Odds Working on Come Bet?

Can a craps player elect to have the odds on his come bets work on an ensuing comeout roll?

I know a player can work his place bets, but what about odds on come bets?

I've never seen anyone do it.

Yes just ask the dealer to have them working.

You hardly ever see anyone doing it for several reasons. The biggest is that hardly anyone does it.

There are times where the dealer is lazy, and doesn't drop the 'On' button properly.

One reason the dealer may do that is if the player that requested them be on has been tipping, this enables the dealer to cheat for the player. I.E. If his come bet hits, there's the 'On' button, and he pays. If the come out is a 7, then the come bets lose, but he can return most of the odds, claiming the 'On' was only for one specific bet.

Note that often the dealer is simply lazy about it, and has no intention of cheating.

I almost always ask for my odds to be working on the comeout. I did this because i wanted more action.

Then I discovered if the dealer forgets to drop the 'on' button, but a point hits, they remember to pay you. If the 7 hits, they sometimes give all the odds back. Or, like DJ said, they can drop the 'on' button and still return some of the odds to you. But that doesn't happen as often to me.

Quote: dwheatley

Or, like DJ said, they can drop the 'on' button and still return some of the odds to you. But that doesn't happen as often to me.

"If you tip, they will come" - Kevin Costner, "Field Bets of Dreams"

Quote: dwheatley

I almost always ask for my odds to be working on the comeout. I did this because i wanted more action.

Then I discovered if the dealer forgets to drop the 'on' button, but a point hits, they remember to pay you. If the 7 hits, they sometimes give all the odds back. Or, like DJ said, they can drop the 'on' button and still return some of the odds to you. But that doesn't happen as often to me.

The "come point" odds are always off on the come-out, - unless you ask them to be on - AND they (the dealers) put on an "on" button the odds.
if you ask them to be "on," then they either pay or lose.
Otherwise they are returned on a come-out 7 ("Workers lose, but Save the odds.")

Quote: MrV

Can a craps player elect to have the odds on his come bets work on an ensuing comeout roll?

I know a player can work his place bets, but what about odds on come bets?

Yes.
Come bets, the flat part, are always working. They can never be turned off.
Craps rules state, I have never seen it any differently, by default, the come bet odds are always "off" on the come out roll unless the player tells the dealer he wishes to have them working... And as DJ explained above, the dealer will place an "on" button etc.

ALL come bet odds will be returned to the player on a come out roll 7 if the odds were not working.

Quote: MrV

I've never seen anyone do it.

It is not common. Most times I have seen it happen, the player only did it a few times.
The HA is ever so slightly lower. Simulations in Wincraps shows HA, with double odds, to be ~.62% and ~.62%. Odds not working and working on the come out roll.
The Wizard explains this situation also at WoO HERE under the COME section.

Quote: dwheatley

I almost always ask for my odds to be working on the comeout. I did this because i wanted more action.

Then I discovered if the dealer forgets to drop the 'on' button, but a point hits, they remember to pay you.

No, the crap dealers don't "pay" you - they simply return the odds that were "off," but pay you the added odds when the come point odds were "on" if a point were hit - or lose all on a come-out 7.
The flat come-point bet is always on, and cannot be off. The "come-point" odds can be switched on or off, and are "off" by default.

Quote: dwheatley

If the 7 hits, they sometimes give all the odds back. Or, like DJ said, they can drop the 'on' button and still return some of the odds to you. But that doesn't happen as often to me.

No, If the 7 hits on the come-out, the "on" odds ALWAYS lose on a come-out 7, and are NOT returned back to you. If "off," they (the odds) are returned to you but the flat bet come point(s) lose. The odds win if said to be "on," if on a point number is rolled on a come-out roll. The come-point odds are ALWAYS return you back if the come-point odds are "off" on a come-out 7 - but they take the flat "come-point" flat bet.
It's that simple. (??)! - This is called "Save the odds" on a come-out roll.

So, if they (the come-point odds) were "working" (or "on," - on the come-out) - then they (the come-point odds) always lose on a 7 or win on that point - along with the flat bet. If the odds are off, they are returned to you on a 7, but all the flat come point bet lose on a 7, or else they "go on" when a different point is hit, except for that particular come point. Then they are returned to you without payment, but the flat point is paid to you, and the rest of your different come points with odds go "on." And no action is taken if a come-out crap number is thrown on the come bets, although the pass-line and don't pass win or lose on a come-out natural, 7 or crap number.

Got that? Piece of cake...

I'm a crap dealer. You don't want to know...

That flat come bet is paid at even money just like your flat pass line bet, if you happen to have a come bet on the newly established point.

Dan -

I never said that I suggested it, just stating what some dishonest dealers will do, and what some players will do knowing that there are dishonest dealers out there.

For the record, I never turn my odds or place bets on for the come-out.

And, maybe I should point out, as far as ethics goes, this is way outside of the range of ignoring a dealer mistake that's in the player's favor.

It doesn't make a lot of sense when it comes to the HA, but I will often leave the odds on a single come bet "on" during the come out phase of the game. I am less likely to do it when I have two or more come bets. I guess I don't feel as bad about risking a $10-$15 odds bet as I do about risking 2-3 of them...

As has been previously said: There is a not so insignificant HA reason to keep your odds working during the come out. With this in mind, I almost always keep them off. The amount of variance increase (especially when you have a few 'points') is too high for me.

Quote: Paigowdan

Got that? Piece of cake...

I'm a crap dealer. You don't want to know...

You seem to have completely missed the point of my post. I know how odds work (or, by default, don't) on the come out.

The point I was trying to make was along the same vein as DJ's. I innocently discovered that by doing something unusual (asking for odds 'on' on come out), you can occasionally make money you shouldn't. For those who don't mind some gray in their ethics, this should be reason enough to keep them working. Especially if you are tipping...

Try unbuttoning a collar in that starched-up shirt.

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but if you are concerned with the possible loss on the 7, you can turn only a few of the Odds bets ON if you want.

It is technically better to have odds working at all times. For me though I just can't do it all the time. It is very common for me to keep the 6/8 odds on and the rest off. There isn't really any solid reason why just those numbers, but basically if I have 4 numbers out there, I'm risking half of the bets. Pick whatever numbers you want if you only want to do a few of them.

We place odds because it reduces the HA slightly. If you are going to put any money on the table in the first place, you might as well put as much as possible on the table at "fair" odds. That is how you reduce the HA over the long term.

Given that we believe that and that is why we place odds, I do not understand why anyone would want the odds off on a new come out. The only reason I have heard is that people are somewhat superstitious and when most other people on the table may be rooting for a seven on the comeout, sometimes people do not want their odds working. That reason aside, if you believe in placing odds, there is absolutely no logical reason not to ask for your odds to work on the new comeout. It is actually inconsistent not to have them work.

For example, say the original point is a 5 and then a 9 point is rolled. Should we bet differently if a 5 is rolled next versus a 9? The answer is no. Either way, we want the odds working.

Quote: PaiGowFan

We place odds because it reduces the HA slightly. If you are going to put any money on the table in the first place, you might as well put as much as possible on the table at "fair" odds. That is how you reduce the HA over the long term.

Given that we believe that and that is why we place odds, I do not understand why anyone would want the odds off on a new come out. The only reason I have heard is that people are somewhat superstitious ....

Variance is another important reason.

I am a low roller and play the games mostly for entertainment. I rarely take full odds unless I have already had a good session and my bankroll is up. I may have multiple points in play in order to get more action and entertainment, but if I go heavy on the odds, it only takes a few bad rolls to bring my session to an end. I try not to get too much money in play at a time.

Now if there is a comeout roll and I have some number of points already covered by come bets with partial (or full) odds, then obviously I had similar exposure before the previous point was made. But I may decide that I am more comfortable with the odds off for one roll, so I don't bother to call them on.

House advantage isn't the entire story. Increased variance can make your life either better or worse, and there is no reason to think the same route is better for everyone.

Quote: Doc

But I may decide that I am more comfortable with the odds off for one roll, so I don't bother to call them on.

House advantage isn't the entire story. Increased variance can make your life either better or worse, and there is no reason to think the same route is better for everyone.

Doc,

I understand and that makes sense. I am not suggesting that full odds works for everyone. My point was only that there is no difference between odds bets when there is an original point and when it is a comeout roll.

Keep in mind, I think casinos will allow you to take odds bets down, so you can control your risk that way. You do not have to wait for a comeout roll.

Quote: PaiGowFan

... Keep in mind, I think casinos will allow you to take odds bets down, so you can control your risk that way. You do not have to wait for a comeout roll.

Agreed.

Here is a description of a fairly common craps experience for me. I place a pass bet, have a point established and wager some amount of free odds. Maybe I place the 6 and/or 8. Then there are three or four or five rolls on which I neither win nor lose any money, so I get a little bored and place a come bet. Maybe the original point is made, or the come bet replaces my 6/8, but otherwise I have an additional number covered with some amount of odds. Then there are three or four or five more rolls with no win or loss, and I feel a little boredom again (remember that I am there for the entertainment), so I place another come bet. After I go through that step a few times (and maybe the original point is made and a new one established), I may look around and realize that I have four or five times my usual amount of money at risk on the next roll. If points start hitting, I'm building my bankroll; if not, it goes down the tube suddenly. It can be a little shocking to a guy who usually bets a $5 pass with $10 to $20 odds to look at the table and see that he has $100-$150 sitting out there. (Multiply this by whatever scaling factor you like.) If I start to think about those extra funds at risk, I probably don't bother to take the odds down -- I can't really rationalize that. However, if the point is made and the new come out roll is a 7, my disappointment at losing those come bets might just be significantly eased by seeing all those free-odds chips moved back into my rack instead of being swept away. With that thought in mind, I rarely bother to call the odds on for the come out, particularly if there are multiple come bets in play. It's just a one-roll opportunity for stress relief by default before excitement begins anew. Yes, I play like a coward, and I do understand that my risk on the come out roll is no worse than on any of the previous rolls.

Quote: Doc

Agreed.

Here is a description of a fairly common craps experience for me. I place a pass bet, have a point established and wager some amount of free odds. Maybe I place the 6 and/or 8. Then there are three or four or five rolls on which I neither win nor lose any money, so I get a little bored and place a come bet. Maybe the original point is made, or the come bet replaces my 6/8, but otherwise I have an additional number covered with some amount of odds. Then there are three or four or five more rolls with no win or loss, and I feel a little boredom again (remember that I am there for the entertainment), so I place another come bet. After I go through that step a few times (and maybe the original point is made and a new one established), I may look around and realize that I have four or five times my usual amount of money at risk on the next roll. If points start hitting, I'm building my bankroll; if not, it goes down the tube suddenly. It can be a little shocking to a guy who usually bets a $5 pass with $10 to $20 odds to look at the table and see that he has $100-$150 sitting out there. (Multiply this by whatever scaling factor you like.) If I start to think about those extra funds at risk, I probably don't bother to take the odds down -- I can't really rationalize that. However, if the point is made and the new come out roll is a 7, my disappointment at losing those come bets might just be significantly eased by seeing all those free-odds chips moved back into my rack instead of being swept away. With that thought in mind, I rarely bother to call the odds on for the come out, particularly if there are multiple come bets in play. It's just a one-roll opportunity for stress relief by default before excitement begins anew. Yes, I play like a coward, and I do understand that my risk on the come out roll is no worse than on any of the previous rolls.

Although I usually play somewhat similer to you Doc if the shooter has been hot and I have all the numbers covered with come bets (other than the point of course) I will keep everything up after a 7 on the come out roll with put bets on the numbers and leave the odds in place. As in every other bet in a casino 'sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't'

Quote: Doc

However, if the point is made and the new come out roll is a 7, my disappointment at losing those come bets might just be significantly eased by seeing all those free-odds chips moved back into my rack instead of being swept away.

I tend to have the same feelings. It's a relief to have that odds money back in your rail...a reward for all your hard work.

Especially when the next point is established and the following roll is a seven!

I have to say, there is nothing better than getting paid on the come-out when you have odds on and the shooter hits one of your points.

And there is nothing worse than seeing all your bets go down the tubes when the shooter throws a come-out seven.

Fair enough. We are there for entertainment and fun, so if that works for you, you should do it.

I'm very mathematical and logical, so I like to think through what I should do. But to be honest, I only go to casinos a few times a year, so playing perfectly is not as critical for me either.

if the flat bet is paid at even money can you take it down after the hit?

Quote: leftend22

if the flat bet is paid at even money can you take it down after the hit?

HUH? If its being paid, you pick up your flat bet and the payoff. If not, the rule is "if it lays it plays" and both stacks of chips: your flat bet and the casinos pay-off of it would be added together and considered to be a bet that you had just made.

Quote: leftend22

if the flat bet is paid at even money can you take it down after the hit?

The come bets that win always come down and are paid on the COME line unless you had another bet on the COME line to replace the come point that just won.

Now it is up to you to decide what to do with the total down payoff that is sitting on the COME line in front of you.
It becomes a new bet if you space out and do nothing.

I play the come a lot and when the Dealer told me I had a winning bet, I expected it to be handed off like place bets are,
right in front of the player between the player and the pass line.
Most dealers pay off a winning come bet/odds on the COME line as I have already pointed out.

My bet that I did not pick up in time, won on the next roll. 11. I picked it up fast that time and the Dealer had a good laugh!

Sally

thanks sally