Romes
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
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July 13th, 2017 at 2:54:10 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

This known as "structuring" and is illegal. This very practice has resulted in shutdowns of casinos while armed government agents collect and carry boxes of records out the door. A few weeks later, there's an announcement that significant fines are being imposed, and most importantly, gaming licenses are lost.

It's illegal on both ends.... It's illegal for the player to attempt to misrepresent their winings to the IRS (re:structuring) and it's also illegal for the casino to falsify it's reports to the IRS (because they'd have to lie about the jackpot essentially).
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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July 13th, 2017 at 3:52:07 PM permalink
Then the casinos and game manufacturers are already involved in what may be considered structuring.


There are games purposely set up to pay $1199. I'm not talking just Royals either. I have seen 4 of a kind and Str8 flushes on VP that pay 1199 and various slot machines set up like that.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MrV
MrV
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July 13th, 2017 at 5:53:09 PM permalink
Is it really "structuring?"

A quick google leads me to think that typically involves attempting to avoid the mandatory CTR on a $10K+ transaction by breaking it down into smaller deposits.

Think of it this way: player has the right to claim $1500, but if he chooses to accept less, where is the harm?

Can't the two of them have a meeting of the minds on something different than what he's entitled to?

Hello, freedom of contract.
"What, me worry?"
billryan
billryan 
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July 13th, 2017 at 6:04:48 PM permalink
That is avoiding taxes, that is evading taxes.
It's what you do and not what you say If you're not part of the future then get out of the way
RS
RS
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July 13th, 2017 at 6:11:30 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Is it really "structuring?"

A quick google leads me to think that typically involves attempting to avoid the mandatory CTR on a $10K+ transaction by breaking it down into smaller deposits.

Think of it this way: player has the right to claim $1500, but if he chooses to accept less, where is the harm?

Can't the two of them have a meeting of the minds on something different than what he's entitled to?

Hello, freedom of contract.


Actually, I definitely can see HOW this would be legal. I just read a VPFree post the other day which I thought was absolutely f'ing retarded, but it'll make a point here.

The guy said he was playing $1 denom VP, held two queens. A button got re-pressed or something, throwing away one queen on accident, and he got the next 4 RF cards and up came a $4k jackpot. This very "smart" player said -- no, only pay me $5, because that's what I should have gotten. They paid him his $5, supposebly, and that was that.

I have mis-held a two pair (like 5,5,6,9 instead of 5,5,6,6) and got paid the difference when I asked (difference was like $500). Although I've never gone from a regular-pay to W2G-pay, or vice versa, it seems like it's definitely been done.

Who knows, maybe I hit something for $1500. I tell the slot attendant I don't deserve it because I would have held a different card (or I would have picked a different penguin or whatever in the slot bonus round, but something happened and the wrong one got selected). He says oh no -- you get the $1500. I say no, no, I don't deserve it. Then we finally both agree, perhaps with management approval, that we should meet somewhere in the middle, and I should be paid $1199.


Not that this is something I would particularly want to do, because for one, I don't really care how many taxables I hit (to an extent) and I do my taxes however they're supposed to be done....and for two, could definitely end up in a "I'm technically right, but I'll get f'd on the deal anyway" situation. Plus, this only sounds like it would be worthwhile if you were someone who does not to file taxes at end of the year or at least someone who reports their income from gambling.


But yeah, there are versions of (I believe) white hot aces that pay $1199 instead of $1200 for four A's. Some VP machines have SF set to 239 credits on $5 machine ($1195). I've seen must-hits or something like that at some station casinos in the past, yup - you guessed it, must hit by $1199.99.


Although I ain't no lawyer, to me, seems like there's enough precedent there to say what MrV "suggested" above is A-O-K.
"should of played 'Go Fish' today ya peasant" -typoontrav
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
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July 13th, 2017 at 6:40:47 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I think that her point is that it isn't a truly random wheel. There are 22 spaces on a classic WoF slot, but the frequency of hits for the $1000 space isn't 1/22. Yeah, I know, who would have thunk it.

I thought I had read somewhere that in Nevada it WAS against gaming regulations to have a misleading visual representation of the odds, ie, the graphics should accurately reflect the $ 1000 award space by making it much skinnier than the others.

So, what do the gaming regulations in Nevada say about that, IF anything ?
I remember the thirty-five sweet goodbyes; When you put me on the Wolverine up to Annandale; It was still September When your daddy was quite surprised; To find you with the working girls in the county jail; I was smoking with the boys upstairs when I Heard about the whole affair;I said oh no William and Mary won't do
BobDancer
BobDancer
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July 13th, 2017 at 7:37:05 PM permalink
I generally prepare a list of questions and send them to the guest. They have the right to veto any of them, but they almost never do. But sometimes. It's not a "gotcha" kind of a show.

Richard thinks up marvelous off-the-cuff questions --- so we can easily get off the script. I usually give him free rein because his spontaneous questions are at least as good as my prepared ones.

We have never asked "what kind of a tree would you be," or any other out-of-the-blue questions. Our guests are there because they are expert at something --- and we are asking about their expertise.

Usually, anyway. Sometimes my "sense of humor" (about which people disagree whether it's actually funny or not) rears up and poses an off-the-wall follow-up question. (If you don't like my sense of humor, you're not alone, and you'll be about as successful getting me to change as Trump's advisors are in getting him off of Twitter!)

For instance, when we were interviewing "Kelly," who was Phil Ivey's partner during the edge sorting adventures, she mentioned it was better for her to play at night because she could see better. I followed up by saying that inside a casino you can't tell whether it's day or night because the lighting is the same all the time.

Kelly said she was like an owl and an owl's vision is sharper at night so it can find mice to eat in the dark. Being an unrepentant smart ass, I then asked her if she ate a lot of mice! Kelly was confused by the question, but everybody was laughing, including the two people Kelly had brought for moral support and, in the case of Laurie Chow, translation, so she let the question go and we continued with the interview.

I do have a courtroom joke to tell Bob N on the air next week. Knowing him, I think he'll like it. You'll have to wait for it.
BobDancer
BobDancer
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Thanks for this post from:
tringlomane
July 13th, 2017 at 7:56:08 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

I thought I had read somewhere that in Nevada it WAS against gaming regulations to have a misleading visual representation of the odds, ie, the graphics should accurately reflect the $ 1000 award space by making it much skinnier than the others.

So, what do the gaming regulations in Nevada say about that, IF anything ?



Nersesian has addressed this previously. If the picture on the machine represents some "normal" gambling something --- like a 6-sided die --- then each face of the die must have a 1-in-6 chance of appearing. Or if it looked like a roulette wheel complete with 36 numbers and one or two zeroes, they each spot must have an equal chance of coming up.

But if the depiction is something unique --- and the WOF wheel is unlike anything else in a casino --- then there is no requirement that each space appears equally likely.
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
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July 14th, 2017 at 3:29:15 AM permalink
When a Nevada bookmaker posts an off number, what are the criteria for them to get out of a bet once they have accepted it?

Here is the example that prompted this question. One of these two sides had to win and both paid + money. Would MGM have had to pay someone who bet both sides, or would they be off the hook since this is an obvious error?



In another case, an acquaintance bet on an outcome at a strip book. They had it listed at +800, while it was listed at about +150 at every other book. After it won, the manager haggled with him and got him to accept a payout somewhere in the middle. Could he have gotten the full amount? What if it was +8000?
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
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July 14th, 2017 at 6:51:16 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux



In another case, an acquaintance bet on an outcome at a strip book. They had it listed at +800, while it was listed at about +150 at every other book. After it won, the manager haggled with him and got him to accept a payout somewhere in the middle. Could he have gotten the full amount? What if it was +8000?



My understanding is the book can cancel the bet before the event but has to pay the listed price if the bet wasn't cancelled.

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