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Poll
16 votes (57.14%) | |||
3 votes (10.71%) | |||
No votes (0%) | |||
5 votes (17.85%) | |||
4 votes (14.28%) |
28 members have voted
No, this is not DJTeddyBear's latest roulette side bet. It is a poker-based game in which deuces and a joker are wild. It involves a blind bet, no dealer opening hand, and a fold/raise decision. You can find all the rules plus my analysis and strategy at my new page on DJ Wild.
I saw the game at the New York New York on Thursday. The table was packed at the time and the players seemed to like it.
As always, I welcome comments, questions, suggestions, and especially corrections.
The question for the poll is would you play DJ Wild?
Quote: ParadigmThe frequency of getting paid on the Blind bet seems to be about 1 in 17 hands. Wiz, did you figure out what the RTP on the Blind bet only? Wonder how it compares to the Blind RTP in UTH?
I'm surprised it's only 1 in 17. With 5 wild cards to work with, and starting with the same threshold as in UTH, I would've guessed it would be about 1 hand in 5 would qualify, with maybe 20-25% of those losing to a better dealer hand. Total SWAG on the numbers, but 1 in 17 seems really low.
EDIT: ok, I take it back; I ran the numbers, and Paradigm is on target. Sure feels like better than 1 in 17 to play it, but it must be the 5 out of 5 cards (rather than 5 out of 7 like UTH) that makes such a difference in frequency (all Blind pay hands use 5 cards except 4OAK).
Sigh, no. But I'll take the eye-candy!Quote: Wizard
No, this is not DJTeddyBear's latest roulette side bet.
I have only one comment about the review. You list the odds of the five wilds as 0.000000 . Shouldn't you list that as <0.000001 ?
No, I wouldn't play. Way too carnival for my tastes.
Quote: DJTeddyBearYou list the odds of the five wilds as 0.000000 . Shouldn't you list that as <0.000001 ?
It just rounds to 0.000000 to six decimal places. The actual probability 1/combin(53,5) = 0.0000003484703.
Quote: ParadigmThe frequency of getting paid on the Blind bet seems to be about 1 in 17 hands. Wiz, did you figure out what the RTP on the Blind bet only? Wonder how it compares to the Blind RTP in UTH?
The Blind wins with probability 5.98%, or 1 in 16.7 hands. The expected LOSS on the Blind is 38.2%.
Quote: WizardThe Blind wins with probability 5.98%, or 1 in 16.7 hands. The expected LOSS on the Blind is 38.2%.
Yeah, that seems a bit steep to me and will impact the feel of the game to the player, IMHO. I believe the Super Bonus in Crazy Four with its -0.34 RTP gets paid about twice as often.
I don't know what the limitations are on using a mandatory highly negative compensating bet as the mechanism to claw back HE, but DJ Wild has to be getting close with its Blind set up. That being said, the only opinion that matters is the players voting with their $$$ and that seems to be working so far.
Quote: ParadigmYeah, that seems a bit steep to me and will impact the feel of the game to the player, IMHO. I believe the Super Bonus in Crazy Four with its -0.34 RTP gets paid about twice as often.
I'm hoping to play at the NYNY this evening to get a better feeling for the "fun factor." Anybody want to join me?
I must admit that before I heard of Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em I would have been skeptical of this idea of mandating a very negative side bet. I considered such an idea for my own Ties Win Blackjack, but only briefly, as I didn't want to complicate the game and I thought forcing a side bet would seem like a jip.
However, I would have been proven wrong. UTHE is a big success. Players don't seem to view the Blind as a mandated side bet but as a natural part of the game. Multiple times I've heard players debate about how the casino gets its edge in the game. I've tried to explain that it comes from the Blind bet, which rarely wins, but of course other players look at me like I'm just another clown who doesn't know what he's talking about.
Quote: ParadigmWish I could join you.....I think the fact that this Blind bet rarely gets paid (the 1 in 17 hands frequency) is going to highlight the bad bet component of this game's blind. Wiz, I didn't see on UTH and it is quite a task to add up that results pay table (unlike the Crazy Four Blind pay table results), how frequently does the UTH Blind get paid? I know the expectation is like -0.31, but if it got paid like one in 7-8 hands, that would be disguised to the player.
In UTH, the blind hits 8.74% of the time, or once in 11 hands or so, so that during a typical session, you are subliminally aware enough "that it pays," that it feels like a positive bet to make.
It's when the negative prop bet hit frequency exceeds this 1 in 11-or-so hands by too much that we become aware that "it ain't really paying." But the blind bet allows the Raise feature, which is what we really notice - getting paid on the raises, but the blind bet must not be essentially dead all the time, or else its disguise wears off and it becomes noticed that it is functioning as a heavy vig or commission for that raise feature.
I don't know if it is too rare on DJ Wild, time and patronage will tell.
Nevertheless, the table had a couple die hard players who I think had been playing it a long time. Another player looked like a boxer who was there for the big fight. He just sat there and played -- very badly -- raising on garbage.
Quote: WizardI'm hoping to play at the NYNY this evening to get a better feeling for the "fun factor." Anybody want to join me?
I must admit that before I heard of Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em I would have been skeptical of this idea of mandating a very negative side bet.
Hey it worked out well for Lunar Poker too mandating that Super bet, I love that game! They need to make a 7 card stud table game with a joker and a wild jack of clubs (or whatever is wild in that one version of stud) that would be freaking cool! Like I said before, we need more games with wild cards so I really hope DJ Wild makes it out my way, based on your experience can you see it becoming more widespread?
Very Decent. Fun, easy to deal and play, no dealer had a problem.
And, I was on constant anticipation of getting dealt wilds. I must admit, the anticipation of getting a few wild cards was a draw as a player; I was thinking about it every time I was getting my cards, - as the first thing to look for in the hand. This was a bit counter-balanced by frequently seeing the dealer get them. [Once, the dealer had a wild quint 7's - three deuces, a joker, and a 7. People screamed, but that's rare.]
Because wilds are so big in this game, I did appreciate the higher payouts for natural good hands. The layout pay tables were well designed with a natural payouts to the right of the wild payout on the same payout line; having a 16-line paytable is a chore, so, this was an elegant solution. Plus, I saw a lot of natural trips, so the added natural payouts were sweet. In $500, out $300 hours later, but had fun, no regrets.
It was a Saturday night at NYNY, and the game was a little bit slow. I bought in on a dead game, and played for 10 minutes when two guys, apparently friends, jumped on for a half-hour. Aside from that, it was just me, and later my wife joined.
Overall, very fine, but not UTH-level compelling, yet way better and near the top of the sea of new game field trials this spring, of a crop of five.
Good points:
1. As a player-versus-dealer game, it had very good give and take. Winning every other hand on average means a lot, which asks why play table games like MS, LIR, and the like that are rough, especially if multiple units to play out the hand. No "paytable sweat-the-win" here. Actually, it feels like Crazy4Poker to play, which is good. Minimum hand? 4's. Try it, face the dealer, win half the time, and find yourself a streak or a big hand, - more likely either way with wilds present.
2. This game has GREAT "Poker Eye effect:" you can see your playing position strength, how strong you are from what's dealt. No counting outs, no heavy strategy like Double Draw Poker, etc. Got a pair of 4's? Okay, play, else fold. Very sensible and straightforward play with a combination of anticipation [of getting wilds], and a decision point [to Play/fold].
3. Dealer always qualifies: Scratch out a win, especially when you gamble on a borderline hand, - your Ante is always paid, too. Much appreciated.
4. Games like this, [and High Card Flush and Poker with a Joker] that are getting traction may help to finally kill off old dogs like LIR, MS, etc. Evolution is relentless.
5. Easy to jump onto for slot players who dabble on table games, like my wife. They know what wild deuces are. "I have a King and two deuces - so that's trips - play it!" That's part of the appeal and sensibility of the game.
6. The lack of the raise bet really helps players to play by correct strategy, and keeps them in the game. On a new game, not knowing when to raise when a raise is a "should do" burns out players for the abandonment of the game. In this way it is a "safe" game like Three Card Poker, and not a rough game like Double Draw Poker, which had a lot of casualties and abandonment.
"Neutrals:"
1. One can say that this might Cannibalize SHFL's older games that are still on the floor with these newer games replacing them. So what. This is actually not a con: If DEQ, Galaxy or AGS were to cannibalize their games, however, then that would be SHFL problem to allow a market share loss. This replacement scenario may be just updating the portfolio and cycling in better products to maintain market share, which is a win in a competitive industry. In this regard, and if DJ Wild becomes popular, it'll serve both expansion and maintenance to remove the obsolete, which is something every company does to shore up things. It if just swaps out the older stuff, then every such replacement keeps the operator in the fold, even if not a blockbuster.
2. Decent, but not awesome.
Other:
1. No raise: play 2x or fold, pick one. Again, so what, but the raise would be nice, and is desirable for top-level players who can play strategy. But this also promotes the Trip plus to be bet, to win bigger on big hands, which is a plus for the operator. Plus, adding a raise would have sacrificed the nice "Dealer always qualifies" feature and the blind bet pay table, so this is a good solution.
Quote: bigfoot66Does anyone else think it's a little wierd that 5 of a kind beats a straight flush and loses to a royal?
Isn't it in between the two in DW video poker? Yes I know there is no joker there but still...
The knee-jerk reaction is that a Royal is nothing but a specific Straight Flush, so why slip the Five of a Kind in-between?Quote: bigfoot66Does anyone else think it's a little wierd that 5 of a kind beats a straight flush and loses to a royal?
But once you give the Royal it's own payline, it's quite acceptable to put the next item ranked by probability on the next line.
I.E. 5oak is more more likely than a Royal, but less likely than a SF.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThe knee-jerk reaction is that a Royal is nothing but a specific Straight Flush, so why slip the Five of a Kind in-between?
But once you give the Royal it's own payline, it's quite acceptable to put the next item ranked by probability on the next line.
I.E. 5oak is more more likely than a Royal, but less likely than a SF.
They are allowed to structure the game however they want. But I can't see this flying in a live poker game. Also a royal is just a certain type of straight flush. It is just as hard to make a 5-9 straight flush as a royal.
Another old thread with a new life, cool, I hit, took me back to the beginning. I kept trying to read the intelligent responses, but I kept being drawn into the initial pic. I'm lost in here, but it's warm and cozy.....Quote: HittemOne of my favorites!
Quote: BirdiemachineDFI am heading to Vegas next week. I heard that DJ Wild is at Harrah's now. Is there any truth to that? Is it anywhere else in town? Thanks for the heads up in advance.
I can verify that it was there Labor Day weekend when I was there.
I don't think the table is open 24/7 though...
Quote: ams288I can verify that it was there Labor Day weekend when I was there.
I don't think the table is open 24/7 though...
Sorry to be a pest, but did it have the two way bad beat and trips side bets? Did you also see the table minimums? Thanks for your helo
Quote: BirdiemachineDFSorry to be a pest, but did it have the two way bad beat and trips side bets? Did you also see the table minimums? Thanks for your helo
$5 mins.
I have no idea about the side bets, I didn't look that closely. I just saw the table in passing a few times as I was going to and from the monorail station.
Maker in this game . I just hit Quads vs straight flush for 300:1 on my 20 bucks.
You will not Come out ahead just banking on winning hands it is hard to play for a long time and a small bankroll . I enjoy it here in Cleveland and at harrahs .
Quote: IbeatyouracesQuote: WizardYou can find all the rules plus my analysis and strategy at my new page on DJ Wild.
Update, Greektown no longer has DJ Wild. Hollywood Toledo did but not sure if they still do.
I was just at Hollywood on Tuesday and I played it for the first time. Didn't do well but still had fun.
Question about strategy on the WOO page:
Raise with a pair of fours or better, except with two fours and a three singleton. Otherwise fold.
I don't understand the "except with two fours and a three singleton" part—if you have two 4s and a 3, that's still a pair of fours or better. The next sentence is "The three singleton exception makes sense because a pair of fours will beat a pair of threes, and the chances of the dealer getting a pair of threes is significantly less with one of them in the player's hand."
Am I misinterpreting how it's written?
Oh wait, I think I'm getting it—you FOLD when you have a 3 because then it's unlikely the dealer has a pair of 3s, so having two 4s is less of an advantage? Is that it?
Quote: gordonm888With 5 wild cards, you will get a qualified trips hands 22.0855% of the time.
See the table here: WOO
So about 1 every 4 or 5 hands. I've begin to play them after the 5th non qualified hands. I think I went all the way up to 10 hands without trips, and after the 9th hand I bet $50 on the trips and $25 on the BB and ended up getting quads and the BB. But it rarely gets past 6 hands, and you will see at least trips
Quote: NoncompeteMy local casino recently installed DJ Wild, however a couple of the dealers who are used to Caribbean Stud sometimes deal it with one of their cards face up. Does anyone know a strategy for this or if it is beatable?
Good question. I do not.
P.S. I think it's in storage, just need to find it.
Quote: NoncompeteMy local casino recently installed DJ Wild, however a couple of the dealers who are used to Caribbean Stud sometimes deal it with one of their cards face up. Does anyone know a strategy for this or if it is beatable?
For the life of me I can't remember where I saw it but somebody did the math on this and posted publicly that seeing one dealer card does not shift the edge to the players in this game. That info was not taking into consideration seeing the other players cards. With the covid rules it's probably dealt face up which I imagine will barely be enough to shift the edge in the players favor but developing a near-perfect intuitive strategy would be tough. The only 2 installations I knew about of this game disappeared shortly after the re-opening.
If anyone sufficiently skilled here is willing to do the simulation work (for a reasonable fee) let's talk.
Even if you knew the game was beatable, or near even money, simulations would work out when you should play/fold, but only give you totals that with lower hands you often played and higher hands you occasionally didn't.
I did this for 3-card poker once, depending on how many cards you peeked, you fairly often played less than Qxx and sometimes folded good Qxx's. I suspect for reasonable numbers, you always played Kxx.
I can imagine running simulations for this game would create a similar result.