Poker Etiquette
February 25th, 2013 at 7:59:01 PM
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If you're at a poker table and say you buy in for x dollars. Suppose you win a hand. Are you allowed to take chips off the table to reduce you stack at risk (pocketing)? Or do you actually have to physically leave and buy back in again?
February 25th, 2013 at 8:02:24 PM
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you can't put the chips into your pocket. as for leaving and returning, that would be really ugly, not to mention the waiting line.
February 25th, 2013 at 8:30:21 PM
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Whether you win or not, once you're dealt into your first hand, you can't take any significant amount of chips off unless you are leaving entirely.
"Significant" You CAN pocket a souvenir chip, as well as pay for table service food or massages out of your chips. These are deemed insignificant, and encouraged by the casino.
"Leaving entirely" Most casinos have a rule that if you return within a specific time period (90 minutes is typical), you must buy in for at least the amount you took off the table.
The reason is simple: If you win a hand, the loser has a right to win them back if you're still seated.
It's not the dealers job to track who has won or not, which is why the rule goes into effect immediately.
For more about this and other poker room introductory info, read my post and thread:
Introduction to poker in a Casino Poker Room
"Significant" You CAN pocket a souvenir chip, as well as pay for table service food or massages out of your chips. These are deemed insignificant, and encouraged by the casino.
"Leaving entirely" Most casinos have a rule that if you return within a specific time period (90 minutes is typical), you must buy in for at least the amount you took off the table.
The reason is simple: If you win a hand, the loser has a right to win them back if you're still seated.
It's not the dealers job to track who has won or not, which is why the rule goes into effect immediately.
For more about this and other poker room introductory info, read my post and thread:
Introduction to poker in a Casino Poker Room
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 25th, 2013 at 10:42:37 PM
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Quote: AsswhoopermcdaddyIf you're at a poker table and say you buy in for x dollars. Suppose you win a hand. Are you allowed to take chips off the table to reduce you stack at risk (pocketing)? Or do you actually have to physically leave and buy back in again?
I hate to say this but the FIRST time I played a cash game (I had played tournaments before this) I did exactly what you described. I was at a $100 buy in game and I won an all in hand and won $400+ and during the next hand I put two stacks ($200) in my jacket pocket. A couple of hands later I put another stack in my jacket pocket. No one said a word. A couple of hands later I had KK and went all in and won the hand with only about $100 on the table.
First, I would have won more had I kept all my money on the table.
Second, I later found out I broke a big rule -- but no one noticed.
But let me add that dealers are also not immune to making mistakes.
At that same table that night I am holding AJ and the board comes 9999K. Another player has A-ten. The dealer pushed the pot to me -- when it should have been a chopped pot as we both had quad nines with an Ace. I didn't know that was an error till weeks later, and no one caught the dealer's error either.
And just a few weeks ago the dealer at my table made another error awarding the pot to a player holding an ace, when there was a striaght on the board and it should have been a four-way chop. No one had any "money in" -- we had just called the BB for $3 each... so we didn't realize the mistake till after the next hand and just let it go.
February 26th, 2013 at 11:00:55 AM
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Pocketing chips is called 'Going South' and in a big game could cause a confrontation. Casinos generally don't allow it.
February 26th, 2013 at 11:19:52 AM
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Quote: slytherPocketing chips is called 'Going South' and in a big game could cause a confrontation. Casinos generally don't allow it.
+1
Going south is just bad all the way around...you don't give your opponents a chance to win their money back, and if the table was reversed, would you want your money to go away?
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
February 26th, 2013 at 12:09:23 PM
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I once got reprimanded from a player for giving the cocktail waitress two $1 chips in a 2/5 game. I laughed at the guy.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 26th, 2013 at 1:32:12 PM
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yea, pocketing is a no-no. You can get up and leave if you wish but around here the card rooms will not let you sit back down to the same game type as you just left, within an hours time frame. Your free to go to a different style of game (such as from no limit to limit or from holdem to omaha). I have seen players skirt these rules by wondering off for a few minutes then going to another no limit table for the same stakes.
Another improper etiquette fewer consider or seem to know is to play out the blinds. I see people win a big hand and then maybe fold one and then when they notice they are about to be the blind they decide to leave. God forbid they should be forced to stick $4 of that $100 they won, back onto the table.
Generally when I feel ready to go - I decide its time to go, and then wait for the blinds to pass me and play one last hand with the button and then Ill get up and leave once Im in late position again. If Im already in late maybe middle position Ill go ahead and go without waiting.
ALTHOUGH- there are times in no limit games I wish the players woudl be forced to pocket. Sometimes Ill sit down to a 1-1 or 1-2 no limit game and the buyin will be osmethign like 20-60 or 60-200 bucks and there will be one guy in the corner seat sitting there with 1,000+ .. me 200.. him 1K.. yea, chip bully scenario if ive ever seen one.
Another improper etiquette fewer consider or seem to know is to play out the blinds. I see people win a big hand and then maybe fold one and then when they notice they are about to be the blind they decide to leave. God forbid they should be forced to stick $4 of that $100 they won, back onto the table.
Generally when I feel ready to go - I decide its time to go, and then wait for the blinds to pass me and play one last hand with the button and then Ill get up and leave once Im in late position again. If Im already in late maybe middle position Ill go ahead and go without waiting.
ALTHOUGH- there are times in no limit games I wish the players woudl be forced to pocket. Sometimes Ill sit down to a 1-1 or 1-2 no limit game and the buyin will be osmethign like 20-60 or 60-200 bucks and there will be one guy in the corner seat sitting there with 1,000+ .. me 200.. him 1K.. yea, chip bully scenario if ive ever seen one.
"Although men flatter themselves with their great actions, they are not so often the result of a great design as of chance." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld
February 26th, 2013 at 1:36:18 PM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDyou don't give your opponents a chance to win their money back
This point I don't understand, at least from a strategical point of view. You could simply leave the table with the same result.
So if pocketing chips would give you a strategical advantage, you should obviously leave the table after a larger win - and in consequence always sit down as short stack.
February 26th, 2013 at 1:36:18 PM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDyou don't give your opponents a chance to win their money back
This point I don't understand, at least from a strategical point of view. You could simply leave the table with the same result.
So if pocketing chips would give you a strategical advantage, you should obviously leave the table after a larger win - and in consequence always sit down as short stack.
February 26th, 2013 at 2:27:15 PM
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Quote: MangoJThis point I don't understand, at least from a strategical point of view. You could simply leave the table with the same result.
So if pocketing chips would give you a strategical advantage, you should obviously leave the table after a larger win - and in consequence always sit down as short stack.
Yes, but I think in many places, you will have to sit down the same stack size unless you leave the table for a significant period of time (an hour or more), so this effectively ruins your gaming experience.
March 5th, 2013 at 10:32:32 AM
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Quote: MangoJThis point I don't understand, at least from a strategical point of view. You could simply leave the table with the same result.
So if pocketing chips would give you a strategical advantage, you should obviously leave the table after a larger win - and in consequence always sit down as short stack.
From a strategic perspective, most writers and players I know believe having a big stack gives you an advantage in NL poker. You shouldn't be taking money off the table. However, if you do have more money on the table than you are willing to risk, it's time to take a lunch break.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
March 5th, 2013 at 10:47:24 AM
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People don't like short stacks. That's just it.
A short stack forces everyone to alter their strategy, which people don't like to do.
A short stack forces everyone to alter their strategy, which people don't like to do.
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March 5th, 2013 at 11:08:01 AM
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Quote: dwheatleyFrom a strategic perspective, most writers and players I know believe having a big stack gives you an advantage in NL poker.
I actually think a short stack gives you an advantage - because it will make the game asymetrical for your opponents. If you are short stack, you don't care about the stack size of the other players. The other player however have to fight on two fronts: the proper play aganst the short stack, and the proper play against the other stacks. I don't think it is that hard to imagine, which strategy is easier.
March 5th, 2013 at 11:22:04 AM
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I always wait to leave until I am the big blind next hand.
March 5th, 2013 at 11:22:07 AM
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Quote: MangoJI actually think a short stack gives you an advantage - because it will make the game asymetrical for your opponents. If you are short stack, you don't care about the stack size of the other players. The other player however have to fight on two fronts: the proper play aganst the short stack, and the proper play against the other stacks. I don't think it is that hard to imagine, which strategy is easier.
Agreed. However, the game ebbs and flows. Large stacks have many more options which is why players generally prefer to play with them.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
March 18th, 2013 at 9:03:06 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonI hate to say this but the FIRST time I played a cash game (I had played tournaments before this) I did exactly what you described. I was at a $100 buy in game and I won an all in hand and won $400+ and during the next hand I put two stacks ($200) in my jacket pocket. A couple of hands later I put another stack in my jacket pocket. No one said a word. A couple of hands later I had KK and went all in and won the hand with only about $100 on the table.
I totally agree with this guy. I played my first real big-boy hand at a 1-2NL table and I consistently took $25 out of my winnings to pocket. Now, I am told that this is "going south" and a dirty thing. Ok, fine, obviously the poker world has its rules from long ago but I don't get it.
First, I could leave at anytime. Second, I am limiting my exposure to going all in which is good for me and also limiting the amount I can go all in against someone else, making them less exposed as well. Third, some poker intro sites have said, you don't have to put all your initial buy in chips on the table. If you don't have to put your initial buy in on the table and you can leave, then why can't you just control your stack size to a comfortable bet? Why? "Because you won it and people have the right to win it back?" Whatever, you lost those chips, I lost those chips, I choose to only have $100 in play at any one time, if you want more action from me, sorry.
Is it also bad form to add chips to your pile after you lost a big hand?
And sure, I understand that changing your stack size in the middle of a hand is bad, but between hands? not so much. And that if I was at a big money buy in table, then maybe this would be very bad form, but at a sit and go for low stakes? Come on, tex, you need to lighten up.
But now I feel bad that this is a bad thing, I may ask the people there next time I go about the actual rules.
March 18th, 2013 at 10:16:10 AM
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Quote: UTHfanIf you don't have to put your initial buy in on the table and you can leave, then why can't you just control your stack size to a comfortable bet? Why? "Because you won it and people have the right to win it back?"
No.
Poker today is played with table stakes - you can't stake or be required to stake more than you have on the table.
This hasn't always been the case. Used to be that there was no such limit; if you couldn't cover a bet, you had to fold. AA with $90 stack vs 72o with $100 stack? Got to fold. You did not have the luxury of choosing to only have $so.many in play; all bets had to be covered or rejected by folding.
The drawbacks of such a system are obvious. You either had the big stack bully everyone around or everyone going into the red on a regular basis. Partially covered bets, side pots and only wining, per player, what you put in the pot, is a later innovation designed to solve that problem of big stack power and constant debts. It does not equate to adding stack size manipulation as a dynamic element of the game, only protects players from dropping below zero.
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March 18th, 2013 at 10:37:55 AM
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Well, you learn something new everyday. And maybe newbie ratholing is just an amateurish thing to do anyway.
March 18th, 2013 at 12:42:46 PM
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P90 -
Thanks. It never occurred to me that this rule is an off-shoot of the relatively modern Table Stakes rule, but it makes perfect sense.
On a related note, check out "Big hand for a little lady." It's an old western poker movie, where the novice little lady takes her cards to the local bank owner to get a loan to cover the bet. Great example of the pre-Table Stakes days. Great movie too.
Thanks. It never occurred to me that this rule is an off-shoot of the relatively modern Table Stakes rule, but it makes perfect sense.
On a related note, check out "Big hand for a little lady." It's an old western poker movie, where the novice little lady takes her cards to the local bank owner to get a loan to cover the bet. Great example of the pre-Table Stakes days. Great movie too.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2015 at 11:42:12 AM
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Locking down a seat after losing a stack.
Seen this abused and it peeves me a bit
Had a guy next to me lose his stack.
He was frustrated, told the dealer he would be back.
He never came bwck, seat stayed empty 90 min bfore they gave it to another player.
Once had a player go broke and locked down a seat so he could go home and get more money.
He did come back but the seat was empty for an hour.
Seen this abused and it peeves me a bit
Had a guy next to me lose his stack.
He was frustrated, told the dealer he would be back.
He never came bwck, seat stayed empty 90 min bfore they gave it to another player.
Once had a player go broke and locked down a seat so he could go home and get more money.
He did come back but the seat was empty for an hour.
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
May 30th, 2015 at 12:11:15 PM
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Google "poker short stack strategy". Skip the articles about tournament play. You want cash game info. This worked much better in the days of the huge online poker sites since it was so easy to leave one table and get back in at another table.
It's a winning strategy without knowing anything about poker. Live casino game players don't like it and you can't get back in another game easily.
It's a winning strategy without knowing anything about poker. Live casino game players don't like it and you can't get back in another game easily.
May 30th, 2015 at 12:20:58 PM
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Quote: cyberbabbleGoogle "poker short stack strategy". Skip the articles about tournament play. You want cash game info. This worked much better in the days of the huge online poker sites since it was so easy to leave one table and get back in at another table.
It's a winning strategy without knowing anything about poker. Live casino game players don't like it and you can't get back in another game easily.
I wouldn't say they know anything about poker. If they really know nothing, they won't be able to win doing this. It's just a different way to play the game that just really annoys people that like to play with a deeper stack.
I'm not even sure if the person he described is one of those people. If he is they shouldn't let him lock the seat up.
May 30th, 2015 at 2:42:44 PM
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In casino poker, people that buy in to the lowest level no limit games for the minimum are nearly always inexperienced players that want to cap their losses. This is OK to the regulars since they usually are weak players. They are not people trying to win with a short stack strategy. However the regulars would prefer people to buy in for more.
There is a simple set of rules for playing short stack strategy in online NL. It was a winning strategy during the Pokerstars/Fulltilt days when it was easy to quit a game and start over at a different table immediately. Not so much now.
A few years ago there were serious discussions at 2+2 about the idea that NL holdem is a flawed game because such an easy strategy can win. Some people were advocating a switch to other games.
There is a simple set of rules for playing short stack strategy in online NL. It was a winning strategy during the Pokerstars/Fulltilt days when it was easy to quit a game and start over at a different table immediately. Not so much now.
A few years ago there were serious discussions at 2+2 about the idea that NL holdem is a flawed game because such an easy strategy can win. Some people were advocating a switch to other games.
May 4th, 2016 at 10:08:19 AM
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Quote: cyberbabbleGThis worked much better in the days of the huge online poker sites since it was so easy to leave one table and get back in at another table.
It's a winning strategy without knowing anything about poker. Live casino game players don't like it and you can't get back in another game easily.
It will still work in the sense of being +EV, but if you double up, you're not nearly as shortstacked at that point, so then you have to either leave or try to play well with a more normal stack.
May 13th, 2016 at 3:21:08 PM
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What I think is weird is that You can tip/pay the cocktail waitress from your chip stack and can also pay a masseuse which is depleting much more from your stack. I guess those are the only exceptions.
May 13th, 2016 at 4:27:19 PM
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Not weird at all, Some players buy in for whatever cash they have at hand. Plus who wants to pull out a large bill and ask for change. Plus it's ok to tip the ugly dealer with a chip, why not the pretty lady ?
May 15th, 2016 at 10:14:22 AM
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Quote: spr1000What I think is weird is that You can tip/pay the cocktail waitress from your chip stack and can also pay a masseuse which is depleting much more from your stack. I guess those are the only exceptions.
I'm surprised about the masseuse thing because I would think those are decently expensive. The tips thing makes sense because it's such a small amount of money it would be silly for anyone to complain you only have $262 instead of $263.
May 15th, 2016 at 1:00:02 PM
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Not really. A masseuse at a spa can get pricey quickly. Poker massages are typically $20 for a 15 minute back rub. That's no big deal. Besides, table-side meals can easily cost more than $20...Quote: MrGoldenSunI'm surprised about the masseuse thing because I would think those are decently expensive.
It's all "at the poker table" expenses. And reasonably inexpensive. You CAN'T take a couple chips to cash them so you can go to a restaurant, even if you're planning on bringing the food back to the table.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 15th, 2016 at 9:00:35 PM
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I would have thought they might complain about $20, but I guess they wouldn't complain if you tipped the dealer $20. I would guess the massages are more common at bigger games anyway where $20 is a smaller part of the stack.
May 15th, 2016 at 9:17:49 PM
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Quote: MrGoldenSunI would have thought they might complain about $20, but I guess they wouldn't complain if you tipped the dealer $20. I would guess the massages are more common at bigger games anyway where $20 is a smaller part of the stack.
When are they going to get massages for video poker players? That's a slam-dunk.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 16th, 2016 at 1:46:05 AM
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I get massages all the time in 2-5 and 5-10 games but usually come out of pocket- I have taken 60-80 of the tables thought for them sometimes no one said anything
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