK432, you've won. If the dealer plays 77/KK432, you nailed a push for the save keeping them together. In most cases, the strategy would be the same, otherwise the house edge would have swung more than its 1% difference, become player positive, if it had a great strategy effect. Indeed, this also shows that hole-carding Pai Gow Poker doesn't avail the AP much.

Quote: Paigowdan

The game is approved in Nevada under the name Exposed Pai Gow. It's on version 3, first version approved Feb 2012.

It might not have been field trialed, but directly approved as a game variant, a streamlined process for side bets and close variants that don't require a full blown field trial.

The rules you linked say "the dealer will reveal his top three cards." How do you define "top three cards"? By rank, by strength, some other unpublished house way? If the dealer has K, J, T, T, T, 9, Joker, what are the top three cards? In your example where the dealer shows "(KK7xxxx)" does that mean the remaining four cards are no greater than 7?

Quote: MathExtremist

Quote: Paigowdan

The game is approved in Nevada under the name Exposed Pai Gow. It's on version 3, first version approved Feb 2012.

It might not have been field trialed, but directly approved as a game variant, a streamlined process for side bets and close variants that don't require a full blown field trial.

The rules you linked say "the dealer will reveal his top three cards." How do you define "top three cards"? By rank, by strength, some other unpublished house way? If the dealer has K, J, T, T, T, 9, Joker, what are the top three cards? In your example where the dealer shows "(KK7xxxx)" does that mean the remaining four cards are no greater than 7?

I'm pretty sure it's the top three cards of the 7 card stack that comes out of the shuffler. Not the highest ranking three cards. The reveal is done without knowledge of what any of the 7 cards are.


ZCore13

Yes.
Texas Pai Gow/Exposed Pai Gow is apparently played by sliding the top three (face-down) cards off of the dealer's hand packet and revealing them, while four cards remain unknown until all players set their hands.

Just like regular Pai Gow, but you get to see three cards out of the dealer's seven-card hand before you (as a player) set your hand. After everyone sets their hands, all the dealer's cards are visible, and the dealer sets his hand by the house way and compares hands.

You've stated that this kinda proves that hole carding this game is worthless. While I believe you, I think the dealer should expose the BOTTOM three cards, eliminating any advantage a hole carder could get, however slight it might be.

So I understand the player advantages to this game, but why is a property going to put in a Pai Gow variant with less of an House Edge (I didn't see the difference, but PGD mentioned 1% reduction in HE)?

I wouldn't want that sales pitch:

Sales person: "I have a new PGP game for you, it plays just like your current PGP, and your players are going to like the fact that they see 3 dealer cards, before setting their hands."

Casino: "What effect does that have on the HE?"

Sales person: "Well here is the math report, your HE goes down by 1%. We will give you a free trial to start, after that we will need you to pay $600 per month"

Casino: "So you are proposing taking one of my existing PGP games out and replacing it with Texas PGP and I will likely end up making less money unless my players drop a lot more $$ on the new game vs playing their regular PGP game??"

Am I missing something here? This seems like a very tough sales position for the game. Maybe they make it up with HE's that are better for the house on the side bets. If not, the game appears as if it will hold less than normal PGP and I think that will be a problem once it gets out on the floor.

Dave and Paradigm made some good points. It would be better to slide off the bottom three cards of the dealer's packet of cards, as the bottom card of the packet may have already been hole-carded also.

It might be a difficult sale, but to give the benefit of the doubt, let's say that the jury is out and that it may sell. A 1% swing in HE would basically cover the "copy effect" of the two-card side, which the dealer gets, and the game is true even-Steven; then the 5% commission on the player winning 32% of the time would provide at least 1.6%. Add to this some players won't properly utilize reading the exposed cards, and the house edge is a little more. The expectation is that demand for the game will exceed regular Pai Gow to propel its installs, so it'll have to play really great to overcome this. If the house edge and drop is 56% lower per buy-in dropped in, it'll have to drop 56% more just to break even with the already installed regular Pai Gow games.

What I see as a playing concern is that when a player has a one pair hand or a Pai Gow (the vast majority of the time), if he sees a dealer's higher pair, trips, or three to a flush in the exposed cards, he'll just think "I'm toast....nothing I can do...Dab Nammit...voice of doom...." and often be right. Basically, the player will be helped when he has to two pair and he sees one pair or something similar, it'll tell him how to play it, but this situation is rare; plus, the dealer starting with one pair may morph his hand into trips, a full house, three pair, or another monster, player ending up as toast anyway, because the dealer starting out strong in his first three cards is a bad omen anyway. And if the player has a monster, and the dealer's exposure reveals three singletons, then he can't raise his bet anyway.

Many times a game designer comes up with a catchy idea, or a possibly catchy idea, and runs with it, but the realities of "pit needs" and player responses are hard to see and factor in, from within the designer's room. In this regard, the benefits of a field trials (vis-à-vis a game variant that can be directly installed) is that the six-week numbers can reveal how strongly the players took to it in comparison to the other games on the same floor.

Possible huge collusion problem. I'm sure Eliot will take a look at it.

Quote: Paigowdan

The expectation is that demand for the game will exceed regular Pai Gow to propel its installs, so it'll have to play really great to overcome this. If the house edge and drop is 56% lower per buy-in dropped in, it'll have to drop 56% more just to break even with the already installed regular Pai Gow games.

I can't imagine convincing an operator that their drop is going to exceed 50% of an installed game with the history and track records of Fortune PGP, Emperor's Challenge PGP or EZ PGP.

Quote: Paigowdan

What I see as a playing concern is that when a player has a one pair hand or a Pai Gow (the vast majority of the time), if he sees a dealer's higher pair, trips, or three to a flush in the exposed cards, he'll just think "I'm toast....nothing I can do...Dab Nammit...voice of doom...." and often be right.

Very good point here Dan that I didn't even think about......this will reduce the suspense factor of PGP for the player. There will be hands they know they are likely dead on even before squeezing their 7 Cards.......what happens when the dealer shows AAK or QQA or a variety of high hands (think how often you get a great 3CP poker hand)......I would rather not know what the dealer has unless that information is going to be strategically useful on a regular basis (like knowing the dealer upcard in BJ)......I don't know the stats, but it doesn't sound like this knowledge is going to be useful that often, but it sure is going to impact my enthusiasm for my hand even before I start squeezing the cards.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes.
Texas Pai Gow/Exposed Pai Gow is apparently played by sliding the top three (face-down) cards off of the dealer's hand packet and revealing them, while four cards remain unknown until all players set their hands.

Leave it to me to interpret "top three cards" mathematically as opposed to literally the three topmost cards of the hand. Heh.

That's why you're the Math Extremist. The One and Only, and all Ours. ;)

I think they should tweak the rules and have the player make an ante bet.Then after the dealers three cards are exposed the player can bet or fold.