ewjones080
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May 30th, 2013 at 1:13:34 AM permalink
So I was having a discussion with a fellow dealer and a player about Ultimate Texas Hold Em. The dealer used to play Omaha professionally. The player plays Max on all bets including Trips on Ultimate. The question is what's the right play if you've checked all the way and there's a 2 low flush on the board, and that's what you're playing.(no matching suit in your two cards).... Do you fold and tuck and take the guaranteed 7:1 on trips.. Or do you play, hoping the dealer doesn't beat you??

I calculated 8C2+8C1 / 42C5


Calculating I came to the conclusion it's best I play this every time as that's the +EV.. The other two were saying fold... So who's right... Math proof is appreciated, thanks


PS. The numerator might even be TOO big in the above calculation..
JB
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May 30th, 2013 at 2:09:32 AM permalink
First, ignore the Trips bet since that's independent.

Second, you take the ante and blind bets into consideration. Here are the two possible outcomes if you place the 1x play bet in the situation you describe:

324/990 = lose  the ante, blind, and play bets (–3 units) = –0.981818
666/990 = push the ante, blind, and play bets (+0 units) = +0.000000

The return of making the 1x play bet is therefore –0.981818

However, the return of folding is -2.000000, because you would lose the ante and blind bets. Since -0.98 is a higher return than -2, you should make the 1x play bet.

So it's not +EV, but you will lose less by making the 1x play bet than you would lose by folding.
ewjones080
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May 30th, 2013 at 3:14:08 AM permalink
Your first line JB is exactly what I was trying to tell the player, but he didn't get it.. After I posted I worked out the problem and I suppose we came to the same solution, just written different ways....

Always Fold: All possible dealer hands x 2 (units) = 990 x 2 = -1980
Always Play: All possible non greater flush hands =666 x 3 = +1998

Difference is 18 units better if you call v. Fold.
ewjones080
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May 30th, 2013 at 8:12:49 PM permalink
Anybody else with thoughts?
Pokeraddict
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May 30th, 2013 at 8:39:49 PM permalink
Quote: ewjones080

Anybody else with thoughts?



Doesn't the trips bet get paid even if you fold? On the video version it does. I don't bet it so I don't know for sure.
djatc
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May 30th, 2013 at 8:56:19 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

Doesn't the trips bet get paid even if you fold? On the video version it does. I don't bet it so I don't know for sure.



Every casino I played at requires you to play the hand to qualify. The sim here pays without it for some reason.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
Knuckleball3
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May 30th, 2013 at 8:59:46 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

Doesn't the trips bet get paid even if you fold? On the video version it does. I don't bet it so I don't know for sure.



Every casino has its own rules on this. At Pechanga in Temecula, Ca they make you bet the play spot to get paid on trips, however I have played many places that allow you to fold and still get paid on trips.
"In the poker game of life, women are the rake" Edward Norton (Rounders)
tringlomane
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May 30th, 2013 at 9:02:59 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

Every casino I played at requires you to play the hand to qualify. The sim here pays without it for some reason.



Because the casinos you play at are apparently running the game wrong.

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/docs/game_rules/ultimate_texas_hold_em_progressive.pdf

Note: If the player has three of a kind or better, he always wins the trips bet—
even if he folds.
JB
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JB
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May 30th, 2013 at 9:05:32 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

Every casino I played at requires you to play the hand to qualify. The sim here pays without it for some reason.


I modeled it after Shufflemaster's demo, which treats the Trips bet as independent. Note how here I folded with a Flush but still got paid on the Trips bet:



Casinos probably disregard the official game rules in this respect because it benefits them to do so.
djatc
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May 30th, 2013 at 9:12:48 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Because the casinos you play at are apparently running the game wrong.

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/docs/game_rules/ultimate_texas_hold_em_progressive.pdf

Note: If the player has three of a kind or better, he always wins the trips bet—
even if he folds.



This was in Vegas, and I'm surprised at this because I played at 4 casinos that did not pay out if you fold. For future CYA situations always face up fold?
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
tringlomane
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May 30th, 2013 at 9:27:34 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

This was in Vegas, and I'm surprised at this because I played at 4 casinos that did not pay out if you fold. For future CYA situations always face up fold?



Well I would clarify the rule for sure, basically saying "I have a trips winner but I want to fold; do I still get paid on trips if I fold?" Because if you don't, you have to call more than optimal.

If players typically muck cards to the dealer, they obviously can't pay you. Did you actually see anyone fold and not get paid on a qualifying trips hand? I would think this is a fairly uncommon scenario.
1arrowheaddr
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May 31st, 2013 at 6:18:09 AM permalink
If you want to fold and you have a trips winner, just tuck your cards under the trips bet.
Commish
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June 1st, 2013 at 8:24:51 AM permalink
Every place I have ever played this was a separate bet and paid if you folded except fot Celebrity cruise ships.
beachbumbabs
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June 15th, 2013 at 8:36:13 PM permalink
Everywhere I play this game you are allowed to fold and collect the trips bet, including NCL and the Victory Casino ship, but I haven't played this game in Vegas.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
RogerKint
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June 22nd, 2013 at 9:50:39 AM permalink
In Vegas, at the Plaza, (The same place that wouldn't pay the envy bonus on a mini royal) the dealers do not pay trips bets if the player does not play the hand through. If the player appeals to the pit, they may side with the player. I've seen it go both ways.

By the way, whenever another player bothers me about not making a trips bet, I let them know they can play on my spot if they split the win with me.

When a dealer keeps bothering me about it (because they're missing out on the large toke they usually get from winning trips bets), I want to respond with "Do they let children on the gaming floor? No? Then stop telling a grown man how to spend his money". The only problem is I don't have the balls to actually say that.
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camapl
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June 22nd, 2013 at 10:42:09 AM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

By the way, whenever another player bothers me about not making a trips bet, I let them know they can play on my spot if they split the win with me.



That's sounds like an awesome way to deal with (what I would call) overbearing players! Well done, sir!

For that matter, why not say the same to the overbearing dealers, too? Of course they cannot and will not place any bet, but it might get the same point across as the wonderfully smart-a** comment below.

Quote: RogerKint

"Do they let children on the gaming floor? No? Then stop telling a grown man how to spend his money".



I, too, would think it, but not say it ...unless I had had a few ...or new that the dealer had an extremely good sense of humor!
Expectation is the root of all heartache.
SanchoPanza
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June 22nd, 2013 at 4:35:13 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

In Vegas, at the Plaza, (The same place that wouldn't pay the envy bonus on a mini royal) the dealers do not pay trips bets if the player does not play the hand through. If the player appeals to the pit, they may side with the player. I've seen it go both ways.

That is preposterous. Doesn't have house have a gaming guide that explains the actual little playing rules?
Ibeatyouraces
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June 22nd, 2013 at 5:13:30 PM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
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June 22nd, 2013 at 5:24:35 PM permalink
Quote: camapl

That's sounds like an awesome way to deal with (what I would call) overbearing players! Well done, sir!

For that matter, why not say the same to the overbearing dealers, too? Of course they cannot and will not place any bet, but it might get the same point across as the wonderfully smart-a** comment below.

I, too, would think it, but not say it ...unless I had had a few ...or new that the dealer had an extremely good sense of humor!



While I understand how frustrating it is to deal with moronic dealers floormen, it generally avails us little to get into altercations with floor personnel. A lot of casinos have DTG's (Director of table games) who implement new game rules very arbitrarily via "The Rule Dartboard," for lack of a better description. Many floormen and dealers are "out to lunch" on doing things right on details they should have gotten right.

I think a good idea that'll make a difference is to contact the right person at the casino operator and/or the table games person at the distributor. Let them know what's going on, on what's wrong and isn't working. Every time a casino improperly operates a game, the distributor looks bad. The game may lose customers and get pulled from the floor, leaving the distributor with a bad reputation for its game, and loss of income. We take it seriously. 10% of my work consists of correcting things along the lines of "they did WHAT at the Chief Wild Eagle Casino? That hurt OUR game AND get it pulled! Here are the procedures, have Dean and Bobby set up training, or contact them on correct product procedures." Some Customers are as dangerous for a product as the best efforts of the competitors are.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Hunterhill
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June 22nd, 2013 at 5:59:25 PM permalink
This is similar to when 3card poker was new. If you lost with a straight or higher many places would not pay the ante bonus without a fight.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Paigowdan
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June 22nd, 2013 at 9:13:06 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

This is similar to when 3card poker was new. If you lost with a straight or higher many places would not pay the ante bonus without a fight.


Yup, totally a "textbook fine point" thing. Respect those who get it right, - and most do.

And expect little from grind-house dealers and floormen. They're human, sometimes below human, and they make mistakes. To let any moron trouble your higher well-being is beneath you. We need to take this attitude whenever walking into a casino. I certainly had, being a dice dealer for seven years in this town as a job. In fact, I swear by this posture.

Many dealers should give it the benefit of the doubt that they're wrong, and give it a "customer service opportunity" ANTE bonus. The floormen may make the wrong calls nonetheless. Imagine what the dealers have to go through with these floormen and pit bosses as their supervisors.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MonkeyMonkey
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June 24th, 2013 at 10:14:00 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

This is similar to when 3card poker was new. If you lost with a straight or higher many places would not pay the ante bonus without a fight.



I still have that argument with some floor supervisors.

Also, speaking of 3CP, I once had a player put us up for $5 on the Ante and PairPlus. He got a straight flush. The floor wanted to refuse us the $30 tip from the ante (ante + ante bonus) because he didn't back it up with another $5 dealer bet on the Play.
Paigowdan
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June 24th, 2013 at 11:36:40 AM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I still have that argument with some floor supervisors.

Also, speaking of 3CP, I once had a player put us up for $5 on the Ante and PairPlus. He got a straight flush. The floor wanted to refuse us the $30 tip from the ante (ante + ante bonus) because he didn't back it up with another $5 dealer bet on the Play.


This is petty, - and a good way to alienate your own crew. Granted, it is a slight AP play when the player's hand is less than KQ, but on a straight flush?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MonkeyMonkey
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June 24th, 2013 at 4:43:26 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

This is petty, - and a good way to alienate your own crew. Granted, it is a slight AP play when the player's hand is less than KQ, but on a straight flush?



The thing that struck me is that there had never been a problem with such dealer bets before. Granted they were usually only a dollar and they usually didn't win, but still.

Also, FWIW, the player was playing blind, and had been doing so all night, so it was pretty obvious that he wasn't "backing it up". You'd think if there was an issue it could have been addressed before there was a nice winning hand on the table.

All was well in the end, they let us have it.
Hunterhill
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June 24th, 2013 at 5:34:39 PM permalink
At a casino I won`t name, they let the players bet for the dealer on Mississippi stud after the players look at their hands. So the player does not have to make an ante dealer bet,they just bet on 3rd,4th,and 5th street after they know they have a push or better.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
MonkeyMonkey
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June 24th, 2013 at 5:37:10 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

At a casino I won`t name, they let the players bet for the dealer on Mississippi stud after the players look at their hands. So the player does not have to make an ante dealer bet,they just bet on 3rd,4th,and 5th street after they know they have a push or better.



Wow... want to PM me the info, I could see changing my venue for the right opportunity. :)
Hunterhill
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June 24th, 2013 at 6:29:04 PM permalink
No this is just for dealer bets.The player still has to make his ante bet before the cards are dealt,so there is not a player advantage.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
MonkeyMonkey
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June 24th, 2013 at 6:31:09 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

No this is just for dealer bets.The player still has to make his ante bet before the cards are dealt,so there is not a player advantage.



Being a dealer that's what I'm primarily interested in. :)
Ibeatyouraces
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June 24th, 2013 at 6:44:34 PM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Hunterhill
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June 24th, 2013 at 6:51:42 PM permalink
Ya they can`t lose,worst case is a push.I still can`t get over that they allow this.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
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