AP: At What Cost?
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozI know at least one property is no longer the same level of offers. It's possible the others are no longer off the charts
Since the "off the chart" offers are no longer available, then please provide a summary of what pre-covid conditions existed.
That would be help understand what professionals consider off the chart level of offers to be.
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Off the charts isn't my term.
I'm not concerned with off the charts offers. As a professional I am only concerned with my profit margin.
Getting fifty thousand dollars in offers that cost me $55,000 to get is off the charts offers but not what I consider a professional move.
Getting $2000 in offers that cost me $500 is what I am looking for.
I just threw those numbers out as examples. Not citing specific locations.
Quote: darkozOff the charts isn't my term.
Then what were you referring to when you wrote this...?
Quote: darkozIt's possible the others are no longer off the charts
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozOff the charts isn't my term.
Then what were you referring to when you wrote this...?Quote: darkozIt's possible the others are no longer off the charts
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I was referring to whatever you defined it as.
Quote: darkozI was referring to whatever you defined it as.
MDawg-level comps were generated in Biloxi from $10K coin-in?
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozI was referring to whatever you defined it as.
MDawg-level comps were generated in Biloxi from $10K coin-in?
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Quote: coachbelly
Well that's tutti's term, I'll stipulate that he can define it.
You stipulated that Tutti defines off the charts offers.
So is it MDawg level offers or what Tutti defines.
Closing in on worst thread ever.
Quote: darkozYou stipulated that Tutti defines off the charts offers.
So is it MDawg level offers or what Tutti defines.
We don't have tutti's definition, so until he returns, you can stipulate to my definition or your own...
Quote: darkozGetting fifty thousand dollars in offers that cost me $55,000 to get is off the charts offers
So what are you referring to below?
Which Biloxi properties have or had off the chart offers for $10K coin-in?
Quote: darkozI am aware of what all the pre-covid offers were for $10,000 coin-in at all the Biloxi properties.
I know at least one property is no longer the same level of offers. It's possible the others are no longer off the charts
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozYou stipulated that Tutti defines off the charts offers.
So is it MDawg level offers or what Tutti defines.
We don't have tutti's definition, so until he returns, you can stipulate to my definition or your own...Quote: darkozGetting fifty thousand dollars in offers that cost me $55,000 to get is off the charts offers
So what are you referring to below?
Which Biloxi properties have or had off the chart offers for $10K coin-in?Quote: darkozI am aware of what all the pre-covid offers were for $10,000 coin-in at all the Biloxi properties.
I know at least one property is no longer the same level of offers. It's possible the others are no longer off the charts
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Which off the charts offers are you referring too?
For example, if you got zero offers, those are technically off the chart.
Now if it's on the chart, those are easier to describe.
Quote: darkoz[Which off the charts offers are you referring too?
Just to be clear, I'm asking about off the chart offers in Biloxi for $10K coin-in.
Whatever you think that is will be noted.
My definition is MDawg-level offers.
You ruled that out, tutti is on time-out, so use your own definition.
If you need to lean on technicalities, then use them.
Or be genuine...you could try that.
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkoz[Which off the charts offers are you referring too?
Just to be clear, I'm asking about off the chart offers in Biloxi for $10K coin-in.
Whatever you think that is will be noted.
My definition is MDawg-level offers.
You ruled that out, tutti is on time-out, so use your own definition.
If you need to lean on technicalities, then use them.
Or be genuine...you could try that.
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Hard rock, Imperial Palace, Harrah's were good offers.
Golden Nugget, the Palace and Beau Rivage were not.
IMO.
What offers did you get?
Quote: MuffcabbageCome on Dark Oz, you tell allan mendalson your moves so he can quit his krap job and play for a living, e mail him pm him whisper it to him do whatever you guys do on this site, telling 1 extra head isnt gonna bust ur balls in the a.p world now if his wife tells her friends then i get it so have about it Darky? tell him the bankroll the game to play the casino and all details please,.
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Welcome to the forum.
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozIf you define off the charts as MDawg level then no, those comps aren't available for $10k coin in.
Off the chart is tutti's term.
Can I expect you to make a declaration, should he return and explain what "off the chart" means?
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I am back. My "off the chart" comment is slang. I was basically comparing my offers (pre-covid) to some offers posted from members of Vegas offers which are miniscule in comparison.
My total play per three night stay probably averaged around $3,000 (slot + table). I would receive free air and ground transportation plus RFB plus golf . I have a friend who did play slots and probably her play averaged $7,000 per stay. She received at least 4 fully paid cruises for two. To me, that is "off the chart." Based on those offers, I believe that $10k of slot play would produce at least what I previously received if not more. But since I will not be playing at that level, I will probably never know.
Shall we move on?
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigym
My total play per three night stay probably averaged around $3,000 (slot + table). I would receive free air and ground transportation plus RFB plus golf . I have a friend who did play slots and probably her play averaged $7,000 per stay. She received at least 4 fully paid cruises for two. To me, that is "off the chart." Based on those offers, I believe that $10k of slot play would produce at least what I previously received if not more. But since I will not be playing at that level, I will probably never know.
Shall we move on?
tuttigym
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Can I ask how you're figuring your $3000 and her $7000 numbers? Walk in with $3000 (or $7000), walk out without it?
Quote: DieterQuote: tuttigym
My total play per three night stay probably averaged around $3,000 (slot + table). I would receive free air and ground transportation plus RFB plus golf . I have a friend who did play slots and probably her play averaged $7,000 per stay. She received at least 4 fully paid cruises for two. To me, that is "off the chart." Based on those offers, I believe that $10k of slot play would produce at least what I previously received if not more. But since I will not be playing at that level, I will probably never know.
Shall we move on?
tuttigym
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Can I ask how you're figuring your $3000 and her $7000 numbers? Walk in with $3000 (or $7000), walk out without it?
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The $$$ amount was the estimated total of play during the stay basically "coin-in." The resultant profit or loss was not part of the equation. As an aside, I have no idea how the comps were calculated. I did feel extremely fortunate. My friend played slots alot though and was not a big winner to the best of my knowledge.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymQuote: DieterQuote: tuttigym
My total play per three night stay probably averaged around $3,000 (slot + table). I would receive free air and ground transportation plus RFB plus golf . I have a friend who did play slots and probably her play averaged $7,000 per stay. She received at least 4 fully paid cruises for two. To me, that is "off the chart." Based on those offers, I believe that $10k of slot play would produce at least what I previously received if not more. But since I will not be playing at that level, I will probably never know.
Shall we move on?
tuttigym
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Can I ask how you're figuring your $3000 and her $7000 numbers? Walk in with $3000 (or $7000), walk out without it?
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The $$$ amount was the estimated total of play during the stay basically "coin-in." The resultant profit or loss was not part of the equation. As an aside, I have no idea how the comps were calculated. I did feel extremely fortunate. My friend played slots alot though and was not a big winner to the best of my knowledge.
tuttigym
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Those numbers fall in line with my experience. Again pre-covid.
As I said before, "off the charts" is relative. MDawg gets huge offers but in return for delivering huge play.
To me those are NOT off the chart offers. They are offers commensurate with his level of action.
A person who spends a quarter million on a Lamborghini has not gotten an off the charts deal or offer, he has simply got what he paid for.
Tutti said $10,000 coin-in gets off the charts offers and is defining that as offers for ticket items in excess of what one would expect. And in that definition I agree.
Quote: billryanWhat he fails to realize is the offers that are being exploited are not based on normal play. They are offers given to new customers that spend heavy their first visit or first marketing cycle. Comparing them to regular offers makes no sense.
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You don't have to be a new customer and I can get those same offers even with prior play whether recently or even with play from several years ago
This is why it's clear you don't fully understand the AP of multicarding.
Quote: darkozQuote: billryanWhat he fails to realize is the offers that are being exploited are not based on normal play. They are offers given to new customers that spend heavy their first visit or first marketing cycle. Comparing them to regular offers makes no sense.
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You don't have to be a new customer and I can get those same offers even with prior play whether recently or even with play from several years ago
This is why it's clear you don't fully understand the AP of multicarding.
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Okay. I really have no interest in further engaging with you so whatever you say will be simply given a response of okay.
Quote: billryanQuote: darkozQuote: billryanWhat he fails to realize is the offers that are being exploited are not based on normal play. They are offers given to new customers that spend heavy their first visit or first marketing cycle. Comparing them to regular offers makes no sense.
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You don't have to be a new customer and I can get those same offers even with prior play whether recently or even with play from several years ago
This is why it's clear you don't fully understand the AP of multicarding.
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Okay. I really have no interest in further engaging with you so whatever you say will be simply given a response of okay.
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You are upset because I just explained something you didn't understand?
Okay!
Quote: billryanWhat he fails to realize is the offers that are being exploited are not based on normal play. They are offers given to new customers that spend heavy their first visit or first marketing cycle. Comparing them to regular offers makes no sense.
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What you fail to realize is that if someone were to agree with you, you all would be wrong.
tuttigym
Quote: darkozYou don't have to be a new customer and I can get those same offers
This is why it's clear you don't fully understand the AP of multicarding.
Golf and cruises?
Please tell me you're not basing your self-appointed title of "most feared" on offers of golf and cruises.
$1K slot coin-in per day is worth 200 tier credits (points) and 200 reward credits (comps) at Harrahs.
That's at a property whose offers you named as "good".
Has there been some kind of misunderstanding?
Quote: billryan$1000K? Is that a typo?
yes
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozYou don't have to be a new customer and I can get those same offers
This is why it's clear you don't fully understand the AP of multicarding.
Golf and cruises?
Please tell me you're not basing your self-appointed title of "most feared" on offers of golf and cruises.
$1K slot coin-in per day is worth 200 tier credits (points) and 200 reward credits (comps) at Harrahs.
That's at a property whose offers you named as "good".
Has there been some kind of misunderstanding?
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Of course I can get the golf and cruises. I just don't use them.
Do you actually suggest a patron would be offered golf and cruises without accompanying freeplay?
Please tell me that's not what you suggested.
EDIT: You mentioned tier credits and comp dollars. If you think that's what a good AP is about you really are misinformed.
Quote: darkozDo you actually suggest a patron would be offered golf and cruises without accompanying freeplay?
I've made no suggestion regarding freeplay.
This is the first mention of freeplay.
I expected it to be included in the list of offers generated by $1000 coin-in...but it wasn't.
Quote: darkozYou mentioned tier credits and comp dollars. If you think that's what a good AP is about you really are misinformed.
I made no claims about what I think a good AP is.
Comps and points were mentioned in the original discussion, below...maybe you weren't paying attention to the thread.
Quote: tuttigymif I could be sure I would only lose $100 on a $10k investment in a single session of slot play,
I would jump at the chance. The comps and points I could rack up at my favorite casino would be off the chart
Quote: coachbellyWhat casino would $10,000 coin-in generate off the chart comps and points?
How much. Where. When. For how many. What's covered and what's not. There are so many variables.
Unless there are specifics it's a meaningless debate.
Quote: AlanMendelsonUnless there are specifics it's a meaningless debate.
The participants can only evaluate the information provided,
the peanut gallery can opine on whether or not the debate is meaningful to them.
Carry on.
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozYou mentioned tier credits and comp dollars. If you think that's what a good AP is about you really are misinformed.
I made no claims about what I think a good AP is.
Comps and points were mentioned in the original discussion, below...maybe you weren't paying attention to the thread.Quote: tuttigymif I could be sure I would only lose $100 on a $10k investment in a single session of slot play,
I would jump at the chance. The comps and points I could rack up at my favorite casino would be off the chartQuote: coachbellyWhat casino would $10,000 coin-in generate off the chart comps and points?
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Coach
You do understand the difference between COMPS and COMP DOLLARS?
I said I don't pay attention to COMP DOLLARS.
I suggest you actually read the post before making really silly answers.
I don't pay attention to COMP DOLLARS.
Quote: darkozI said I don't pay attention to COMP DOLLARS.
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Please explain this because with Total Rewards and all of its casinos "comp dollars" rule.
Perhaps I dont understand what you consider comp dollars?
I am familiar with MGM, Caesars, Stations and Boyd and all of your play is translated into points which become comp dollars.
Yes, even free play is determined by your play and free play is just another form of comp dollars.
I'm not criticizing your statement, but I am asking for clarification.
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkozI said I don't pay attention to COMP DOLLARS.
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Please explain this because with Total Rewards and all of its casinos "comp dollars" rule.
Perhaps I dont understand what you consider comp dollars?
I am familiar with MGM, Caesars, Stations and Boyd and all of your play is translated into points which become comp dollars.
Yes, even free play is determined by your play and free play is just another form of comp dollars.
I'm not criticizing your statement, but I am asking for clarification.
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I define comp DOLLARS as an amount you can use for shopping and other purchases.
That's separate from freeplay. Since I use other people players cards using their comp dollars for shopping is generally not possible. You usually have to show ID for comp dollars purchases.
Some casinos allow comp dollars to turn into freeplay. It's usually a small addition if possible.
Quote: darkozYou do understand the difference between COMPS and COMP DOLLARS?
Yes I do understand the difference...I was replying to tutti's claim about "off the chart points and comps"
I searched your posts in this thread, all the way back to when you first butted in.
I could not find the following quote...
Quote: darkozI said I don't pay attention to COMP DOLLARS.
Can you post a link to that quote?
This is to establish a baseline for the discussion, so that we can stipulate what was written,
and explore the veracity of claims presented as fact.
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozYou do understand the difference between COMPS and COMP DOLLARS?
Yes I do understand the difference...I was replying to tutti's claim about "off the chart points and comps"
I searched your posts in this thread, all the way back to when you first butted in.
I could not find the following quote...Quote: darkozI said I don't pay attention to COMP DOLLARS.
Can you post a link to that quote?
This is to establish a baseline for the discussion, so that we can stipulate what was written,
and explore the veracity of claims presented as fact.
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I am not on trial so I am not wasting time proving it.
I have said over many years I pay attention to freeplay. Never mentioned I pay attention to COMP DOLLARS.
Quote: darkozI am not wasting time proving it
Time spent making silly claims is your time wasted, unless you're willing to prove them.
I'm not aware of your cost-free willingness to prove any of your claims,
although we've seen your willingness to spend money in an attempt to disprove another's.
Wise up.
On the flip side, players should be vigilant about potentially being shortchanged on a payout or color-up. For some reason, three card poker dealers tend to be the worst - they don't always pay the ante bonus bet when it's due and sometimes even fail to pay the play bet when their hand qualifies. They also seem to be the dealers who feel the most compelled to harangue me for not placing side bets.
I don't bother explaining to dealers proffering bad advice why I don't make side bets. Nor do I bother to tip them.
1) Play at whatever slot is at a +EV state.Quote: tuttigymQuestions for the "real" AP's:
1. With $50 in slot play, which machine would you play and at what denomination level?
2. How often do you patronize your favorite casino?
3. What kinds of comps and $$$ offers do you receive on a monthly basis?
4. What do you estimate your "cost" to receive those offers?
5. If you get free slot play, what machines do you frequent and what denomination level do you play?
6. Can you provide some general advice regarding being AP that might enhance our gaming experiences?
tuttigym
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2) Once a week for 2 days:
I get freeplay m-th, and f-sun plus free hotel stay.
so stay th - fri to pick up the weekday and weekend freeplay in one swoop because I have fri free
3) $150 each comp period so $300 per week
4) gas cost + wear/tear on my car
5) As i said above, whatever +EV slot
6) Play for fun. don't play for a living because
a) competition
b) Losing $5k in 2 days hurts when +EV doesn't turn into +AV. Hurts even more and all that additional stress if you're doing this for a living
I've had a few -$5k weeks per year.
ie: Max betting Must Hits and not getting a Bonus and/or bonus sucked
If I was 100% confident that playing a machine was +EV, I would accept the risk of being on the wrong side of variance. Identifying +EV is easy on Ultimate X, but the slot progressives seem to require some testing and guesswork.
Quote: JackSpadeFinding a table with a sloppy dealer can be an advantage play. I've seen distracted dealers do things as ridiculous as let a losing bet stay on the table to see another hand. I think it would be unethical to try to confuse or intimidate a dealer into making a mistake. But I feel no particular obligation to correct a dealer error that goes in my favor.
On the flip side, players should be vigilant about potentially being shortchanged on a payout or color-up. For some reason, three card poker dealers tend to be the worst - they don't always pay the ante bonus bet when it's due and sometimes even fail to pay the play bet when their hand qualifies. They also seem to be the dealers who feel the most compelled to harangue me for not placing side bets.
I don't bother explaining to dealers proffering bad advice why I don't make side bets. Nor do I bother to tip them.
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Best way to get a dealer to shut up about side bets is tell them "Why is it any concern to you? It's not like YOU'RE going to get any money from it if I win!"
Part of their job is to promote side bets.
If you play craps, for example, the stickman is constantly pushing side bets. For example:
The point is six, came soft, bet it hard.
Point is 5, bet sister 9.
You don't need to say a word. Just play your game.
i agree.Quote: AlanMendelsonWhy be rude to the dealers?
Part of their job is to promote side bets.
If you play craps, for example, the stickman is constantly pushing side bets. For example:
The point is six, came soft, bet it hard.
Point is 5, bet sister 9.
You don't need to say a word. Just play your game.
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i think the dealers are trained to push side bets.
Quote: GundyThere is NO reason for a dealer to speak except to say, "Insurance?"
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When I go to a store to buy a pair of shoes the clerk will ask me if I need a belt or socks.
Is that a problem for you?
or “double on hard twelve!”Quote: GundyThere is NO reason for a dealer to speak except to say, "Insurance?"
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"Hit on Hard 17"Quote: Ace2or “double on hard twelve!”Quote: GundyThere is NO reason for a dealer to speak except to say, "Insurance?"
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how good is the count to pull off this move??
Since when does the Goodwill offer that kind of service?Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GundyThere is NO reason for a dealer to speak except to say, "Insurance?"
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When I go to a store to buy a pair of shoes the clerk will ask me if I need a belt or socks.
Is that a problem for you?
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Just kidding Alan.
Quote: AxelWolfSince when does the Goodwill offer that kind of service?Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: GundyThere is NO reason for a dealer to speak except to say, "Insurance?"
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When I go to a store to buy a pair of shoes the clerk will ask me if I need a belt or socks.
Is that a problem for you?
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Just kidding Alan.
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Actually what's happened to Goodwill Stores in the last few years is interesting.
They have become "outlets" for big chain stores and manufacturers with so much donated new clothing that it's rare that there is room for donated used clothing.
What you and I would bring to Goodwill is now likely sent out for bulk shipping overseas or for recycling.
Five years ago when I moved to Vegas from LA my friends told me to bring my donated items to the thrift stores run by the Jewish Homes For The Aged because they really appreciated donated goods and used them locally -- and not ship them overseas.
