GWAE
GWAE
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
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November 18th, 2016 at 1:33:43 PM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP

Sure, those as well.

Other than the rules, which I understand don't permit it, hypothetically, why would a casino not allow a person to shoot one roll bets as long as there aren't any pass/don't pass players at the table? The outcome of one roll bets is independent of the outcome of the pass/don't pass, therefore, I don't know why the rule exists when the only bettor(s) at the table are not making pass/don't pass wagers.

I do understand why the rule exists when there are pass/don't pass bettors as they don't appreciate dice switching hands in the middle of a roll, even though each roll is independent of the previous. On top of that, many enjoy the group camaraderie as they cheer for the same numbers. So, in these situations, I can understand why you need a pass/don't pass to roll, but when there isn't anyone wanting to bet pass/don't pass, I don't understand why the rule exists. Not that I would do it, I haven't bet those wagers in a long long time, but it shouldn't stop others under the described circumstances.

Excuse the bold type, wasn't meant for you, but for others.



Because when the inventer made the game and the rules that is how it was.
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pwcrabb
pwcrabb
Joined: May 15, 2010
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LuckyPhow
November 18th, 2016 at 3:00:17 PM permalink
Hazard predates Craps by hundreds of years. Hazard involves a shooter who chooses a Main number from 5 to 9 which wins for him on his first throw and loses thereafter. The rules are available on Wikipedia. It was very popular among the idle rich of Europe from the Middle Ages through the mid-19th century. Today it is virtually extinct.

When Hazard was introduced to North America via New Orleans about 1807 by a young local scion returned from London, his friends were baffled by its complexity so only the best Main number was retained as the sole Main number. The name Craps was appended to this simplified game shortly thereafter. The principal enthusiasts were local blacks, hence the sobriquet "African Dominoes."

For decades, the only available game in Craps was our familiar Pass. Other games, including Field in various incarnations, were introduced over time to relieve the boredom of awaiting the resolution of Pass. For over a century, Pass was referred to as the "Center Bet" and sundry layouts for banked games featured it literally in the center. There was no way for a shooter to bet "wrong."

Responding to gaffed dice, Mr. Winn of Philadelphia introduced the game of Don't Pass in 1910 via a new layout featuring that new bet.

Without a bet on either Pass or Don't Pass, there is no Craps. Imagine icing without the cake.
"I suppose I was mad. Every great genius is mad upon the subject in which he is greatest. The unsuccessful madman is disgraced and called a lunatic." Fitz-James O'Brien, The Diamond Lens (1858)
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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November 19th, 2016 at 6:18:47 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


This was a totally different game, Hazard.

Modern craps was defined/codified by John H. Winn around 1910 (source: John Scarne).



Dan,

No disrespect to you or John Scarne, but I don't think modern craps is a "totally different" game than Hazard, according to numerous sources I find readily available. Here's one summary of the progression:

In the 17th Century, Hazard (the game of craps) became a huge pastime in England and you would see it being played in every tavern in England.

The name “Craps” came from the Frenchmen who changed the name from Hazard to distinguish them from the Englishmen. Craps is a version of the word “crabs” which describes a losing roll of 2.

John H. Winn developed the game further in the 19th Century and is known as the father of the modern game of craps we play in casinos today.


But, back to the original post, I don't think Winn originated the Pass bet (although it seems he may have been first to add the Don't bets). The Pass bet was anchored in the game long before John Winn worked his magic. My 2 cents.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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November 19th, 2016 at 7:23:58 AM permalink
Quote: LuckyPhow

Dan,

No disrespect to you or John Scarne, but I don't think modern craps is a "totally different" game than Hazard, according to numerous sources I find readily available. Here's one summary of the progression:

In the 17th Century, Hazard (the game of craps) became a huge pastime in England and you would see it being played in every tavern in England.

The name “Craps” came from the Frenchmen who changed the name from Hazard to distinguish them from the Englishmen. Craps is a version of the word “crabs” which describes a losing roll of 2.

John H. Winn developed the game further in the 19th Century and is known as the father of the modern game of craps we play in casinos today.


But, back to the original post, I don't think Winn originated the Pass bet (although it seems he may have been first to add the Don't bets). The Pass bet was anchored in the game long before John Winn worked his magic. My 2 cents.



True, the pass line concept is the same. But Winn added/modified the Field bet, allowed the place bets, added the don't pass, adjusted the payouts, and completely reorganized the layout, and we've been playing his [significantly different] creation ever since.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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November 19th, 2016 at 9:37:14 AM permalink
A question on page 1 remains unanswered. According to NJ rules, it is possible to continue to throw to resolve active come/don't come bets. The question is, what about the odds on those unresolved bets?

Also according to the NJ special rules for this situation, the puck goes to the Off side and remains there.

But since that is normal for a come out roll, as well as DC odds remaining on regardless of the puck, they should still be on for DCs and the player should be allowed to ask to have the odds turned on for comes, via a small On lammer.


For what it's worth, I think the scenario is not unrealistic. A Don't player could be playing alone, and have several DP and DC bets, make his point, and be tapped out. Would the casino force him to take down some of his odds so that he can make a line bet? I think not.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
Joined: May 19, 2016
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November 19th, 2016 at 9:56:59 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


Also according to the NJ special rules for this situation, the puck goes to the Off side and remains there.



DJ,

Having spent far more time reading NJ gaming rules than appropriate for any sane person, I certainly wouldn't want to suggest I have any insight as to what the NJ regulators think.

That notwithstanding, the irregular placement of the puck on the Don't in front of the (default) shooter is a "special" situation. Since there is no Pass/DP bet, this seems not to be a come-out roll. This special situation allows play to continue to resolve the outstanding Don't bets. Only that and nothing more.

But, I sure would like to know for sure. Both for what NJ games would do and for how this situation is handled in gaming regulations in other states. What a fascinating question.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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November 19th, 2016 at 12:08:01 PM permalink
Casinos will bend over backwards NOT to be determinant of a win or loss at craps. A shooter can pass the dice at any time including half way through a humungous roll with zillions of bets on the table. There is no obligation to shoot but there is an obligation that if you shoot there has to be a line bet.

The stick can order the dice passed and even if it goes all around the table, the casino does not want to both throw the dice and determine if its a valid roll. At an empty table the Box will beg passers by to roll but will not pick up the dice. Fundamental to all casino games is that the casino provides teh equipment and the personnel but its never going to be anything but chance determining the outcome of the bets. No collusion between house and players. Even teh table is empty, go grab a pretty girl to throw them but not the Box.

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