RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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September 29th, 2011 at 6:32:47 PM permalink
I've played the bet at the IP in Biloxi, and you have to make the bet at the start of the shooter's roll. Once they have made a number, they are not going to let you bet it.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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September 30th, 2011 at 5:25:09 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I've played the bet at the IP in Biloxi, and you have to make the bet at the start of the shooter's roll. Once they have made a number, they are not going to let you bet it.

That's the Fire Bet.

The All bets are made after any roll of a 7. This includes a mid-roll come out 7.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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September 30th, 2011 at 5:49:00 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

That's the Fire Bet.

The All bets are made after any roll of a 7. This includes a mid-roll come out 7.



That is true, but think about what happens after a mid roll 7 ??????

Oh, are you saying if a shooter makes their point, and rolls a come out 7, the small, tall, all bets all lose? So they are ACTIVE on come out rolls?

My first roll on the table I rolled the stupid ALL bet, but no one was playing it. I started playing it a few times after that, but not enough to be sure if it was active on come out rolls or not. I didn't think it was. Basically, I just kept forgetting to make the bet when I could do it.


BTW, A Fire Bet can be made late, if the shooter has not yet established a point. In other words, if the new shooter has rolled a couple of craps and a 7, you can still get on the Fire bet.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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September 30th, 2011 at 6:13:47 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

That is true, but think about what happens after a mid roll 7 ??????

That's why I specified a mid-roll come out 7.

Quote: RaleighCraps

BTW, A Fire Bet can be made late, if the shooter has not yet established a point. In other words, if the new shooter has rolled a couple of craps and a 7, you can still get on the Fire.

That's the conventional wisdom. However, some casinos do NOT allow this type of late Fire Bet.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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September 30th, 2011 at 6:22:26 AM permalink
HEY! No fair editing your post while I was quoting it!

Quote: RaleighCraps

Oh, are you saying if a shooter makes their point, and rolls a come out 7, the small, tall, all bets all lose? So they are ACTIVE on come out rolls?

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Although I never played it, I watched for about half an hour at the Wynn. There was only one guy playing. $5 every time ($2 on small and tall, $1 on all). Every time a 7 rolled, come-out or new shooter, he threw in a red. Never got paid during the 30 minutes I was there....
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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September 30th, 2011 at 6:51:02 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

HEY! No fair editing your post while I was quoting it!



Hey, No fair answering my post until I am finished ;-)

I read your post, fired off a response, and THEN decided to think about what you wrote. (I still managed to miss the mid-roll come out 7)

One would hope the rules for the Small, Tall, All bet would be standard from casino to casino, especially since we know all the other craps rules are standardized...........
Next time I am in Biloxi, I will make it a point to check out the IP craps tables again, specifically to WATCH this bet. I have limited my craps play to Beau Rivage, as that is the only place I am consistently holding my own. I have had NO winning sessions at IP, and most have been very short with high losses, so I am done there. I will play $200 at Harrah's Grand just to keep my Reward Points alive. At least I have won a few times there, but they are so stingy with their rating it is not worth plunking down real money.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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September 30th, 2011 at 7:39:35 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

One would hope the rules for the Small, Tall, All bet would be standard from casino to casino, especially since we know all the other craps rules are standardized...........

Well, not all rules. I.E. Some casinos, buy bets pay the vig up front, some only on a win. The difference is minor. Some Donts bar the 2 instead of the 12. There's no real difference. Etc.

The discrepancy in the late Fire bet option comes from a "sweat the money" mindset. I.E. If you watch a shooter's first roll, and he appears to be a precision shooter, and you're lucky enough that he didn't roll a point number, you might be inclined to make that late Fire bet. If the casino is sweating the money, they may think of that as an advantage play.

Changing the rules for the All bets from Any 7 to a 7-out is a huge change in the bet as well as the odds. After all, many shooters will hit multiple 7s in a roll.

The All bet and Fire bet are conceptually similar. The major difference is the Fire bet is looking for different successful passes. As such, come-out 7s are OK. The All bets is looking for different rolls. As such, the All bets lose on Any 7.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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September 30th, 2011 at 10:31:53 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Well, not all rules. I.E. Some casinos, buy bets pay the vig up front, some only on a win. The difference is minor. Some Donts bar the 2 instead of the 12. There's no real difference. Etc.



I was contrarily trying to point out that craps games already have various ways of playing the same bets, so different rules on ALL ,Small, or Tall would not be unheard of.

Note to self - I REALLY need to start using emoticons, to avoid dry wit being mistaken for reality........... ;-)

As far as the box sweating the Fire Bet, by not allowing you to play it after a comeout 7 has been rolled.... Why would they sweat a bet that has a 20% HE? Just because a 7 has rolled, it has NO BEARING at all on the Fire Bet you are about to make. Even if they allowed you to make the bet IMMEDIATELY after the point has been established, it would not affect the HE on the bet. Any box/pit that is doing that as a sweat the money move is a complete tool.


Now I have a question for the math gurus.

Two casinos have the Small, Tall, All bet. Both casinos pay out the same.

In casino A, the comeout roll does not count. So a 7 does not lose your bet. However, that also means any number other than a 7 also does not count towards resolving the bet.

In casino B, every roll counts. You make the bet, and if a 7 rolls, they take it down. However, that also means that on comeout rolls, any number other than 7 helps resolve your bet.

The question is, Is the house edge the same for both casinos?

I think it is, since every roll is independent of any other, so whether the bet is active every roll, or only active a various times, should not change the HE of the bet. I eqaute this to making a Place bet 6, and then turning it off and on every other roll. It just doesn't change the HE.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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September 30th, 2011 at 10:38:25 AM permalink
Yes, per bet. The house edge per roll is lower at casino A, so you'll lose more slowly there.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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September 30th, 2011 at 10:45:37 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Yes, per bet. The house edge per roll is lower at casino A, so you'll lose more slowly there.



all right. So it is conceivable then, that a casino could choose to run the bet as working or not working on Comeout rolls, depending on which way they find it to flow the best.
Now I am really curious to see how they were doing it at IP.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!

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