Under what circumstances can a shooter be told that they are "done shooting?"

Long story short, I was recently playing craps in Las Vegas on the strip. On my 5th established point, I threw five 8's, on the fifth 8, I was told by the pit boss "You're done rolling."

Initially, I was confused and thought that he was just playfully commenting on my run of good luck, but he was totally serious. He insisted that the last roll was "The third time that the wall was not touched by both dice." I do not know if this was the third time, but in this particular case he was correct. The roll was honored and bets were paid, which added to my confusion. In addition, I had probably rolled 20+ times at this juncture. People had been making larger odds bets and each die hit a large stack of odds betters at the far end of the table, then rebounded back in my direction, not forward or sideways enough to strike a wall.

After a surprisingly long discussion (that bordered on argument from my perspective, even though, I only addressed him politely and tried my best to show respect for him personally, his job, the casino, and the rules), we agreed that I would cease rolling if, at any point, I failed to hit a wall with both dice. I proceeded to throw them like a 1985 Roger Clemens until crapping out, at which time I colored up and left... along with 3/4 of the table.

I was under the assumption that "no roll" would be called and/or that I would be warned in advance. I also believe that some states have a "good faith" rule for the shooter, that would not invalidate such rolls.

Any thoughts?

deleted

I totally agree that something should be done if shooters are willfully disobeying the rules. In hindsight, a friendly comment on my first errant roll would have almost certainly prevented our uncomfortable conversation, so would have more specificity when a comment was made.

I typically lob my dice and try to get them to hit near the far pass line. In this case, there were 8 bettors per side, 4 on each end, so as people press their bets, it's not a given that both dice will successfully navigate through the four stacks of chips guarding the back wall.

To me, it was much more a case of poor customer service (due to lack of foresight, lack of communication, and poor word choice) than a violation of my gambling rights, so to speak. I just wondered if there is are specific guidelines for this, it is handled on a casino-by-casino basis, and if a player could ever lose the right to shoot mid-streak.

I play a fair amount of craps, but in the future, I think I'll just proactively apologize when a die is short and make it clear that it was not intentional and that I will make adjustments to prevent it in the future.

Sounds to me like the crew was clueless with what you were doing, but surveillance didn't like it and started talking to the pit boss getting him worked up...

You handled it VERY well.
Missing is the interim escalating warnings of "weak roll" or " suspicious roll" wherein they comment upon the failure to hit the back wall but do not declare any sort of No Roll. If there were no such escalating comments, then shame on the Box. All he was worried about was that you were winning.

I think the abrupt departure of the rest of the table shows they pretty much had the same sentiments: the casino is sweating the money and just doesn't like the fact that a player was winning and winning big.

Quote: FleaStiff

You handled it VERY well.
Missing is the interim escalating warnings of "weak roll" or " suspicious roll" wherein they comment upon the failure to hit the back wall but do not declare any sort of No Roll. If there were no such escalating comments, then shame on the Box. All he was worried about was that you were winning.

I think the abrupt departure of the rest of the table shows they pretty much had the same sentiments: the casino is sweating the money and just doesn't like the fact that a player was winning and winning big.

Yesterday, I had die down, and they were so busy looking for one die, that the left the other die on the table.

When I made my next roll, there was already another die on the table.

They called the roll, and I think I got paid, but there were three dice at the end of the table.

I asked the box man, "what would you have done if the dice had touched and you couldn't tell which was which."

(The boxman was Philip yesterday at the Silverton) and he said, "honestly Aaron, if the roll had been a seven out, I would have called no roll, and if it was a winner, I would call it in your favor."

This is the type of courtesy I expect from a casino where I go every day. I continued along that line and I said to Joe who was dealing to me at the time, "wow if I could just take the best two out of three dice on every roll, I might have a chance at this game."

Joe is one of the best dealers at the casino IMO, and Joe says, "Yeah I think a lot of people would like that!"

When I roll a short roll, or even two, or three in a row that look very suspicious, I take the flip side, and _I_ say "short and suspicious" or "that is the definition of a suspicious looking roll." I honestly cannot even remember the last time anyone at that casino has made a point at giving me a problem with my throws. I absolutely know exactly what they expect from me, and if I get a shorty in with a payday, I try to say something before they do and let them know that I already know and so why waste your breath?

The dice haven't been taken away from me in over a year by now. And I don't even think I have heard the "all the way down" comment in months.

I have had dice taken away from me twice in my career. One of those two times was Anatoly at the Silverton. He said "all the way down" but my throw was fine, it was just the way it bounced that was bad. I chose to say, "you'd think they would allow the boxman to use good judgement on calling bad throws, but they just have to strictly obey the rules no matter what is going on. It is just so sad." That's when he took the dice away. LOL.

I don't remember the other time, but I think it was pretty early on before I knew much.

What is fun to watch is when the shooter is throwing from the DP, and has been making points. I have seen them switch dice, ask for cocktail service, etc., but the one that USUALLY seems to work is the shooter will throw a 'shortie'. "Seven out, line away". Funny thing is, I have NEVER heard a box reprimand the shooter in those cases

The superstitions are such an ingrained aspect of craps. It is fun to watch.

We need to summarize this thread.

The dice can be taken away from a shooter by a floorman, a boxman, or by a request of a crap dealer on the game to a sympatethic floorman. Doesn't matter how you feel about it, doesn't matter if you agree with it, doesn't matter if you're on a hot roll, and you feel that it is wrong.

The dice go to the next shooter.

To put things into perspective, when I was in the U.S. Army in the early 1980's, in Artillery school I was told that an officer with the lowly rank of 2nd Lieutennant can, in a combat situation, order by himself, either order the launch of an artillery tactical nuclear weapon, or call in an air strike with as much firepower. About 20 Kilotons by picking up a radio, and issuing a single directive.

To hear that there are resentments or issues in cases where a player is NOT asked to leave the casino or dice game, or taken off a game, or anything of that nature - but not to shoot the dice anymore and pass it to the next shooter, the player cannot operate on the basis that "this here game is mine to run" in a live casino game situation - when a floorman is saying otherwise. Getting the dice taken from you by some kid floorman is not an atomic strike by some kid 2nd lieutennant.

The dice get passed. And as a dice player you may turn into Marie Antoinette This is an outrage! I hereby summons my Court Officers and Fellow Crap Players!!!

Don't like it? Color up, and go to another casino, or better yet, run your own casino house. Being told that you're not holding onto the dice anymore should not be an atom bomb "end of the world" situation for you on a Saturday Night. There is a reason for it, a reason to Pass the dice that is valid to the dealers and the casino operator, and if you have a problem, you may file a complaint with the casino manager and the Gaming Control Board. Good luck. And It will be looked into, and a result will be issued: usually a Buffet comp for two, so enjoy!

I have never in my life had the dice taken away from me when playing (I generally find it is VERY easy to hold on to the dice if you are not takling shots or pulling some sort of a stunt), but I myself requested to remove the dice from the shooter on a game while dealing (with floorman's approval, something along the lines of "the guy's a shot-taking jerk ruining our clean game," with a response of "yeah, you're right, the dice go to the next shooter..." kind of thing, to huge indignation and outrage on the game - "ooh...I've dropped my pearls, and it is all your fault" Marie Antionette kind of thing, when it happens...), only if and when some player is pulling some dumb-ass cheating or shot-taking stunt. This includes being unable to hit the back wall with the dice, a ridiculously easy thing to do in a tub.

If you're winning, then you've already won, and also need to be on your best behavior at some places without getting out of line. If you've won and the dice were taken away "for no good reason that I CAN SEE!", then take down your bets and leave a winner, and go someplace else. Usually, when you make an issue of outrage over some petty game issue where you might be wrong, you are not only giving yourself the punishment you deserve, but you would have been better off as a straight, flat-out loser from the get-go, emotionally and other-wise and petty-wise.

Now, the thing here is to not claim on a forum that "I was So wronged by the [Evil, nefarious, dispicable, disgracefull, dark-side, good-for-nothing, casino hall/casino/establishment, yada, yada, yada,] - as I was a GREAT guy who was done an outrageous injustice," -

but perhaps to show us some proof of incident, a description that is SENDABLE to a casino manager or the Gaming Control Board.

As of this point in time, is someone is not all that functional within a casino without such issues, I will say:
1. Get Casino results to your satisfaction with presenting valid proof; or,
2. Get a life outside of casino life, if it isn;t working, or;
3. Actually be well-functioning in the casino environment. Sqeaky player wheels are present here at this forum to some degree. If the dice get passed on you, it's for a reason you must accept, if you wish to continue playing craps. Deal with it, learn from it, grow with it without noise! Hitting the back freaking wall isn't that hard if done in good faith.
4. Roll with it with the next shooter. He may be hot, and besides, you know how to bet.

It seems odd that they would want you to pass the dice without giving you a warning. In the end, the compromise they gave you was a warning.

It is also odd that they think it's suspicious for a die to fail to hit the wall after hitting a chip stack. Isn't the point that they want the dice to be deflected in some manner to further randomize things?

Dan, don't be gullible.
Only the president has the power to decide on the use of tactical nuclear weapons.
It has to do with the threat of escalation.
Look into it if you don't believe me.

Quote: WongBo

Only the president has the power to decide on the use of tactical nuclear weapons.
Look into it if you don't believe me.

No. And it is not that I don't believe you. Perhaps now, - and I would hope so!
I was in HHQ (headquarters battery) 1/258 field Artillery in 1983.
At that time, artillery-based nuclear shells of 20KT+ (which could knock out a square kilometer) were a part of combat artillery munitions, along with ICM (Improved Conventional Munitions) and WP (White Phosphorus). And a 2nd Lieutennant and above authorized the charging of the guns with the type of munitions determined to be appropriate for the situation. I was a Fire Direction and Control Specialist (E4), and had to learn and accept this while serving in the U.S. Army at that time. Much in the same way that a 59-year old executive and millionaire can be booted off of a dice game by a 22 year old floorman making $30,000 a year.

In the same way, a 22 year old floorman can decide if a crap player passes the dice, or even if he is done for the night. We have such a kid as a floorman on our floor, and he is MORE patient than some of the old-school types - considering his massive authority to shut down and "dash the hopes" of a hopped up crap player. He can actually bring up the lid on a crap table, and send the crap dealers off to deal three card poker, if its in his opinion to do so. Doesn't matter what any player has to say about it. And this too doesn't need the Casino manager's, - or the President's - authorization. Certainly no player's opinion on it, either.

WongBo, This is how I mean it, and described the situation - a kid wielding a lot of power on the floor of the arena.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

It seems odd that they would want you to pass the dice without giving you a warning. In the end, the compromise they gave you was a warning.

It is also odd that they think it's suspicious for a die to fail to hit the wall after hitting a chip stack. Isn't the point that they want the dice to be deflected in some manner to further randomize things?

My points exactly, I wasn't sliding the dice, they were airborne and then struck objects. It is possible that I was warned without knowing it, but I was playing with 4 friends and no one recalled a prior warning or any kind, from anyone.

Earlier in this session, a newbie craps player that was having a great time with his girlfriend asked to color up a bit so that it would be easier to track his winnings. The dealer obliged and this same pit boss berated both the player and the dealer for the color up and started insisting that the young couple was done playing because coloring up is indicative of the end of a session. After profusing apologizing, the player was not forced to leave. Again, I get it. However, at a low limit craps table, cut the first timers some slack.

It just goes back to customer service, which was consistently lacking and is why I won't return to this particular casino.

Years ago at MGM I failed to hit the back wall with both dice several times. I was warned but the dice were not taken from me. Later, at a different table, a pit boss came to the table and said "if Mr M fails to hit the back wall with both dice, he can't shoot anymore."

About seven years ago at Bellagio, I hit the back wall with both dice, but the dice did not bounce off the back wall a minimum of six inches. I was told by the boxman and crew members that if the dice don't bounce off the back wall a minimum of six inches it would be a no-roll. Several times my dice hit the back wall but failed to bounce off the "required six inches." After a dispute, and intervention by a pit boss, the table crew was disciplined, the casino apologized. But they didn't make good on several numbers that were no-rolled.

Years ago at NYNY a floorman warned me not to set the dice. My dice not only hit the back wall but they were bouncing all over the table. And after hitting several passes -- with the dice bouncing all over the place -- the box man said to me "you're through" and took the dice from me.

My thought is that you (deedubbs) were playing like someone who obviously knew what was going on so they didn't feel the need to tell you to hit the back wall... which is a rule pretty much everywhere. This is the first I'm hearing of the six inches rule.

In reality though, you should get a warning at every table and said warning should not be given before you start even rolling (as someone mentioned). The casino should have a right to tell you to get lost at anytime, at which point you also have the right to bitch about it. I would appreciate people to give casino names, because giving heat for good rolls isn't something I want from any place that I gamble.

Mistakes happen, I "set" the dice and sometimes don't hit the back wall. In fact, I've gotten in trouble for taking too long to set dice (I colored up and left).

If a casino warns me after the first or second time, that really rubs me the wrong way and I usually leave. Three times in a row I completely understand.

I agree with the above. The OP should name names!

Is there a halfway plausible reason why the casino should not be named?

Now that I am shooting from the immediate stick left position, it is a very soft, backhand toss for me to shoot the dice. My objective is to land them between the mirror and the pass line (where you place your odds). I land them about a foot short, they bounce up to the wall and stop. Most of the time they sit within 1 foot of the corner. I have never been told to make them bounce 6" from the wall. I have been 'reminded' that both dice must hit the back wall occasionally, but even that has not happened in the past year. I have never witnessed anyone get warned for not hitting the wall when the dice have hit a chip stack!

Now that I am thinking about it, I don't think I have even been reminded about it, ever since I have started betting passline w/ odds for the dealers early in my sessions!

Not sure it would help where the OP was playing though. For a box or suit to berate a new player for coloring up while continuing to stay at the table is uncalled for. Oh sure, it will slow the game down, as the player will later on probably need to ask for change, but come on. It sounds more like sweat the money, and they were just pissed that the player had been winning.

You tell me... my opinion is that my experience was most likely the result of a maniacal pit boss and not coming from the top. I suspect that, if his treatment of players (I saw him provide plenty of poor customer service to others) continues, he is likely to be replaced.

The remaining staff there was always super friendly and hospitable, so I do not wish to make them the collateral damage.

I generally short-shoot on purpose, attempting to just 'touch' the back wall; no bouncing and scattering all over the place. With this said, and knowing the rules, our local casino warns a few times and then takes the dice from me and passes them. I understand and respect this. Now when I buy in, the pit boss gently whispers and reminds me to hit the back wall or the dice will be taken from me. I understand this and agree with them. Another local casino they have banned me from shooting the dice, but allow me to still play the game on other shooters.
In A/C, I do get some heat, not a lot, but have NEVER had the dice taken from me. They just give heat and attempt to fluster my throwing. I laugh with them and remind them just how heavy those dice are... how the recent flu shot hurts the shoulder... ooops, they slipped.

I short-shoot on purpose because the last time I tried to hit the back wall, I wound up putting three dice out on a single point. So far, no heat for the former.