Hard ways

As I have posted here before, I help manage a charitable gaming event for a local non-profit. It’s real money gambling but of the $1-$10 variety. We have about 20 events per-year.

We do pretty well in craps however, there is always an argument from some players that they did not get paid on their hard-ways on the come-out roll. Our policy is that all hard-ways as well as pass line bets are off on the come out. We're happy to have them “work” if the player so indicates. This is well and good provided there are only a few hard-ways on the table. Most of the time though, there are many hard-ways on the table which requires a lammer to be placed on those working versus those not working. All this takes extra time which, in a charity game, is our most precious commodity. We want as many spins, rolls and/or hands played per-hour as the edge in all our games is tilted towards the house—certainly more than a regular casino.

On another thread, there were as many posters stating that hard-ways are always off on the come-out as there were that said that they work on the the come out? What is your experience?

Secondly, I am thinking about changing our rules to make hard-ways to always work on the come out. The thinking here is, as the house, we always want to be in a position to have the player “seven out”. And naturally, if a 7 is rolled on the come out, we would win ALL the hard-way bets, even though the pass line bets would win. Bottom line, we’re taking in money versus essentially, giving players a “free pass” with no risk other than the 2, 3, 12. So, with the hard-ways working, we would win on a 7 or a soft number. Of course, we would pay if the hard-way hits but, all our prop payouts are shaved by about 30% (again, it’s a charity game). Finally, I would put up signage stating “Hard-ways always work unless called off”.

All that said, I have several concerns about all this….

1. Am I going against the traditional rules by making hard-ways working on the come out?

2. We will now have a game where hard-ways are working where pass line bets are not. Whereas currently, both bet types were off on the come-out. Our dealers are mostly volunteer and I’m fearful that we're adding a new level of complexity to the game.

3. Currently, it fairly rare to have a player call out to have their hard-ways working on the come-out. As a result, putting out a lammer is not that big of a hassle. I’m fearful that players, being risk aversive, will frequent call to have their hard-ways off on the come out. This will require lammers to be put on all non working wagers, which again, causes delay in the action.

Finally, about 95% of our players are pass-line betters. With 15 or so players, I’m paying out to 14-15 players when a 7 is rolled on the come-out. At least now, I will be able to sweep any/all the working hard-ways that are in the middle.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

Quote: Riva

1. Am I going against the traditional rules by making hard-ways working on the come out?

In Vegas, hardways are working on the come-out roll.

Quote: Riva

2. We will now have a game where hard-ways are working where pass line bets are not. Whereas currently, both bet types were off on the come-out.

Do you mean Place bets?

My experience has been that there is almost uniform non-consistency on this. Perhaps Beethoven9th is correct that they are working on the come-out everywhere in Vegas, but I travel around a bit, and it seems like a coin flip on how the next casino will handle it as the default. I just always ask (or listen to the stickman's call) the first time the issue comes up, and then I know the story for that casino.

Now, I personally always have my hardways off on the come-out, whether that is the default or something I must call. If the default is "on", it only takes a couple of calls for a professional stickman to pick up the pattern and automatically mark mine "off". At the dealer rotation, the stick usually (at least often) passes such patterns on the the replacement.

Quote: Beethoven9th

In Vegas, hardways are working on the come-out roll.

Quote: Riva

2. We will now have a game where hard-ways are working where pass line bets are not. Whereas currently, both bet types were off on the come-out.

Do you mean Place bets?

yes sorry.. Place bets

Riva:

I don't know when "Vegas" changed from having the "Hardaways" working on the come out roll.

In 2006 and 7, I thought the hardaways were not working on the come out roll.

But in Dec 2013, they were working.

I could have faulty memory on the 2006-7 time frame. :)

I would post the sign on your table. Players should see what the rules are.

What are the rates on your table for the hardaways, 2/12, 3/11 and field?

SFB

Quote: SFB

Riva:

I don't know when "Vegas" changed from having the "Hardaways" working on the come out roll.

In 2006 and 7, I thought the hardaways were not working on the come out roll.

But in Dec 2013, they were working.

I could have faulty memory on the 2006-7 time frame. :)

I would post the sign on your table. Players should see what the rules are.

What are the rates on your table for the hardaways, 2/12, 3/11 and field?

SFB

hard 6 & hard 8 = 6:1

hard 4 & hard 10 = 5:1

2 & 12 = 20:1

3 & 11 = 10:1

any craps = 5:1

Field = 1:1, w/ 2 & 12 = 2:1

BTW the payouts are printed right in to the layout so, they look "official". I have been to chariy functions in the past where they simply put tape over the regular numbers and write in the shaved payout. It looks like hell.

Hardways working is a Vegas thing. Unless you're located in Vegas, leave them as not working. To do otherwise would invite arguments on the other side.

Also, in Vegas, the stickman usually reminds players that hardways are working. Elsewhere, there's no announcement - and no need.

If you really are having issues, make a sign stating that they are not working. Might as well also include place bets and come odds on the sign. Then again, you might want to remind people what the black side if the luck says...

Quote: Riva

hard 6 & hard 8 = 6:1

hard 4 & hard 10 = 5:1

2 & 12 = 20:1

3 & 11 = 10:1

any craps = 5:1

Field = 1:1, w/ 2 & 12 = 2:1

BTW the payouts are printed right in to the layout so, they look "official". I have been to chariy functions in the past where they simply put tape over the regular numbers and write in the shaved payout. It looks like hell.

Wow, that is harsh.

Does your organization just split the take with the charity organization that you work with, or is it a %, or how does that work?

SFB

Quote: SFB

Wow, that is harsh.

Does your organization just split the take with the charity organization that you work with, or is it a %, or how does that work?

SFB

Respectfully, it's not harsh. Players have fun. Nobody gets seriously hurt and, many players go home with more money that they came in with.

It's our own game..we don't split the take with anybody other than ourselves. 100% of the money passes through to the charity.

IIRC, even in 2008 and maybe 2009, many of the strip casino craps games were hardways NOT working on the come out roll. I think it was sometime around 2010 that they started working the hardways, as the default. And I agree with Doc, it is easy to find it both ways as you travel, although I am tending to find more places now work them by default. You have to call them off.

I would say that when I am playing the majority of the players do call them off. A few people have them working, but not many. I rarely bet hardways, but I call them off when I do.

As to your charity game, which way do most of the people at your games play your hardways?
The least amount of work for the dealers is to go with whatever the majority of the players usually do.

If the majority don't have them working, then I would make the default NOT Working, and post a sign saying so.
If the majority of the people want their hardways working, make the default Hardways Work, and post that sign instead.

Either way, I would post a sign for a charity event. Inexperienced dealers + inexperienced gamblers = argument.

Quote: Riva

Respectfully, it's not harsh. Player have fun. Nobody gets seriously hurt and, many players go home with more money that they came in with.

It's our own game..we don't split the take with anybody other than ourselves. 100% of the money passes through to the charity.

Respectfully, it IS very harsh. I understand it's for charity, so that's cool. But there's nothing like a worse bet to make the long shots in Vegas look pretty darn good :-)

FWIW, most players wouldn't have the single foggiest, nor care, what the house advantage is anyway. Evidence: people play the state lotteries.

Darth

Quote: SFB

Wow, that is harsh.

Does your organization just split the take with the charity organization that you work with, or is it a %, or how does that work?

SFB

I agree with Riva, it's not harsh at all. It's for charity, and all the players realize that. What else would anyone expect?

For everyone who thinks it's harsh, what's more harsh--asking for a donation with no chance for any type of return whatsoever, or playing that particular craps game with a chance to make some money?

I take it that the people complaining have never run a charity before.

deleted

^^^^^^^^^^
+1

Riva,

Out of curiosity, do you offer DP and DC and the ability to lay odds? At what X?

Darth

Quote: darthvader

Riva,

Out of curiosity, do you offer DP and DC and the ability to lay odds? At what X?

Darth

Darth...We offer don't pass but not don't come. The don't come spot is not even printed on the layout. We do not offer free odds bets although I have posted here previously about the advantages/disadvantages in doing so. This policy has been around since I started volunteering there many, many years ago.

There are several legitimate reasons for this policy:
1. While it puts more money in play, it provides the player with an advantage with no statical advantage going to the house, other than a bigger stack. Remember, it's a charity game.

2. While I mostly use professional dealers on craps, paying odds takes additional time to pay out. Time is our most precious commodity and we strive to get as many rolls, hands, spins in per-hour/night. Here, a dealer simply has to double up a bet, whatever amount it may be. That said, I have considered that in lieu of odds, allowing a player to double up their bet or taking the bet up to the table max. Be interested in anybody's thoughts on the latter.

3. On the occasion when we do have volunteer dealers on craps, there is no way on the planet they are going to be able to calculate payouts in an accurate and timely manner

As for the don't come..since we don't pay odds, it the exact same bet as a don't pass bet so, why confuse things?

Quote: Riva

hard 6 & hard 8 = 6:1

hard 4 & hard 10 = 5:1

2 & 12 = 20:1

3 & 11 = 10:1

any craps = 5:1

Field = 1:1, w/ 2 & 12 = 2:1

BTW the payouts are printed right in to the layout so, they look "official". I have been to chariy functions in the past where they simply put tape over the regular numbers and write in the shaved payout. It looks like hell.

wow what a rip off on these payouts.

hard 6 & hard 8 = 9 to 1

hard 4 & hard 10 = 7 to 1

2 & 12 = 30 to 1

3 & 11 = 15 to 1

any craps = 7 to 1

Field = 1:1, w/ 2 & 12 = 2 to 1

Quote: Riva

As for the don't come..since we don't pay odds, it the exact same bet as a don't pass bet so, why confuse things?

Actually, the DC works the same way as the DP, but they are different bets.

Quote: CrapsGenious

wow what a rip off on these payouts.

Hey "genious", it's for CHARITY. How much have you donated to any charity????

Quote: Beethoven9th

Actually, the DC works the same way as the DP, but they are different bets.


Hey "genious", it's for CHARITY. How much have you donated to any charity????

Ok Ok, I take it back, I take it back :P

Quote: CrapsGenious

Ok Ok, I take it back, I take it back :P

Actually, we shave payouts across the room. We have two 20' double-roulette tables. Each will handle about 20 players. The payouts are shaved by about 33%. So, on a straight up number, the player gets $125 on a $5 bet. That buys a lot of draft beer!

On blackjack, the house takes ties however, we pay double on a blackjack (versus 3:2). Why? because many people bet just $1 and we don't have .50 chips. Plus, simply paying double saves TIME! Taking ties is bigger than paying double on BJ's.

Also on blackjack...we use 8-deck shoes. Dealers NEVER shuffle. When the shoe is empty, we simply bring out a new fully-shuffled shoe to the table and take the old shoe back to another area, in full view of everybody, to re-shuffle. We used those 6-deck auto shuffling machines. At our rate, they last about 6 months then die.

Why? In the past, a BJ table used to be down as much as 20 minutes per-hour shuffling. Cards flying around everywhere and even players shuffling to speed things up. It was a fiasco. Now, a table is ALWAYS working albeit with a new dealer rotated in about every 30 minutes or so. We own 20 BJ tables and probably have about 100 8-deck shoes. Cards are donated by a local casino (used) by the pallet and we typically toss them out at the end of every event.

Now, if I could just get my hands on a couple of used ChipStar roulette chip sorters!

Quote: Beethoven9th

I agree with Riva, it's not harsh at all. It's for charity, and all the players realize that. What else would anyone expect?

For everyone who thinks it's harsh, what's more harsh--asking for a donation with no chance for any type of return whatsoever, or playing that particular craps game with a chance to make some money?

I take it that the people complaining have never run a charity before.

That's why I asked how the split works.

And, As a matter of fact, I actually run a charity, and I am interested in making money for said charity.

But Riva answer about the split doesn't make sense to me. And I am interested in understanding.

He works/volunteers for a company that owns many different gaming tables, one of which is craps.

A charity contracts with his firm to set up these tables for a charity event. There is a $15k cap on the amount for chips that can be sold to these events.

I presume the charity gets this initial $15k. Then the players go play, and hopefully lose all their money, just like the various payoffs have been calculated to do.... Not a problem, it goes to charity.. Personally, I can sell more raffle tickets then I can get straight cash donations.

Does the charity pay a flat fee to Riva's organization to show up? Say, $1000 or $2000 each event? Or, is it some other arrangement?

So that is where I am stuck.

Thank you for answers you are willing to give, Riva.

SFB

Quote: SFB

That's why I asked how the split works.

And, As a matter of fact, I actually run a charity, and I am interested in making money for said charity.

But Riva answer about the split doesn't make sense to me. And I am interested in understanding.

He works/volunteers for a company that owns many different gaming tables, one of which is craps.

A charity contracts with his firm to set up these tables for a charity event. There is a $15k cap on the amount for chips that can be sold to these events.

I presume the charity gets this initial $15k. Then the players go play, and hopefully lose all their money, just like the various payoffs have been calculated to do.... Not a problem, it goes to charity.. Personally, I can sell more raffle tickets then I can get straight cash donations.

Does the charity pay a flat fee to Riva's organization to show up? Say, $1000 or $2000 each event? Or, is it some other arrangement?

So that is where I am stuck.

Thank you for answers you are willing to give, Riva.

SFB

SFP...I don't own a company. I, like most everybody else, am a volunteer. The charity (a private school) owns all of the gaming equipment. Why? We have been doing "Vegas" fundraising for decades and will continue to do so in the future. Perhaps as many as 20 events per-year. We have found that it is far better to own all the equipment versus renting. The stuff from the rental companies is typically beat to hell and dirty. Plus, it's expensive. So, in essence, we can put on an event with virtually no overhead, including the building. All that translates to a more profitable event.

Basically, we allocate a percentage of our gambling revenue to purchasing and/or refurbishing our gaming equipment. If I could post pictures here, I would. Our stuff rivals that of any casino anywhere. Remember, we're selling sizzle, not steak. Players are amazed when the come in for an evening of casual gaming. A few months ago, a friend of the school donated 2, brand new 32" roulette wheels. They are frick'n gorgeous! We spent $700 to have 2 custom, padded storage crates built for them. We will use these wheels for decades after I'm gone.

Some may ask how we can get volunteers for so big an event and for so many days of the year. Actually, it's not that difficult. Many of our volunteers are parents of former students and love to come back to contribute--mostly to deal BJ. One fellow has been dealing BJ for over 30 years! My kid graduated from there 10 years ago and I'm still there. I'm the guy who tries to squeeze more juice out of every lemon. A you can see, I enjoy my job. Plus, I'm semi-retired.

For parents of current students, it's a slightly different type of "volunteerism". Each parent is required to provide 20 hours of service to the school per-year. 10 of those hours must be at a huge fair we put on every spring over the 4-day Memorial day weekend. It's the largest high school fair in the USA. If a parent decides that they don't have the time and/or desire to put in 20 hours per-year, that's OK. However, the student's tuition goes up by 2 grand!

As for the $15,000... that is a state law. No more than $15,000 in artificial money (chips) chips can be sold on a given day. I am working in the state legislature to have this wager limit increased or ideally, eliminated. There may be some push back there because of all the abuses that have been occurring here in Michigan in the "poker rooms". A whole different thread.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

It used to be that each charity could have up to 16 days per year max. Did this get changed?

I think that 16 is the correct number. At our institution however, we probably have 25 licensed 501c3 entities on premises, all falling under the umbrella of the main organization. That is done to keep each entity, its respective mission (and its money) separate.

Technically, we could have an event every day of the year if we wanted to. We have the facilities and the equipment but not the volunteers to make it all happen. Besides, that would put us in the same category as the poker rooms which conflicts with the overall mission of the organization. Charity gaming, at least the way we offer it, works in moderation. The poker room model is very much different. Regrettably, a few bad apples are messing it up for everybody else that play by the rules. There really needs to be two sets of regulations, specifically, rules for poker and rules for all other charitable gaming events. That said, the single most important thing that will protect the interests of all charitable gaming going forward is to substantially increase and/or eliminate the current per-day wager limit. Think about it!

deleted

Quote: Riva

SFP...I don't own a company. I, like most everybody else, am a volunteer. The charity (a private school) owns all of the gaming equipment. Why? We have been doing "Vegas" fundraising for decades and will continue to do so in the future. Perhaps as many as 20 events per-year. We have found that it is far better to own all the equipment versus renting. The stuff from the rental companies is typically beat to hell and dirty. Plus, it's expensive. So, in essence, we can put on an event with virtually no overhead, including the building. All that translates to a more profitable event.

Basically, we allocate a percentage of our gambling revenue to purchasing and/or refurbishing our gaming equipment. If I could post pictures here, I would. Our stuff rivals that of any casino anywhere. Remember, we're selling sizzle, not steak. Players are amazed when the come in for an evening of casual gaming. A few months ago, a friend of the school donated 2, brand new 32" roulette wheels. They are frick'n gorgeous! We spent $700 to have 2 custom, padded storage crates built for them. We will use these wheels for decades after I'm gone.

Some may ask how we can get volunteers for so big an event and for so many days of the year. Actually, it's not that difficult. Many of our volunteers are parents of former students and love to come back to contribute--mostly to deal BJ. One fellow has been dealing BJ for over 30 years! My kid graduated from there 10 years ago and I'm still there. I'm the guy who tries to squeeze more juice out of every lemon. A you can see, I enjoy my job. Plus, I'm semi-retired.

For parents of current students, it's a slightly different type of "volunteerism". Each parent is required to provide 20 hours of service to the school per-year. 10 of those hours must be at a huge fair we put on every spring over the 4-day Memorial day weekend. It's the largest high school fair in the USA. If a parent decides that they don't have the time and/or desire to put in 20 hours per-year, that's OK. However, the student's tuition goes up by 2 grand!

As for the $15,000... that is a state law. No more than $15,000 in artificial money (chips) chips can be sold on a given day. I am working in the state legislature to have this wager limit increased or ideally, eliminated. There may be some push back there because of all the abuses that have been occurring here in Michigan in the "poker rooms". A whole different thread.

Riva:

Ok, that makes much better sense.

Why just do Bingo, when you can do it all!

SFB

Quote: SFB

Riva:

Ok, that makes much better sense.

Why just do Bingo, when you can do it all!

SFB

We do bingo too, but just during our big 4-day event in the spring.