Alan
Joined: Jun 14, 2011
• Posts: 582
August 18th, 2011 at 9:36:48 AM permalink
Quote: akd1217

First, ty to everyone for the advice. What I understand, is to play the PL, with odds bc it is the best bet, maybe some come bets along the way once I get the hang of it. I am slightly confused tho, and these may be some bonehead sort of questions, but here goes. :) I understand the odds bet is of no house advantage, but only bc I read it. lol Can someone explain how this is so?

Because the odds bet pays off at true odds.

Quote: akd1217

Or is this so bc of the payouts?

Yes-see above.

Quote: akd1217

Also, don't you have to lay odds bets in the multiples of the payouts?

Yes to get paid correctly and not get short changed(rounded down)

Quote: akd1217

Shouldn't I have some sort of idea of how likely a number is to be rolled b4 placing ne sort of come bet?

What do you mean? A come bet is a new come-out roll for that bet, so you don't have any idea what number will appear. Obviously the 7 is the most rolled number, 6/8 in 2nd place and so on.

Quote: akd1217

Place bets sound decent also, bc they give u a choice, but if the payouts are worse, shouldn't I stick with come bets instead?

They're only worse in the fact that they DON'T pay off at true odds(which increases the house edge) but as noted above your odds bets do pay off at true odds on the PL. So, I guess in a way, you pay a premium for being able to place the numbers you want and not let the dice pick them for you.
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
• Posts: 9955
August 18th, 2011 at 10:18:06 AM permalink
Quote: akd1217

I understand the odds bet is of no house advantage, but only bc I read it. lol Can someone explain how this is so? I am understanding it to be sort of a second bet on the PL, after a point is established, but if it is tied to the PL, wouldn't it have the same HE as the PL?

Yes and no.

Some mathemeticians will discuss them as a combined bet. But in that case, the odds actually reduces the overall odds of the combined bet. When thought of as seperate wagers, the odds have no edge.

The math is simple.

For example, odds on a 6 (or 8) pays \$6 for every \$5. In 36 combinations of two dice, there are five ways to roll a 6 (or 8), and six ways to roll a 7. So paying 6:5 is "true odds". Similarly for 6:4 (often labeled as 3:2) for the 5 or 9, and 6:3 (labeled 2:1) for the 4 or 10.

Quote: akd1217

Also, don't you have to lay odds bets in the multiples of the payouts? It seems so confusing to have to remember the payouts and lay odds accordingly, or am I making too much out of it?

The phrase "Lay Odds" typically refers to odds on a Don't Pass or Don't Come bet. Yes, in those cases, you need to use multiples of the regular bet's payout unit.

When putting odds on a Pass or Come bet, the thing to remember is "Odds are even on odds." You'll hear the stickman announce that often when the point is 5 or 9. As catchy as it is, it confuses newbies. Simply put, because of the 3:2 payout on the two points that are odd numbers (5 and 9), the Odds on those numbers need to be an even amount.

I.E. If you has \$5 in Odds on a point of 5, the 3:2 payout should be \$7.50. Unless the casino is using quarters (very few do), they'll round down to \$7. So put an extra \$1 on it to collect \$9 if it hits.

Is it making sense?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
odiousgambit

Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 7821
August 18th, 2011 at 10:54:51 AM permalink
Quote: akd1217

I understand the odds bet is of no house advantage, but only bc I read it. lol Can someone explain how this is so?

Apparently it is derived from street craps and players making side bets and knowing what the fair odds are. The house wanting to control everything, they started booking them, but in this circumstance couldnt get away with a house edge. To keep from booking a total loser they tie it to a bet with a house edge. At least that is the best explanation I've heard.

Quote:

I am understanding it to be sort of a second bet on the PL, after a point is established, but if it is tied to the PL, wouldn't it have the same HE as the PL?

Close. The bet has a whole has the same Expected Value, but a lower HE. If at a \$5 table, wanting to bet \$10 at a time, you are better off putting \$5 on the line and \$5 in odds, than in putting the whole sawbuck on the line. Edit: it has been pointed out many times that if you exceed your comfort level with the \$10, but are thinking you must get better odds, your thinking is skewed because you can't change the EV.

Quote:

Shouldn't I have some sort of idea of how likely a number is to be rolled b4 placing ne sort of come bet?

A come bet is the same as a line bet, except that it is placed while the shooter is trying to make his point and you maybe don't have a line bet or just want the action of separate bets at line odds. You won't know what number you are going for in advance anymore than if the come bet will resolve on one roll of 2,3,12, or 7, 11. If you practice with an online free game this will become clear.

Quote:

Place bets sound decent also, bc they give u a choice, but if the payouts are worse, shouldn't I stick with come bets instead?

The payouts go from "ok" to "not so hot" on place bets. Generally only the 6 and 8 are considered worth much play. I avoid all of them for the most part. You can get all the action you can handle with come bets.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
akd1217
Joined: Aug 2, 2011
• Posts: 19
August 18th, 2011 at 1:35:57 PM permalink
"Odds are even on odds." So when a five or a nine appears, simply make sure I lay odds in even numbers? So when betting odds, it doesn't totally matter what "times" the odds are, as long as it doesn't exceed the tables max? That sentence was confusing, the example given was to lay the extra dollar to make \$6 when laying odds on a \$5 dollar PL bet. So, \$5 would have been 1x odds but \$6 is just over that, but not close to 2x odds. lol so you are allowed to lay odds in any increment, just make sure your odds match the payouts so you don't lose money?

As for the come bets, I think I was a little confused, but think I have it now. A come is similar to a PL, correct? You place the come and from there, it is like a come out roll where u win, lose, or est a point. From there, after an est point, you can place an odds bet with your come. When exactly are u able to place your come bet, after the PL point is established, and ne time in between dice rolls? Do the "odds are even on odds" pertain to come bet odds also? When a point is est on a come bet, does the dealer move your bet himself?

I do truly thank you for you patience in me asking these crazy questions. lol I really wish to understand what I don't so I can better enjoy myself while gambling, and possibly make a buck or 2. ;)
akd1217
Joined: Aug 2, 2011
• Posts: 19
August 18th, 2011 at 1:42:29 PM permalink
Also, let me be sure, the odds bet has no HE on its own, but since the casinos pair it with the PL bet, essentially the PL bet HE goes a lot lower bc your guaranteed a true payout on the odds?
Alan
Joined: Jun 14, 2011
• Posts: 582
August 18th, 2011 at 1:51:55 PM permalink
Yes.

But keep in mind that the more in odds out there on the felt, the more \$\$ is still subjected to a (possible) loss and of course a (possible) win. This increases variance. Variance is good when it's positive and not so good when it's negative. You have to have a decent size bankroll to stay in the game with those fluctuations, so don't underfund yourself for the bets you plan to make.
akd1217
Joined: Aug 2, 2011
• Posts: 19
August 18th, 2011 at 1:53:03 PM permalink
Another random one... if a PL point is made and the "round" is over, your come bet stays bc it wasn't 7ned out, but I read the odds are not turned on on a new come out roll, only if u tell the dealer u want them on. Say a come bet is 7ned out on a PL come out roll, with odds off, do you get your odds bet back?
odiousgambit

Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 7821
August 18th, 2011 at 1:55:29 PM permalink
Quote: akd1217

Also, let me be sure, the odds bet has no HE on its own, but since the casinos pair it with the PL bet, essentially the PL bet HE goes a lot lower bc your guaranteed a true payout on the odds?

HE lower, EV the same.

I can tell from some of your continued confusion: you absolutely must practice with some free online game like is available in this site.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
• Posts: 9955
August 18th, 2011 at 1:55:31 PM permalink
I do think you're starting to get it.

The odds multiplier means the maximum odds, although you can go slightly over the maximum to make things easier. You can always ask what the maximums are. Different casinos may do that a little differently, so don't feel bad if you're not sure.

Yes, come bets are exactly like a pass line bet, but established when the shooter is not shooting a "come out roll". Yeah, that's another confusing thing. "Come out rolls" refer to pass line bets. Non come out rolls are when you can make a Come bet.

And the dealer will move your come bet to the appropriate position in the number boxes. You then give him chips for the odds, and he'll put it on top, at a slight offset.

Place bets are a little different in that they go directly to a slightly different position in the number box, and pay slightly different.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
rudeboyoi

Joined: Mar 28, 2010