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OnceDear
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December 19th, 2015 at 3:54:57 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Darn, I forgot about those machines that make sure my anti rejection drugs for my kidney and pancreas transplants are spot on prescription strength.

And I need to add driverless cars to the robots that land on Mars and on a comet..


Absolutely nothing at all to do with Ballistics Everything to do with Alan not being able to follow a discussion.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
superrick
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December 19th, 2015 at 7:23:30 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

What about constructing a slide/ramp on a craps table in lieu of using a robot? It seems like this would be a quick and inexpensive way to test your hypothesis. If the dice could be released from a fixed height, wouldn't this insure a repeatable "throw" -- speed, launch angle & initial orientation would theoretically be the same each time.

I can also see some drawbacks: A ramp like this doesn't have the ability to impart much initial rotation to the dice (if that is something that is needed.) Also, once constructed, making changes to adjust angles & orientation to a ramp would be more difficult than making similar changes to a robot's motion.

Or has this already been tried? I don't pay too much attention to DI, though some of these threads can be entertaining.

Also, as someone who occasionally works with/programs robots, I can say that their repeatability/precision is definitely less than 100%. Personally, I believe that a robot would be a ploppy like the rest of us at a Craps table.

Although, Mr. Data seemed to do OK. ;)



Here is two videos that I did to show the dice only droping 6 " and rolling to the back wall that you wouldn't get the same results!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i29XrhcBYM8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TwGnLZsY3E&list=UUi_qsQYSKO72Yf43wHls1bw&index=202
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
dicesitter
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December 19th, 2015 at 7:31:01 AM permalink
badboynaz



I had shown Axel in my two online videos that can throw the dice in a way to limit
the effect of the back wall. I also showed you can limit the action of the dice after they
hit the table.

All of this is a waste of time because after they see it, they turn around and say no one
can do it, or if they can then prove it has an affect, then prove your a lifetime winner,
then prove you can win on any table you play on , then prove you can hit any
number you want to hit.

Craps is the only activity I have ever seen that no matter what you do it is never good enough
for those that cant. In the movie war games the computer said " silly game, the only way to win is
not to play" that's fits the discussion on here, if what your doing helps you win, go do it and
keep it to yourself, It is far easier to win on the table than prove anything on here.

Dicesetter
AlanMendelson
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December 19th, 2015 at 11:14:24 AM permalink
Quote: dicesitter



Craps is the only activity I have ever seen that no matter what you do it is never good enough
for those that cant.

Dicesetter



Perfectly said.
OnceDear
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December 19th, 2015 at 12:09:39 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Perfectly said.

And marriage. Don't forget marriage.
:)
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
AlanMendelson
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December 19th, 2015 at 12:39:00 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

And marriage. Don't forget marriage.
:)



Marriage is a wonderful thing. But I pity the poor slobs who are stuck in a bad marriage and can't afford to get out of it.
MrV
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December 19th, 2015 at 5:34:06 PM permalink
Quote: dicesitter

Craps is the only activity I have ever seen that no matter what you do it is never good enough
for those that cant. Dicesetter



At first glance this sounds relatively poignant, but upon reflection it devolves into gobbly-gook.

Just what are you trying to say?
"What, me worry?"
Elastoid
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December 19th, 2015 at 11:52:45 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

At first glance this sounds relatively poignant, but upon reflection it devolves into gobbly-gook.

Just what are you trying to say?



Sounds like he's arguing that dice setting takes a lot of skill and that those who lack the skill will refuse to believe that anyone actually can. Not agreeing with him, but his point made plenty of logical sense.

He also questions why anyone who can set dice would bother trying to prove it statistically real. My answer is, if you were able to do so, you'd likely make more money (or at least suffer less volatility) teaching others than you would actually playing.

If you posit (and I'm not yet sold on this) that dice setting can change the statistical probability of the roll... whether you work to prove it or not, it WILL eventually be proven. That's just how science works. WHEN it's proven, the person who does so will probably make a lot of money demonstrating it to others, while casinos make efforts to counter this practice. In short, if it's possible to prove, it'll be proven with or without you, and it'll be more lucrative to be the guy known for proving it, than to be the guy trying to implement it against the (now wise) house.
MathExtremist
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December 21st, 2015 at 2:56:39 PM permalink
Quote: Elastoid

If you posit (and I'm not yet sold on this) that dice setting can change the statistical probability of the roll... whether you work to prove it or not, it WILL eventually be proven. That's just how science works. WHEN it's proven, the person who does so will probably make a lot of money demonstrating it to others, while casinos make efforts to counter this practice. In short, if it's possible to prove, it'll be proven with or without you, and it'll be more lucrative to be the guy known for proving it, than to be the guy trying to implement it against the (now wise) house.

Except that it already happened, and the casino already did make efforts to counter the practice. You don't get to throw against a hard backboard anymore. From a return-on-investment standpoint, attempting to practice dice control is a terrible waste of time. If it's possible at all, it apparently takes months or years to master a particular physical technique intended to throw the dice in an advantageous way. It takes the casino less than 5 minutes to tell you to throw the dice so they bounce back further from the back wall, or pass the dice to the next shooter.

There have been several people who talk about minimizing the bounces and gently rolling to a stop touching the back wall. Yet the boxperson can simply say "throw harder or pass the dice" and all that effort is for naught. So why bother, even if it is possible? It's not like the casino isn't going to notice that your dice always just barely touch the back wall and be okay with it.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MrV
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December 21st, 2015 at 3:21:07 PM permalink
Devil's advocate: the crew might not complain if you tip them generously, but we all know that AP's don't tip.

Countermeasures would be easy for the casinos to implement and they'd be devastatingly effective.

DI=much ado about nothing
"What, me worry?"
djatc
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December 21st, 2015 at 6:04:40 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Marriage is a wonderful thing. But I pity the poor slobs who are stuck in a bad marriage and can't afford to get out of it.



Marry the 6 and 8 lay the 4 and 10
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
AxelWolf
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December 21st, 2015 at 6:50:14 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

Marry the 6 and 8 lay the 4 and 10

Are we talking looks or inches ?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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December 21st, 2015 at 6:54:20 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Except that it already happened, and the casino already did make efforts to counter the practice. You don't get to throw against a hard backboard anymore. From a return-on-investment standpoint, attempting to practice dice control is a terrible waste of time. If it's possible at all, it apparently takes months or years to master a particular physical technique intended to throw the dice in an advantageous way. It takes the casino less than 5 minutes to tell you to throw the dice so they bounce back further from the back wall, or pass the dice to the next shooter.

There have been several people who talk about minimizing the bounces and gently rolling to a stop touching the back wall. Yet the boxperson can simply say "throw harder or pass the dice" and all that effort is for naught. So why bother, even if it is possible? It's not like the casino isn't going to notice that your dice always just barely touch the back wall and be okay with it.

IF it was possible(IT'S NOT) It would work like card counting. Hop around, find weak management, go to other states etc etc.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
djatc
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December 21st, 2015 at 9:20:03 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Are we talking looks or inches ?



lol
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
RS
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December 21st, 2015 at 10:32:55 PM permalink
Any DI I've talked to (real life or forum)...

Me: What are your dice roll frequencies?
DI: depends on set
Me: any set.
DI: well my V-3-6 set aims for 6's and 8's
Me: Ok, how frequently do you roll a 6 or an 8 with that set? And rolling a 7?
DI: It's....the umm.....I'm aiming for 6's and 8's, not 7's!!
Me: Do you know what your edge is?
DI: My wha?
Me: What's your EV per roll? How much do you bet, what bets do you make? If you make a $100 hard 6 bet, what's your EV on that bet? If you don't bet that, do you know your EV for any other bet?
DI: It depends on if it hits or not, duhh.
Me: How frequently do you roll a 6?
DI: Depends what my set is
Me: Do you have any idea what the **** you're doing???????



This isn't proof DI doesn't work, but, I'd think if someone could influence the dice and were betting $$$$ on it, then they'd know some of these (what should be) very simple questions to answer. Kinda like Rob Singer. He doesn't know how frequently he wins, he doesn't know what his "expected" win is, he doesn't know how frequently he goes from level X to level Y. Same thing with DI's.

You talk to someone who actually knows what they're doing and they know exactly what all these values are. What's it worth per hour, what their edge is, their expected win, etc. Of course, some (few, rare) aren't so easy to figure out what the edge is or the hourly, but if you knew how they worked, you'd say the same thing I've said, "I don't know what my edge is, I don't know what my hourly rate is, or whatever else.....it's so strong and so good, even if you run awful, you're breaking even."
MathExtremist
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December 21st, 2015 at 10:47:11 PM permalink
I agree. I've never read a post, article, or book from anyone claiming to influence the dice that had any correct math in it. Everyone writes about SRR, probably because it seems intuitively related to winning the pass bet. Except it's actually not. SRR is simple to understand, easy to track, and totally useless as a measurement of player edge.

What's most curious is that nobody with a better understanding of the math has ever claimed they have an edge and credibly quantified it.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
AxelWolf
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December 21st, 2015 at 11:46:22 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

lol

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AlanMendelson
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December 22nd, 2015 at 12:41:52 AM permalink
All I care about is my SRR and now that I found a casino offering the Small, Tall, All bets I'm finally winning money at craps.

The longer I can avoid a 7 the better chance I have rolling the Small, Tall and All.
NokTang
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December 22nd, 2015 at 3:12:34 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

All I care about is my SRR and now that I found a casino offering the Small, Tall, All bets I'm finally winning money at craps.

The longer I can avoid a 7 the better chance I have rolling the Small, Tall and All.



Hi Alan, and Happy Holidays.

Why are you making jokes at Christmas time? Didn't you see the Miss Universe contest replay where the MC played a joke on Miss Columbia? How rude and crude and disgusting actually.

The Small, Tall, and All bets have long ago been debunked as have overwhelming house advantages. Stating the obvious also doesn't earn you any brownie points with this well educated and experienced group.

Cheers mate. You are usually good for a laugh, but not this morning. I see a man grabbing at straws.
AlanMendelson
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December 22nd, 2015 at 5:15:08 PM permalink
Yeah, I understand that the STA bets have these huge house edges. But I'm up about $7,000 playing craps at Bellagio over just three trips. Oh, that doesn't include the $31,005 progressive royal. That photo is on my forum.

Happy holidays.
MrV
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December 22nd, 2015 at 5:38:01 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Yeah, I understand that the STA bets have these huge house edges. But I'm up about $7,000 playing craps at Bellagio over just three trips. Oh, that doesn't include the $31,005 progressive royal. That photo is on my forum.

Happy holidays.



Merry Variance.
"What, me worry?"
AlanMendelson
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December 22nd, 2015 at 6:38:24 PM permalink
Of course it is all variance, but it's a funny kind of variance. Never had more than three passes on those "ALL" bets that I won. And the first time I made the "ALL" I had only one pass. In fact, I never had more than 3 passes at Bellagio in a single turn with the dice -- that means I would never have even had a 4-point FireBet winner if they had the FireBet there. Gotta love that variance.
BiloxiBill
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January 2nd, 2016 at 9:37:32 PM permalink
To answer your question: YES, the mathematical proof is that the dealer hands you the dice to throw. If you want an answer of NO, then you would never throw the dice.

What your asking is analogous to throwing paper airplanes in a hurricane. Can you predict where it will land and how far on EACH throw? NO, but a skilled paper airplane maker with practice in throwing them in Hurricanes can get a better average BUT he won't be able to tell you on the NEXT throw it will be good, or even on the NEXT 10 throws it will be good. He could tell you on AVERAGE, he throws better than less skilled throwers.

SO the problem isn't with HIS throws, it's with you trying to take advantage of his throws. For you to enjoy his better AVERAGE you will need to be with him every time he throws the dice over time. Not practicable, possible but not practicable. So the only advantage will be to him and no one else, maybe his wife but she probably lost his advantage in the slots. :P

EDIT: Will his advantage matter? Maybe, Maybe not. If he can break the statistical variance, yes. If not, no. But he still has a better advantage mathematically it just won't matter in the betting odds.

The problem with a real world test is that everything is not always equal. The dice will sometimes hit chips that are there one moment and gone the next, etc..., etc...

I'd say don't worry about HOW someone is shooting the dice but just look for the trends, they are apparent. In craps the come out throw forces you to follow a 7/11 trend. Ironically in Roulette people bet against the trends ever since they introduced those electronic boards. Genius on the casino's part. Trends don't change the odds however, it's just that trends happen. Craps just forces you to catch them because of the Come Out Roll unless you stop playing at the wrong moment. So if you're 'lucky' you'll catch one toward the end of your session.
Last edited by: BiloxiBill on Jan 2, 2016
starpower
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GlenG
April 6th, 2016 at 2:10:33 AM permalink
I think dice control is idiotic.
dicesitter
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April 8th, 2016 at 8:28:03 AM permalink
BiloxiBill





Best post I have ever seen on this board..... none even come close.

Thank you


dicesetter
Wizardofnothing
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April 8th, 2016 at 8:45:06 AM permalink
I'm willing to say that even if I was with you on every single throw that the results would not be better then any normal thrower.

The paper airplane is not a good analogy at all, for oh so many reasons
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MrV
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April 8th, 2016 at 11:54:28 AM permalink
Quote: BiloxiBill

a skilled paper airplane maker with practice in throwing them in Hurricanes can get a better average BUT he won't be able to tell you on the NEXT throw it will be good, or even on the NEXT 10 throws it will be good. He could tell you on AVERAGE, he throws better than less skilled throwers...SO the problem isn't with HIS throws, it's with you trying to take advantage of his throws.



Oops, big gap in logic there.

Your argument presupposes that it is axiomatic that "a skilled paper airplane maker with practice in throwing them in Hurricanes can get a better average" when in fact such a thing is not accepted as fact at all.

Seriously, you think people can develop skill at throwing paper airplanes during a hurricane?

You'd have better luck herding cats.
"What, me worry?"
Wizardofnothing
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April 8th, 2016 at 11:58:02 AM permalink
First time I laughed all day
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AxelWolf
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April 8th, 2016 at 1:26:50 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Oops, big gap in logic there.

Your argument presupposes that it is axiomatic that "a skilled paper airplane maker with practice in throwing them in Hurricanes can get a better average" when in fact such a thing is not accepted as fact at all.

Seriously, you think people can develop skill at throwing paper airplanes during a hurricane?

You'd have better luck herding cats.

Actually ..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
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April 8th, 2016 at 1:35:18 PM permalink
I am a skilled paper airplane maker and have practice throwing them in hurricanes.
Wizardofnothing
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April 8th, 2016 at 1:41:04 PM permalink
And I am a skilled cat herder I herd pussycats all the time
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
MrV
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April 8th, 2016 at 2:45:04 PM permalink
And I challenge both of you.

I am a random thrower / herder, and am willing to bet a bottle of MD 20/20 for the gustatory pleasure of all WoV members who come to witness the challenge / competition that your results will be no better than mine.

Of course, the date/venue won't be known til the last minute; it'll have to be held during hurricane season, of course.

With luck we might find a bunch of cats fleeing the oncoming hurricane surge, then we could do both challenges at the same time.
"What, me worry?"
MathExtremist
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April 8th, 2016 at 2:57:40 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

a bottle of MD 20/20 for the gustatory pleasure

...said nobody, ever...

Quote:

With luck we might find a bunch of cats fleeing the oncoming hurricane surge, then we could do both challenges at the same time.

Did this just turn into a cat-throwing contest?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MrV
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April 8th, 2016 at 3:03:13 PM permalink
If a challenger has herded all of the cats, would he have "pussied out" of the challenge?
"What, me worry?"
Wizardofnothing
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April 8th, 2016 at 3:13:44 PM permalink
Funny thing is in Vegas I herd more pussycats then anywhere else,
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GlenG
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Laymedown
February 5th, 2018 at 11:12:23 PM permalink
How many times can i say no?

I mean if there is a good dice crew on the game, you have to hit the back wall or youre losing the dice...once they touch the back wall, physics take over.
DeMango
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February 6th, 2018 at 4:07:50 AM permalink
Quote: GlenG

How many times can i say no?


Once should be enough. Welcome to the forum!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
Laymedown
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March 30th, 2018 at 1:10:43 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Funny thing is in Vegas I herd more pussycats then anywhere else,


I heard a few stories about you about herding and not just cats. Your a bad person.

On another note
MrV. if you'r talking about a challenge on who can roll dice, what is your record. Mine is over 50 and under 60 rolls before seven out.
Sorry for my many daily posts. I am a retired professional and I love to chat about gambling. I also enjoy reading and can't help but to reply to some fantastic articles.
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