QFIT
QFIT
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
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April 10th, 2017 at 6:59:49 PM permalink
Ignoring the mythology and superstition, and revisiting the OP; craps enjoys a bit of its own nature. Iíve said before that gambling games have existed since the first dice carved from the anklebones of an antelope were thrown against a cave wall. Modern craps only goes back a bit over two centuries, with humble beginnings in the lower Mississippi Delta. Unlike overly romantic tales of Fyodor Dostoyevsky, orgasmicaly wasting Francs in the casino in Baden-Baden, craps was a poor manís game played in alleyways and occasionally riverboats.

It is, in fact, a very difficult game to deal. And, the dealers, when the tables are not full, can tend to use a bit of sharp banter, akin to the give-and-take of pick-up games. I think it is a bit of a throwback, and I welcome it. Iíd welcome more throwbacks Ė like Early Surrender.:)
"It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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April 10th, 2017 at 7:39:19 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

Right. And that's the very best thing that could happen.

What if the shooter had switched the dice, then the die went off the table, you pick it up, and now the serial number or pips aren't right?


Floorman/boxman would notice, and have some questions, with security present. People can also try to switch dice into the game without a die thrown off the table.

Quote: sodawater

What if while you're walking halfway across the aisle to get a die some lowlife swipes a green chip off your rail?


The chip pincher would be noticed by the base dealer and surveillance, if not other players too. Players more often try to take chips from others when the game is busy, not when it is stopped with a die off the table.

Quote: sodawater

If you wouldn't go out to the parking lot to valet park cars for the casino as volunteer, you shouldn't be picking up errant dice.


I wouldn't quite put it in those terms; if a die falls off near the table and a player fetches it as a clear courtesy, it's no big deal.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Apr 10, 2017
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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April 10th, 2017 at 10:51:41 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Floorman/boxman would notice, and have some questions, with security present. People can also try to switch dice into the game without a die thrown off the table.

Just out of curiosity after the dice go off the table do they check for balance or do they just check the serial numbers?

Someone could counterfeit biased dice with the same serial number. I certainly doubt they would want to switch dice retrieved off the floor, it's probably better for the cheat to do an in-game switch for that move.

Has anyone ever heard of anyone getting caught counterfeiting and switching dice with the same serial numbers?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DeMango
DeMango
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
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April 11th, 2017 at 12:55:34 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Dice setting is a superstition, an affectation, employed by the desperate and the deluded in the "hope" that it will "work."



No different than the atheist who believes that everything came from nothing and The Universe has no cause.
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
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Paigowdan
April 11th, 2017 at 12:59:14 AM permalink
The serial numbers change daily (sometimes shift to shift) and are different on each table. In addition to the serial number, many properties have a mark scribed on the die somewhere that they can check.

It is possible that someone could have some bad dice and have a hot stamp to put the proper number on the die, but the odds of that happening at any given time are astronomically small.

When I was a boxman, I checked the serial number and the scribe and also looked at all 6 sides of the die to make sure the numbers were all different. That takes a total of about 1.5 seconds. If someone gets a bad die on the game that passes those tests, good for them, they earned it.

Most dice switches are not done in that manner. A shooter will switch in bad dice, and very quickly switch them back out. They will not be making any large bets, the bets will all come from some other player or players on the game. There will usually be a distraction, and someone will have a large amount of money thrown in for the boxman to count. A simple die off the table is not enough to get bad dice into a game, assuming the boxman has at least a small clue :)
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
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April 11th, 2017 at 1:00:26 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

No different than the atheist who believes that everything came from nothing and The Universe has no cause.



The biggest problem with the "Dice Setter" is that he slows the game down. Casinos make money on decisions per hour, and someone taking up to 60 seconds to shoot the dice cuts into the bottom line.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 11th, 2017 at 2:22:20 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Just out of curiosity after the dice go off the table do they check for balance or do they just check the serial numbers?


Just the serial numbers of the dice in use, unless suspicious.

Quote: AxelWolf

Someone could counterfeit biased dice with the same serial number. I certainly doubt they would want to switch dice retrieved off the floor, it's probably better for the cheat to do an in-game switch for that move.


Highly unlikely if off the table. Most dice travel within sight by several people, and are picked up quickly for the most part. Players are watched for one-handed use, and precautions seem fine and thorough enough.

Quote: AW

Has anyone ever heard of anyone getting caught counterfeiting and switching dice with the same serial numbers?


Never heard of a single instance, in comparison to pinching, capping, card marking, past-posting, etc.

Quote:

The biggest problem with the "Dice Setter" is that he slows the game down. Casinos make money on decisions per hour, and someone taking up to 60 seconds to shoot the dice cuts into the bottom line.


If it takes a few seconds or a moment, it's generally a non-issue.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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April 11th, 2017 at 3:17:03 AM permalink
The Venetian grinds used dice to a powder rather than drilling them and selling them as gifts.

Dice are examined mainlyl for their edges and the serial number/internal logo after going overboard.

Often the stick and box examine the die.

Collusion is less likely than simple nicks that might alter the outcome, but they check serial numbers just to be sure. A table being opened usually gets five dice and a list of their numbers. "Tops" are dice that have wrong number sequences.
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
Joined: May 19, 2016
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April 11th, 2017 at 5:43:11 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

They're "desperate" ...



I appreciate your thorough response. Thank you.

Lucky, one of the dice-setting Desperados
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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Dyvan13
April 11th, 2017 at 6:17:07 AM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

The biggest problem with the "Dice Setter" is that he slows the game down. Casinos make money on decisions per hour, and someone taking up to 60 seconds to shoot the dice cuts into the bottom line.



Although I strongly agree a dice-setting shooter should never take more than a few seconds to set the dice, this seems more a problem (as you note) for the casino, rather than for the other players.

If I understand correctly, when the stick-person pushes the dice to the shooter, it is (supposed to be) because the dealers have finished "processing" pay-outs and new bets. As the dice-setter takes a couple of seconds to prepare her/his throw, I can scan the table to review my bets. Is everything as it should be? Did I take my Field-bet payout? With the fling'em-fast shooter, my "review" can get rushed (or completely aborted).

And, guess what? Might be hard to believe, but sometimes -- and far too often IMHO -- the stick pushes out the dice before both dealers have finished processing payouts and bets. I understand the stick is expected to keep the game moving as quickly as possible (because casinos make money on decisions per hour), but aren't they supposed to check both dealers before pushing the dice out? When a busy dealer overlooks paying my Field-bet win, my "Pay my Field!" alert -- even if announced just before the dealer finishes the Place bets -- sometimes comes as the dice are in mid-air. Situations like this should happen far less than they do. Dice setters often allow situations like these to get fixed before dealer errors become problems. And, problems often delay the game for more than a few seconds.

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