DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 31st, 2011 at 12:48:35 PM permalink
konceptum -

OK. We get it. You know what you were seeing and it really was a hustle.

For the record, I don't think there is any reason to keep the casino's name a secret. Until your last paragraph, I had assumed that it was some casino in the middle of nowhere, that nobody except locals would ever go to.

It's a Vegas casino? C'mon. You gotta name it...
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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May 31st, 2011 at 12:54:37 PM permalink
I abhor the behaviour of dealers asking for a tip and abhor even more dealers taking advantage of novices to get tips. This behaviour is not limited to tipping but to game play in general.

For example, when a newbie places a bet on the line after the point has been established, the dealer should automatically ask the player to move it to the point to get the place odds and explain the reasoning. The big six and big eight bets should be rejected if the bet is $6 or more (place it instead). The dealers should ask the player to buy a 4 and 10 when the place bet exceeds $20. The dealers should be asking players to back up their come bets and pass bets with odds and to put even money on the 5 and 9. That kind of dealer behaviour is what I look for at a craps table. If I don't see that behaviour, I don't tip or I walk to a better table.

I don't mind the dealers shilling for the sucker bets in the center.

I walked from Let it Ride a couple of nights ago because the dealer refused to let me help a player who clearly did not know how to play (he was staying on a flush when the first card didn't match the flush, he didn't stay when he matched an A in his hand). She was very rude about it. I walked away and exclaimed, "help the guy out, for crying out loud". She purposefully mispaid the player on a 3 of a kind. Disgusting.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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May 31st, 2011 at 12:57:17 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

I will also state that this is the only casino that I've played where the craps dealers can choose whether or not to keep their tip bets active on the table. I'm sure I'm not using the correct terminology on this. Typical casino example is that, let's say you put down a $1 bet on a hard-10 for the boys. Hard-10 gets rolled. Dealers will get paid, and the $1 bet comes down. I've seen things done this way in almost every other casino I've been in. In fact, I was told once that I should play the $1 tip on my own bet, and then pay the boys the amount the $1 would have won. That way, the $1 tip stays live on my bet, instead of coming down, and then me having to put up another $1 bet for the boys. (I hope this makes sense to everybody. If not, I'll try to re-clarify it.)

Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, we know what you mean.

It also makes sense that this casino is in Vegas. Im most jurisdictions, casino personell are not allowed to gamble in their own casino. Only in Vegas would they not only allow it, but allow the dealers to make parlay decisions on tip bets!

By the way, the term for what you're doing, i.e. putting the tip bet on top of your own, is called "Player control." I've also heard it called "Piggyback." The wierd thing is, and I doubt that this is true, that the "Piggyback" term evolved in jurisdictions where "Player control" was not allowed. In those jurisdictions, the bet is paid as one combined payout, but the player returns the tip winnings to the dealers.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
konceptum
konceptum
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May 31st, 2011 at 1:28:27 PM permalink
Player control. Yes. I had forgotten that term. Man, it's really been a while since I've gambled. Sheesh.

The casino I've referring to is not in Las Vegas.
wschmrdr
wschmrdr
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May 31st, 2011 at 6:55:37 PM permalink
We may end up travelling to it, you might as well dish the dirt.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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May 31st, 2011 at 7:05:17 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

Player control. Yes. I had forgotten that term. Man, it's really been a while since I've gambled. Sheesh.

The casino I've referring to is not in Las Vegas.



Why on earth won't you mention the name of the casino?
konceptum
konceptum
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May 31st, 2011 at 8:59:42 PM permalink
Well, at this point, I feel like since I haven't been there in over a year, that maybe they've since been shown the error of their ways and have changed their policy on this. If that's the case, then there's no sense in outing the casino. As I said, at the end of the June when I go on my trip, I'll try to stop by there at least once and see if things are still the same.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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June 1st, 2011 at 3:18:32 AM permalink
Interesting. Dealer tokes cannot be parlayed by the dealers, unless it is "player controlled," as that consititutes "dealers' gambling while on the job," a huge no-no.

I don't feel it is criminal (and neither do most boxmen) if, during a hot session, a dealer discreetly and politely requests $1 and states that it's "for the boys," whating for an okay by the player. That's okay. The novice player learns that an occasional tip is a fine practice, and he would not have otherwise known. So as long as the player is up, and the action is announced for the player to approve it, and it's modest, say a dollar, it's okay. The first time my father took me to a fancy, sit-down restaurant and left money on the table, I asked "Dad, what is that for?" EVERYBODY was once a novice in everything.

However, what's never okay is to:
1. keep a winning bet up without the player throwing in a brand new toke bet. This "replay the toke bet action" constitutes a dealer directly putting a "down tip" back into action for some on-the-job gambling.
2. to ever skim from a player's full winning payout for a hand-in tip or toke bet, announced or not.

There's no harm in outing a casino committing abuses; if they've stopped, then they've stopped. If they hadn't, you've done something. Find out, if possible.
By all means, Contact the Gaming Control Board jurisdiction in your area with this stuff, especially if you want to see abuses stopped if they hadn't.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
konceptum
konceptum
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June 1st, 2011 at 3:41:17 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I don't feel it is criminal (and neither do most boxmen) if, during a hot session, a dealer discreetly and politely requests $1 and states that it's "for the boys," whating for an okay by the player. That's okay. The novice player learns that an occasional tip is a fine practice, and he would not have otherwise known. So as long as the player is up, and the action is announced for the player to approve it, and it's modest, say a dollar, it's okay. The first time my father took me to a fancy, sit-down restaurant and left money on the table, I asked "Dad, what is that for?" EVERYBODY was once a novice in everything.


I agree with this.

Quote: Paigowdan


However, what's never okay is to:
1. keep a winning bet up without the player throwing in a brand new toke bet. This "replay the toke bet action" constitutes a dealer directly putting a "down tip" back into action for some on-the-job gambling.


Is this something that is specifically listed in Gaming Control for the state of Nevada? Another similar idea would be, when leaving a table, I've been known to throw the dealers a few bucks, if I've been up. (Usually, whatever white chips I might have remaining.) I don't usually say anything, just toss the chips, and wave my hand. The majority of the time, the dealers will take the white chips and decide amongst themselves what bets to put them down on, usually something in the center of the table. Since I didn't specifically state that the money was to be used for betting purposes, wouldn't this qualify as being on-the-job gambling as well? Separately, if during the play of the game, I toss the dealer a white chip and tell them to bet where they like, and they choose a bet for themselves, doesn't that count as on-the-job gambling? This would be different from me tossing a white chip and telling them to put it on snake eyes for the boys.

Quote: Paigowdan


2. to ever skim from a player's full winning payout for a hand-in tip or toke bet, announced or not.


Agreed here as well, but to me this specifically means short-paying a player and utilizing the skimmed money as a dealer bet. Remember that my example was that the player was paid the full and correct amount, and then asked to throw in a white chip. They just aren't told what the white chip is for.

Quote: Paigowdan


There's no harm in outing a casino committing abuses; if they've stopped, then they've stopped. If they hadn't, you've done something. Find out, if possible.
By all means, Contact the Gaming Control Board jurisdiction in your area with this stuff, especially if you want to see abuses stopped if they hadn't.


What troubles me is that, as I've mentioned, this was all done in full view of pit bosses and with their consent. It strikes me as difficult to believe that a well known and fairly major casino would risk being shut down by Gaming Control for something so blatantly obvious, at least to knowledgeable players of the game. And this casino does attract knowledgeable players.
konceptum
konceptum
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June 1st, 2011 at 4:06:56 AM permalink
Well, I did a quick search on the internet to see if I'm really the only one who's ever noticed this, and apparently I'm not.

Quote:

Quote 1
At the Riverside in Laughlin, the dealers hustle you for tips all of the time. They have finally left me alone, though--for the most part. The problem I have is that sometimes the players don't know they are betting for the dealers, and they automatically put themselves back up after prop wins


Quote:

Quote 2
Riverside Casino Laughlin, NV dealers are pushed to hustle tokes and coincidently they make the most money of any other casino in Laughlin


Quote:

Quote 3
Best served, being a craps dealer in laughlin... would you be familiar with the crew at riverside casino? I am a frequent visitor to laughlin, mostly to shoot dice around the area and i try to avoid shooting dice there. I am a good tipper, i also do small tokes even if losing, but i cant stand being hustle for tokes while i am playing. If you are ahead a few bets, expect them to beg and sometimes help themselfs to your money. I saw them do this to an old lady while the pit boss just sit there. Really strange, i never come across an crew like that. Not sure if this is still there policy, as i had not stop there for at least a year now.



Somewhere in my past years, I had heard the rumors that Riverside dealers split their tips with the managers, ie, pit bosses.

Quote:

Las Vegas Sun Article
During last yearís testimony on the case, a manager at Don Laughlinís Riverside Resort testified that dealers at the Laughlin casino had been sharing tips with their supervisors for years.


But this would explain why the pit bosses are willing to turn a blind eye to the dealers being so active in soliciting tips from the players.

The three quotes came from websites I wouldn't normally peruse, but they showed up in my search. The first quote doesn't have a time stamp, the second one shows May of 2010, and the third one shows November of 2008. The Las Vegas Sun article is from July of 2010. So clearly, this issue of actively soliciting tips and doing some of the other things I've seen has been going on up to at least around this time last year, and may still be going on.

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