'Beating Slots' Interview

i would agree with this . also i would like to be the only AP in a casino. ; )

Quote: gamerfreak

I realize that there is a cost to collecting bonuses and must hit progressives.

I am saying that among jackpot winners, ploppies will keep playing and give a large amount back to the casino, while vultures will give back virtually none.

i agree but the AP may give back some of the winning.

Quote: gamerfreak

I realize that there is a cost to collecting bonuses and must hit progressives.

I am saying that among jackpot winners, ploppies will keep playing and give a large amount back to the casino, while vultures will give back virtually none.

If you polled average ploppies (not addicted players) they most likely will tell you they gamble sporadically. Perhaps once or twice a year even. Maybe once a month.

These players will take that Jackpot and go home, have a vacation "on the casino"

The vultures meanwhile are there everyday risking their money and yes they do risk it. Their risk is just a different EV.

Your assumption is that ALL POOPIES never leave after winning a Jackpot. Quite a few are afraid of "giving it back"

Quote: darkoz

They don't add nor take away. The machines are performing as expected and obtaining the same profits

No one is arguing that the machines are performing as expected, the hold is the hold either way on a slot machine.

How can they not add or take away if they are making money? Explain where is the money coming from that the vultures make?

Quote: AxelWolf

No one is arguing that the machines are performing as expected, the hold is the hold either way on a slot machine.

How can they not add or take away if they are making money? Explain where is the money coming from that the vultures make?

It’s going to take a simple hypothetical to convince DarkOz. I can already tell he’s dug into his mathematically incorrect position.

Quote: AxelWolf

No one is arguing that the machines are performing as expected, the hold is the hold either way on a slot machine.

How can they not add or take away if they are making money? Explain where is the money coming from that the vultures make?

The vultures are making the money from the ploppies.

If there were no vulturing, the ploppies would make the money, because the ploppies would experience the same wins the vultures do

Your argument is that ploppies never stop gambling causing them to return whatever they win. While there are quite a few ploppies who do that there are just as many casual gamblers who would leave after a big win.

In fact the only players guaranteed to keep playing are the vultures.

Take a progressive Jackpot that prior to being won is disabled. The progressive Jackpot has to be given back to the players in some manner, moving the progressive to a different machine or some type of promotion. The casino doesn't get to keep that money because it's not theirs.

You get that concept?

Any money won by a vulturable opportunity belongs to the players (not the casino) regardless of whether they leave or keep playing afterwards

Quote: unJon

It’s going to take a simple hypothetical to convince DarkOz. I can already tell he’s dug into his mathematically incorrect position.

The hold on the slot doesn't alter if a vulture or a ploppie wins the vulturable situation.

Do you agree?

How does an unchanged mathematical hold mean the Casinos losing more if a vulture wins?

Take the $10,000 Must-hit. The progressive is coming from a fraction of what previous players have put in. That money doesn't belong to the casino. It belongs to whomever wins, be he ploppie or vulture.

The casino has made it's money regardless

The % hold doesn’t change. The $ hold likely will because, as stated by others, the AP is up and gone while most recreational players are going to keep running coin through.

I snickered at the "roving gangs", but it's a blip in an otherwise outstanding video.

Quote: darkoz

The vultures are making the money from the ploppies.

If there were no vulturing, the ploppies would make the money, because the ploppies would experience the same wins the vultures do

Your argument is that ploppies never stop gambling causing them to return whatever they win. While there are quite a few ploppies who do that there are just as many casual gamblers who would leave after a big win.

In fact the only players guaranteed to keep playing are the vultures.

Take a progressive Jackpot that prior to being won is disabled. The progressive Jackpot has to be given back to the players in some manner, moving the progressive to a different machine or some type of promotion. The casino doesn't get to keep that money because it's not theirs.

You get that concept?

Any money won by a vulturable opportunity belongs to the players (not the casino) regardless of whether they leave or keep playing afterwards

I don't care who the money belongs to since I said... vultures hurt the casinos bottom line. The casino makes less money because there are vultures.

IIRC there are statistics on how much the average gambler loses per year($300). The average gambler has a budget. All gamblers have a limited amount of money they can spend gambling, individually, and as a whole. If Advantage players are taking any of that away from them, then it stands to reason that it must hurt the casinos bottom line since it's less money the gamblers have to lose in the casino.

If a ploppy who only has $300 is on his way to the casino, and somehow an advantage player steals $150 from his wallet when he first enters the casino, that's $150 less the ploppy has to lose in the casino, thus hurting the casinos bottom line. Vultures are " stealing" the gamblers value, that value = money. Thats less money the ploppy has to lose in the casino.