Thread Rating:

kp
kp
Joined: Feb 28, 2011
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 422
February 6th, 2012 at 7:30:51 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I think kp is worried, all he ever talks about is somebody changing his mind.



I just don't want to miss it. I know one these days someone will win a debate on the Internet and I want to be there for the momentous occasion. Imagine if Snow White had given up after kissing nine horny toads before she found the tenth was to be her prince charming.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 434
  • Posts: 25333
February 6th, 2012 at 8:15:42 PM permalink
Quote: kp

I just don't want to miss it.
.



I've been on the net in chat rooms since
1992 and have never seen anybodies mind
changed. The point is discussion, not trying
to influence somebody into changing.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
  • Threads: 67
  • Posts: 4299
February 6th, 2012 at 9:50:10 PM permalink
Despite the merry-go-round of arguments in this epic thread, I would like to sincerely thank everyone for the discussion, especially Dan who stuck to his guns despite being thrown under the bus over and over. I don't agree with him, but I respect his opinion and appreciate the opportunity to see advantage casino play from a different perspective. And by that, I don't mean "the perspective of the casino operator," but rather the moral viewpoint that he has espoused in this thread. It's not something I have read before.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 434
  • Posts: 25333
February 6th, 2012 at 11:41:27 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

I don't mean "the perspective of the casino operator," but rather the moral viewpoint that he has espoused in this thread. It's not something I have read before.



Dan's viewpoint is the casinos viewpoint, he
just cleaned it up a little. The casino games
the public into believing they can win long
term, and when they get gamed back by AP's,
they have a tendency to over-react.

It reminds me of a story in American Roulette,
the roulette scammer book. They guy was
pastposting one time and a woman saw what
he did and she yelled out that he was cheating.
The pastposter got immediately furious with
her and screamed in her face to keep her f-ing
mouth shut. He was gaming the casino and she
got in his way and he hated her for it. The casino
games the public with misinformation and hates
AP's who game them back. Gamers hate being
gamed...
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 8294
February 7th, 2012 at 5:01:54 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The casino games
the public into believing they can win long
term



Really, Bob? I'd do a Wizard challenge and bet you on this one...
We ask 100 random people entering a LV strip casino if they expect to win 'long term' (your phrase), I bet you less than 30 say yes.
You on for that bet?
The public KNOWS they cannot win long term, with the exception of a small bunch of true APs.
They know the building didn't build itself...
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
February 7th, 2012 at 8:59:46 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Despite the merry-go-round of arguments in this epic thread, I would like to sincerely thank everyone for the discussion, especially Dan who stuck to his guns despite being thrown under the bus over and over. I don't agree with him, but I respect his opinion and appreciate the opportunity to see advantage casino play from a different perspective. And by that, I don't mean "the perspective of the casino operator," but rather the moral viewpoint that he has espoused in this thread. It's not something I have read before.


Wow....means a lot - seriously.
The moral view point - that I apply to everything - came from a very short Buddhist teaching that was used as a thought experiment I learned in the 1970's as a kid. It was a standard to apply, that I found simple and descrptively difficult to practice well without awareness. It was:
Everything to do, does it meet this criteria:
1. Is it true and fair (fair in the sense that you would be happy with the result of a situation regardless of what side your on, just that the true & fair action was done at all. This include such things as paying for car damage that you caused and could have gotten away with, but felt compelled to pay the $800 just to report and fix a stranger's car - when you could have run away and gotten away with it, AND would have insisted on it if the shoe was on the other foot. Other examples are saying "No, take the money back dealer, I did not win it by the result of the cards...")
2. Is it kind? (Kind in the sense that your neighbor might be a jerk, but you cannot shoot him for it.)
3. Is it necessary (does it effect the correct/right result? If an action is wrong and self-seeking, it might be more unnecessary than realized)
I looked around and said, "wow, there's quite a few of us completely incapable of practicing these principles." Then I worked in gaming and thought about these principles, and got amazed...


But I also notice that we have a LOT of players who go to the casino to have fun, and do not say:
1. It is an outrage that I got backed off....
2. It is an outrage that the floorman corrected a mistake that was actually not in my favor...
Instead say, "I'm here to play - get action. If I win I win, and if I don't, I refuse to sweat it or act like I was wronged or torture myself."

So I simplied it to its essence and practice this:
1. You don't play to win, you play to play under the best conditions and by the ground rules. You may win or you may lose, and if you break the rules to win, you really didn't win, and don't want it.
2. People who play to win instead of play-to-play don't go NEAR a casino - unless it's the poker room or a job in the casino, or for recreation.

As an example, Last night I had such a shameless shot taker on dice, it was laughable case in point...:
1. He says "$30 outside - high and the four and ten." I set him up, and announce, "Mr. xxx, you have a $10 four, a $10 ten, and $5 each on the five and nine. You are high on the 4 & 10." He looks at his action and is fine. Then a five is rolled, and I pay him $7. He says, "What? You CHEATER! You're supposed to pay me $14, as I am high on the 5 and 9." I say, "No, sir, you are high and the 4 and 10, as you requested. I announced it, You saw me set it up, and were FINE with it. You get paid $7."
2. Later he says, when the Point becomes 9: "$34 INSIDE!" Fine. I set up and announce: "You have a $10 five, and $12 each six and eight, $34 action. If you want to bet the nine, you can place the point, too." He did not. A winner 9 is rolled. He demands to get paid after I pay the other players, with a "but what about ME!" look on his face. At this point the stickman backs me up and says "We can't. You bet the 5, 6 & 8, but you did NOT bet the point. Sorry, we cannot pay you as you did not bet it. You wanna get paid on a bet, you have to make that bet."

This went on for an hour, each dealer had to put up with this.
He tried SO hard to get his juice not from the actual game - but from what petty theft he could get away with, as THE game for him. I see this dynamic in spades, and it gets mind-blowing and mind-numbing....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
1BB
1BB
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
February 7th, 2012 at 9:00:54 AM permalink
Casinos are the very definition of insidious. Deep down people really do think they can win, even when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If less than 30 say yes, I would question the honesty of some of the remaining 70.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
February 7th, 2012 at 9:04:56 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Casinos are the very definition of insidious. Deep down people really do think they can win, even when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If less than 30 say yes, I would question the honesty of some of the remaining 70.



It's obvious to anyone who ever lost that you can lose. Insidious? This is freakin' obvious.
People are responsible for their own handling of their recreational dollar without denial, or blaming of the obvious onto others, to include casinos.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 434
  • Posts: 25333
February 7th, 2012 at 12:00:59 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Really, Bob? I'd do a Wizard challenge and bet you on this one...
We ask 100 random people entering a LV strip casino if they expect to win 'long term' .



Been doing it for years, as I said earlier.
I ask slot players and over 90% say they
think they can get ahead and stay ahead.
Why on earth would they be there if they
knew the truth? Even had a guy so pissed
at me he wanted to meet me in the parking
lot. People are very fuzzy concerning what a casino
is all about. They just assume they can win long
term, they never really think about it.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 434
  • Posts: 25333
February 7th, 2012 at 12:12:36 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


So I simplied it to its essence and practice this:
1. You don't play to win, you play to play 2. People who play to win instead of play-to-play don't go NEAR a casino



C'mon Dan, everybody who goes to a casino is
there because they want to win. Just ask them.
They won't say they're there to have fun, or to
kill time, or lose. Playing to win is the only reason
they go.


Quote: Paigowdan

but from what petty theft he could get away with, as THE game for him. I see this dynamic in spades, and it gets mind-blowing and mind-numbing....



And you lump turdballs like this in with AP's?


Quote: Paigowdan

People are responsible for their own handling of their recreational dollar without denial, or blaming of the obvious onto others, to include casinos.



Yup, and its their own fault that they're so
sadly uninformed about what toilet they're
flushing their money down. The same guy
who would spend a week pricing a new TV,
looking at reviews and comparing, that same
guy will dump $600 into a casino game because
he assumes he's getting value for his money,
without doing one thing to find out if its true.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal

  • Jump to: