Am I a Donkey

I really love playing poker. I don't consider myself very good at it yet though. I have been playing for a couple years now almost all online free sites. I really wanted to gain a comfort level before playing with my own money. I did play small stakes on pay sites prior to black friday but I feel I have come a long way since then. I do realize there is a huge difference between playing with real money vs fake money.

Last weekend I finally took the big plunge. I played in two seperate live tournaments at the Santa Fe. The first one I did ok, I finished 10th out of 40. I was the chip leader until the blinds got real big and I took two bad beats in a row.

The second one was only 20 people, all old white guys, and everyone knew everyone except me. I was card dead for 2.5 hours, no pairs , no high cards, nothing. I was getting down to under 5k left and the blinds were 600/1200. I had Ace, 5 of hearts and I was the small blind. Everyone folded to me so I called the big blind. The flop came 2 hearts and nothing. The bb bet several thousand and I figured do or die so I went all in. He showed pocket queens and when he saw what I had he wasn't too concerned. The river came up with the 5th heart and I beat him with the nut flush.

He started cussin and swearin and bitchin about that G.D. river and just acted like I was a total donkey. I said sorry but I didn't have much choice and left it alone.

So was that a donkey play on my part?

No. The way I see it, it might not have been a good play in a regular game, but it was a good play for that situation in a tournament style game.

I think you did the right thing on giving a small explanation and letting it go. The reality is that you played unpredictably, and he didn't like it. Awww. Next.

Thanks Mosca, those were my thoughts going into the hand. This isn't how I would play in a cash game but in this tournament at this point in time my back is against the wall.

Wait a sec....

Pre-flop you called your small blind discount, and he slow played his big pair, and he's claiming YOU are the donkey?

If he had raised pre-flop, THEN I can see his point, although I wouldn't blame you for calling then either.

But by letting you see the flop cheap, and giving you the big draw that you had, he's the donkey.

Thlf,

In a word. No.

However I think your decision to just call preflop was the questionable play. I think a raise is a much better bet with any ace, your good more times than your bad against a random hand, Ok he had QQ this time, but you nail him 80-90% of the time.
I tend to play a tight aggressive style these days and its working better than my old nit style.
If the big blind is checking with QQ he is the donkey. If he had re-raised you, its an easy fold.

I always raise if I am the first person to show interest in a pot, and I re-raise about 75% of the time if someone else has raised before me and I still want to play. The cards have little or no effect on my action. If I am first in, I am raising with JT or AA or 22. If I am playing after a raise I am re-raising with similar hand ranges. This way I give no info away about the strength of my hand. This means 25% of the time I will flat call with AA or A5 (or any other hand) if I feel the need to get involved in the pot. I randomly determine the 25% by looking at the suit on my first card, if its a heart I just call, anything else I am raising.

As for blinding down, you need to work on this. There should never really be a reason to blind yourself out. Use your tight image if you have been card dead to steal some pots, do it from the button or cut off so you dont get caught by someone with a monster in late position, and if you get caught stealing, make it look like a tough fold, or almost call. By almost call I mean count out the chips, ask the dealer to spread the pot, ask the other player how many chips he/she has. Make him/her think they are lucky that you folded this time, they will be less likely to try and bluff you later.

Try making moves against players with medium chip stacks rather than short stacks and people who you can barely see behind their chips. These people are more likely to call light.

Next time someone behaves like this, ask them what cards they wanted you to have. He was happy to see A5 on the flop, he cant bitch if it bites him on the ass. You could of flopped all sorts of hands if he didnt re-raise preflop. I would then try and get into as many pots as possible with this player.

Tilting the old white guys is half the fun. Well done.

Thanks DJ I really thought he played it wrong when I saw what he had.

Wiz of Eng.
I know at this point I am very tight and these are things I have to learn. Keep in mind this was my second time live ever. I do play much more aggressive on line free but so does everyone else so it's tough to learn. I am going to keep going back probably once a week to continue learning and try to get better. It only costs me $50 for this tournament and it is run everyday so it won't be too costly of lessons.

Don't say anything in those situations. Just give the sign that you want people to think is your 'tell'. A half smile, pulling the brim of your cap down, twirling your golden locks of naturally curly hair, etc. Then next time, when you do have a powerhouse hand, you flash your 'tell' and they'll think you're bluffing.

I played in a tournament at the Imperial Palace where one guy's 'tell' was to actually tell everyone that he was bluffing.

I wish I had a poker room nearby that I could play one tournament a week like that. Sigh. Instead, I play in a poker league, several nights each week.



Do a Google search for poker leagues in your area.

Some are better than others. It's a great way to learn, and ask questions. To keep things legal, they can't charge to participate, just ask you to patronize the venue.

Although you can't win money, you'll be spending far less than $50...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I wish I had a poker room nearby that I could play one tournament a week like that. Sigh. Instead, I play in a poker league, several nights each week.



Do a Google search for poker leagues in your area.

Some are better than others. It's a great way to learn, and ask questions. To keep things legal, they can't charge to participate, just ask you to patronize the venue.

Although you can't win money, you'll be spending far less than $50...

I looked into the poker league's around here and the drawbacks are: too far from my house, I am in the Northwest, and usually only play on weeknights 6pm or later. I don't like going out on week nights, and I work very early in the morning so definitely not out late on a week night. The casino's I can find tournaments usually any day of the week, and both evenings and afternoons. Believe me it is a lot cheaper for me to go sit in at a tournament for $50 than to actually sit at a casino for the same amount of time and play VP.

I understand poker, but not live poker with strangers.

I wont' ask, though. I'll just say "You mind your cards, I'll mind mine." :)

Quote: thlf

Thanks DJ I really thought he played it wrong when I saw what he had.

Wiz of Eng.
I know at this point I am very tight and these are things I have to learn. Keep in mind this was my second time live ever. I do play much more aggressive on line free but so does everyone else so it's tough to learn. I am going to keep going back probably once a week to continue learning and try to get better. It only costs me $50 for this tournament and it is run everyday so it won't be too costly of lessons.

You should be playing tight AND aggressive. Like WoE said, with a suited Ace in the small blind (really, anywhere) and less than 8x the blinds in your stack, I think you raise all-in. Then we wouldn't be having this talk.

So you didn't raise. Once you were in the position on the flop, there is 2400 in the pot, you have 4400 chips. He bets several k, let's say 3k. If you KNOW he has a big pair like QQ, then you have 9 heart outs plus the 3 aces, for 12. About 36% chance of winning. For your 4400 you have a shot at winning his 4400 (assuming he always calls) + 2400 in the pot.

The pot odds are not quite there, so in a cash game, you might want to fold. In a tourney situation where you risk being blinded out, this is an fine time to call. He could easily be bluffing, and you have him beat already with your Ace. If you fold now, your odds of recovering are much worse with a smaller stack. Take the chance and raise him all in.

All of that is somewhat elementary though, because you should have raised your small blind all-in and closed your eyes.

Quote: thlf

The second one was only 20 people, all old white guys, and everyone knew everyone except me. I was card dead for 2.5 hours, no pairs , no high cards, nothing.

If you're card-dead for so long, loosen up. Forget the cards, play the position and your opponent's hand.

What is "high cards" - two faces? Two faces is a strong hand for a tournament.

Ace-rag suited is a good hand for loose play. It reduces the risk that someone has the rockets, and if your bluff doesn't go through, you at least have ace-high, possible top pair, possible flush draw and an inside straight draw.
Suited connectors, however low or high, is another very playable hand when going loose.
You were card-dead by TAG standards, but it's very difficult not to get a LAG hand in 2.5 hours.

Quote: thlf

He started cussin and swearin and bitchin about that G.D. river and just acted like I was a total donkey. I said sorry but I didn't have much choice and left it alone.

Some players do that. No one likes bad beats.

Quote: thlf

I was getting down to under 5k left and the blinds were 600/1200. I had Ace, 5 of hearts and I was the small blind. Everyone folded to me so I called the big blind. The flop came 2 hearts and nothing. The bb bet several thousand and I figured do or die so I went all in. He showed pocket queens and when he saw what I had he wasn't too concerned. The river came up with the 5th heart and I beat him with the nut flush.

So was that a donkey play on my part?

Not really, it was a fish play.

Pushing all-in when you only have enough for 2 rounds of blinds isn't aggression, it's desperation. You can actually use it sometimes on purpose; if people are convinced you're desperate, you can get the whole table (or, at least, anyone with more than 72o) to call your all-in and come back from the dead provided you have the best hand.

If you do decide to push all-in, at this point you should shove on the flop at latest, not wait for BB to bet. It was your flop. There was a chance he would have folded. In fact, being the big blind, he could have had anything.
A fast raise out of nowhere represents a low pocket pair, you could be put on a low set. Of course you still got the pot, but that way you could get it even without that heart. Pocket queens versus a flush draw and a possible set is not a strong hand. That way you'd have the same odds for the full pot, plus some chances for just picking up the blinds.

Shove that flop! Make him make the decision. In this case he calls and you get the same result anyway, but now you have two ways to win: you can hit your hand or he can fold.

Well thanks for all of they reply's everyone, I feel better now. I am going back today to play in the nooner at the Santa Fe and continue my education.

You should be jamming any two preflop against 90%+ of players SB vs BB there.

Also, if you regularly have 15BB and under stacks getting blinded to down below ~8BBs it probably means you aren't shoving preflop enough.

Well I have been playing about a month now at the noon tournaments at Santa Fe. I have missed the final table only once in that time. I have cashed 3 times. Last Friday I took 2nd which was my best finish so far. I chopped with two others once and I cashed 4th once. So either I am not too bad, or the players at the Santa Fe are quite bad. I don't think they are too bad though. It is a lot of regulars, I would say at least half every time. Main thing is I am having fun and learning at the same time.

Usually being a ROCK will get you to the final table in small tournaments. Not trying to be critical, just wondering how many players on average
in the tournaments ? Good place to learn, but very little will transfer to live games. Especially low limits.

Quote: buzzpaff

Usually being a ROCK will get you to the final table in small tournaments. Not trying to be critical, just wondering how many players on average
in the tournaments ? Good place to learn, but very little will transfer to live games. Especially low limits.

There are usually 2 to 4 tables of 10. I'm not sure if I misunderstood but this is live tournament play at the Santa Fe Casino in Las Vegas.

My next step will be to play in a cash game. Also there is a 10k guarantee tourney every second saturday of the month. Next one is 3/10. The entry is $125, and they said it usually brings in 110 to 125 entrants. I'm seriously thinking about trying it for the experience.

Go for it. the 10K that is? As for 2 to 4 table tournaments, I actually saw a non-show make the final table in a 4 table tournament.

Player had pre-paid, so he was being blinded off till he showed up. Which he never did that night.

Twice on all-in situation he had 3 callers and won side pot . Went out on 1st hand he had to post blind at final table.

Sure would have embarrassed a few people had he cashed. LOL

Update:

So I played in the 10k guarantee at the Santa Fe this weekend. Wound up being 114 participants. I knocked out the first person of the tourney. I made it till 2 away from the money, I think it was 17th. Last hand. I'm the BB, everyone folds to the SB. Sb bets about a quarter of his stack. I look down and I have KK. I go all in. Sb calls and show 4 5 soooted. WTF. SOB rivers a straight. Everyone at the table freaked. Frustrating but I am satisfied with my progress.

Quote: thlf

Sb calls and show 4 5 soooted. WTF. SOB rivers a straight.

I feel your pain. If you see him again, show him this:

Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/suited_crap.png

If I can find it, I'll post a higher-res PDF of this later...

Quote: thlf

Update:

So I played in the 10k guarantee at the Santa Fe this weekend. Wound up being 114 participants. I knocked out the first person of the tourney. I made it till 2 away from the money, I think it was 17th. Last hand. I'm the BB, everyone folds to the SB. Sb bets about a quarter of his stack. I look down and I have KK. I go all in. Sb calls and show 4 5 soooted. WTF. SOB rivers a straight. Everyone at the table freaked. Frustrating but I am satisfied with my progress.

Just as long as you realize the sb made a good play in my opinion. He was trying to steal a pot and most players tighten up as the money line approaches. You do not say what chips stacks were for each of you, average chip stack, etc. Yes, he got lucky. But you have to get lucky in NL to win 1st, which should be your objective, not just getting to the final table.

Hmmm...

Buzz has a point. The SB was making a play, figuring he can buy steal the BB.

The question is, how much more was it to call the all-in?

Only then can we decide if he was a Donkey or not.

To answer a few questions.

We were all fairly large stacked as it was so late in the tourney. Like I said his raise was about a fourth of his stack. Him and I were fairly close in total. I went all in because I was pretty strong. When I asked him why he called the all in he said it was because he was short stacked and he over committed on the raise. meh.
In hind sight I kinda wish I would have just called him and then raised him all in on the flop, because after the flop it still didn't look too good for him and he might have folded. I assumed he would fold the all in in the first place. Not.

Quote: thlf

To answer a few questions.

We were all fairly large stacked as it was so late in the tourney. Like I said his raise was about a fourth of his stack. Him and I were fairly close in total. I went all in because I was pretty strong. When I asked him why he called the all in he said it was because he was short stacked and he over committed on the raise. meh.
In hind sight I kinda wish I would have just called him and then raised him all in on the flop, because after the flop it still didn't look too good for him and he might have folded. I assumed he would fold the all in in the first place. Not.

This is what makes poker such a great game. The board can go from your best friend to your worst enemy in one turn of a card.

I hope you remembered your previous experience and didn't call him a "donkey" (to his face at least)

I probably would have layed down the crap as well, and it's hard not to call an all in preflop with kings, especially in a tournament.

You made the right move. As the wizard says, it's not whether you win or lose, it's whether you made a good bet.

I never criticize someone elses play in poker. I think it's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of. "You're supposed to play this way, that way I know what you are doing and can make decisions based off that"...

A guy called me a donk for bluffing at him with absolutely nothing, when he had the Q high flush. Excuse me for noticing weakness in his hand, and hoping he would fold...

Actually it went quite well as we see each other frequently in the poker room. I of course ribbed him and he took it well and gave it right back too.