Black Jack Card Counting Failure

I have been playing BJ for almost a year now. I have been struggling with trying to card count and have mostly had negative results. Most of the games I have been able to find to play and count have also been high minimums and I ended up losing thousands of dollars. It has kind of put me off on BJ in general.

Generally my strategy has been as follows:
1) I would raise my bet as a multiple of the count: Bet = Count * Table Minimum
2) For single deck game I would use the True Count = Running Count
3) Follow illustrious 18 deviations from basic strategy

Is 1) and 2) correct or acceptable? Too conservative?

Find a $5 shoe game. Indeed, it will be a H17 game, but will likely offer DAS and surrender. The game is beatable, but don't expect to make much $$ at all. Just play, gain experience, and develop your act. That's what I'm doing.

Hopefully, the more experienced counters will weigh-in with better advice; but that's my 2-cents. Good luck!

Quote: paisiello

I have been playing BJ for almost a year now. I have been struggling with trying to card count and have mostly had negative results. Most of the games I have been able to find to play and count have also been high minimums and I ended up losing thousands of dollars. It has kind of put me off on BJ in general.

Generally my strategy has been as follows:
1) I would raise my bet as a multiple of the count: Bet = Count * Table Minimum
2) For single deck game I would use the True Count = Running Count
3) Follow illustrious 18 deviations from basic strategy

Is 1) and 2) correct or acceptable? Too conservative?

Keep records. Playing for almost a year doesn't mean much unless you know the amount of hours.

Penetration is very important and can vary greatly from dealer to dealer. Rather than sitting at the first table you see, take a few moments to find a dealer with good pen. Decent rules with lousy pen won't cut it.

Here are three more things to remember: Bankroll, Bankroll, Bankroll !

I have been winning consistently for many years using John Patrick's methods. I have become an emotionless robot when I play. Every move I make is pre-determined (no hunches) and every bet I make is pre-determined. It may not be as much fun playing the game, but the three hour ride home is great knowing how much more money is in my pocket.

He is the only author to say you don't always have to split Aces and Eights. I have read the other reviewers talking about computers and statistics. My degree in finance has me familiar with both, but it was only John Patrick's common sense explanations that stopped me from getting burnt anymore playing those hands. How many times have you split these hands only to get killed? But, it was the thing that you were "supposed to do". He makes you look at why you should be making moves in a logical sense, not because the computer said that you should and that's the way it has been handed down.

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What ? OMG, don't tell me you play BJ without charting the tables first, or at least the dealers. REALLY ??

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No Fair Damn, can't trick nobody anymore

Quote: paisiello

I have been playing BJ for almost a year now. I have been struggling with trying to card count and have mostly had negative results. Most of the games I have been able to find to play and count have also been high minimums and I ended up losing thousands of dollars. It has kind of put me off on BJ in general.

Generally my strategy has been as follows:
1) I would raise my bet as a multiple of the count: Bet = Count * Table Minimum
2) For single deck game I would use the True Count = Running Count
3) Follow illustrious 18 deviations from basic strategy

Is 1) and 2) correct or acceptable? Too conservative?

When you say "struggling," do you just mean that your results have been bad, or that you are struggling to keep the count, make playing decisions quickly, etc.? If you are having trouble with the mechanics of counting, you need to practice more at home. You should be able to count down 6 decks with near-perfect accuracy over and over again in your own home before you even think about trying it in a casino. So first off, make sure your skills are adequate.

Secondly, What's your total bankroll? When you say "high minimums" what do you mean? For some people, $10 is a high minimum, while for others $100 isn't enough to satisfy their desire for action.

Given that the minimums seem high to you, it's very possible that you are over-betting your bankroll, and thus are playing with a risk of ruin that is unacceptably high. But it's impossible to tell without specifics. If you don't feel comfortable posting the specifics of your bankroll, you can just reduce everything to units (i.e. use your standard table minimum as 1 unit and then describe your bankroll in terms of those units).

Thirdly, as for (1), it sounds like you might actually need to be more aggressive with your high bets, especially if you are playing shoe games. To beat a shoe game you need a 1-10 spread at the absolute minimum, and you definitely shouldn't be waiting for a TC of +10 before getting your 10 unit bet out there. The best plan of action is to get to know a well-respected counting system, and bet according to the author's suggested betting ramps. Usually the author has done all the sims and will state in the book exactly what the EV, RoR, etc. are for that ramp. This is what I do, with the KISS III system described in Blackjack Bluebook II. Or buy the CVCX software and do your own simulations. I have been meaning to do this, but haven't gotten around to it.

Lastly, it is entirely possible for a competent card counter to have an entire year in the red. It's called variance; casual gambles love it because it's their only chance to win. Casinos love it because without it, no one would ever play. And APs hate it because without it they would always win once they find an edge.

I am by no means a professional or expert card counter, but I would rate my skill as "intermediate," and I have read at least 10 books about blackjack. So I feel like I have enough of a handle on the academic aspects to give you this advice with confidence.

I apologize in advance for the formating:

Summary of Recorded Sessions

Session # -Date -Location- Hours Played- Average Bet Made- Result- Hands played /hour - Hands played - Total Action - %Win/ Loss- Estimated House Edge- Expected Loss
1 1-Jul-11 Golden Nugget Laughlin NV 0.5 $5.00 $- 40 20 $100.00 0.0% -0.729% $(0.73)
2 1-Jul-11 Edgewater Laughlin NV 2 $5.00 $50.00 40 80 $400.00 12.5% -0.729% $(2.92)
3 4-Sep-11 Aqua Caliente Rancho Mirage CA 2 $10.00 $100.00 40 80 $800.00 12.5% -0.729% $(5.83)
4 7-Oct-01 Hustler Los Angeles CA 0.5 $25.00 $(100.00) 50 25 $625.00 -16.0% -4.627% $(28.92)
5 7-Oct-01 Hustler Los Angeles CA 0.5 $10.00 $(100.00) 60 30 $300.00 -33.3% -10.627% $(31.88)
6 7-Oct-01 Normandie Gardena CA 1 $10.00 $(100.00) 40 40 $400.00 -25.0% -10.627% $(42.51)
7 14-Oct-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 10 $5.00 $(200.00) 50 500 $2,500.00 -8.0% -0.729% $(18.23)
8 31-Oct-11 Hustler Los Angeles CA 0.5 $25.00 $(100.00) 50 25 $625.00 -16.0% -4.627% $(28.92)
9 31-Oct-11 Hustler Los Angeles CA 0.5 $10.00 $(100.00) 60 30 $300.00 -33.3% -10.627% $(31.88)
10 11-Nov-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 2.5 $15.00 $(300.00) 50 125 $1,875.00 -16.0% -0.729% $(13.67)
11 11-Nov-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 2 $15.00 $- 50 100 $1,500.00 0.0% -0.729% $(10.94)
12 23-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 2 $25.00 $(152.50) 30 60 $1,500.00 -10.2% -4.627% $(69.41)
13 24-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 2.5 $25.00 $(916.00) 40 100 $2,500.00 -36.6% -4.627% $(115.68)
14 25-Nov-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 2 $10.00 $(200.00) 50 100 $1,000.00 -20.0% -0.729% $(7.29)
15 25-Nov-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 8 $16.50 $345.00 40 320 $5,280.00 6.5% -0.729% $(38.49)
16 26-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 0.5 $25.00 $(200.00) 30 15 $375.00 -53.3% -4.627% $(17.35)
17 26-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 2 $10.00 $(175.00) 40 80 $800.00 -21.9% -10.627% $(85.02)
18 26-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 1 $46.88 $(325.00) 30 30 $1,406.25 -23.1% -2.760% $(38.82)
19 1-Dec-11 Normandie Gardena CA 2 $12.00 $(125.00) 40 80 $960.00 -13.0% -8.960% $(86.02)
20 1-Dec-11 Normandie Gardena CA 1 $27.50 $(475.00) 30 30 $825.00 -57.6% -4.263% $(35.17)
21 9-Dec-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 5.5 $17.40 $170.00 30 165 $2,871.00 5.9% -0.729% $(20.93)
22 11-Dec-11 Commerce Commerce CA 4.5 $10.00 $(71.00) 40 180 $1,800.00 -3.9% -10.627% $(191.29)
23 16-Dec-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 5 $15.75 $(660.00) 30 150 $2,362.50 -27.9% -6.976% $(164.81)
24 14-Jan-12 Excalibur Las Vegas CA 1 $15.00 $(100.00) 30 30 $450.00 -22.2% -0.627% $(2.82)
25 14-Jan-12 Excalibur Las Vegas CA 1 $10.00 $- 30 30 $300.00 0.0% -1.927% $(5.78)
26 14-Jan-12 MGM Grand Las Vegas CA 1 $15.00 $(30.00) 30 30 $450.00 -6.7% -0.627% $(2.82)
27 15-Jan-12 Rio Las Vegas CA 2 $15.00 $130.00 30 60 $900.00 14.4% -0.397% $(3.57)
28 25-Feb-12 Pechanga Temecula CA 8 $15.00 $(200.00) 30 240 $3,600.00 -5.6% -0.729% $(26.24)
29 10-Mar-12 Colorado Belle Laughlin CA 1 $5.00 $60.00 40 40 $200.00 30.0% -0.690% $(1.38)
30 10-Mar-12 Edgewater Laughlin CA 2 $12.00 $160.00 40 80 $960.00 16.7% -0.690% $(6.62)
31 10-Mar-12 Riviera Laughlin CA 3.5 $9.25 $45.00 40 140 $1,295.00 3.5% -0.690% $(8.94)
TOTALS 31 8.3 months 77.5 $13.02 $(3,569.50) 38.90 3,015 $39,259.75 -9.1% -2.79% $(1,144.86)

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Quote: paisiello

I apologize in advance for the formating:

Summary of Recorded Sessions

Session # -Date -Location- Hours Played- Average Bet Made- Result- Hands played /hour - Hands played - Total Action - %Win/ Loss- Estimated House Edge- Expected Loss
1 1-Jul-11 Golden Nugget Laughlin NV 0.5 $5.00 $- 40 20 $100.00 0.0% -0.729% $(0.73)
2 1-Jul-11 Edgewater Laughlin NV 2 $5.00 $50.00 40 80 $400.00 12.5% -0.729% $(2.92)
3 4-Sep-11 Aqua Caliente Rancho Mirage CA 2 $10.00 $100.00 40 80 $800.00 12.5% -0.729% $(5.83)
4 7-Oct-01 Hustler Los Angeles CA 0.5 $25.00 $(100.00) 50 25 $625.00 -16.0% -4.627% $(28.92)
5 7-Oct-01 Hustler Los Angeles CA 0.5 $10.00 $(100.00) 60 30 $300.00 -33.3% -10.627% $(31.88)
6 7-Oct-01 Normandie Gardena CA 1 $10.00 $(100.00) 40 40 $400.00 -25.0% -10.627% $(42.51)
7 14-Oct-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 10 $5.00 $(200.00) 50 500 $2,500.00 -8.0% -0.729% $(18.23)
8 31-Oct-11 Hustler Los Angeles CA 0.5 $25.00 $(100.00) 50 25 $625.00 -16.0% -4.627% $(28.92)
9 31-Oct-11 Hustler Los Angeles CA 0.5 $10.00 $(100.00) 60 30 $300.00 -33.3% -10.627% $(31.88)
10 11-Nov-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 2.5 $15.00 $(300.00) 50 125 $1,875.00 -16.0% -0.729% $(13.67)
11 11-Nov-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 2 $15.00 $- 50 100 $1,500.00 0.0% -0.729% $(10.94)
12 23-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 2 $25.00 $(152.50) 30 60 $1,500.00 -10.2% -4.627% $(69.41)
13 24-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 2.5 $25.00 $(916.00) 40 100 $2,500.00 -36.6% -4.627% $(115.68)
14 25-Nov-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 2 $10.00 $(200.00) 50 100 $1,000.00 -20.0% -0.729% $(7.29)
15 25-Nov-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 8 $16.50 $345.00 40 320 $5,280.00 6.5% -0.729% $(38.49)
16 26-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 0.5 $25.00 $(200.00) 30 15 $375.00 -53.3% -4.627% $(17.35)
17 26-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 2 $10.00 $(175.00) 40 80 $800.00 -21.9% -10.627% $(85.02)
18 26-Nov-11 Normandie Gardena CA 1 $46.88 $(325.00) 30 30 $1,406.25 -23.1% -2.760% $(38.82)
19 1-Dec-11 Normandie Gardena CA 2 $12.00 $(125.00) 40 80 $960.00 -13.0% -8.960% $(86.02)
20 1-Dec-11 Normandie Gardena CA 1 $27.50 $(475.00) 30 30 $825.00 -57.6% -4.263% $(35.17)
21 9-Dec-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 5.5 $17.40 $170.00 30 165 $2,871.00 5.9% -0.729% $(20.93)
22 11-Dec-11 Commerce Commerce CA 4.5 $10.00 $(71.00) 40 180 $1,800.00 -3.9% -10.627% $(191.29)
23 16-Dec-11 Pechanga Temecula CA 5 $15.75 $(660.00) 30 150 $2,362.50 -27.9% -6.976% $(164.81)
24 14-Jan-12 Excalibur Las Vegas CA 1 $15.00 $(100.00) 30 30 $450.00 -22.2% -0.627% $(2.82)
25 14-Jan-12 Excalibur Las Vegas CA 1 $10.00 $- 30 30 $300.00 0.0% -1.927% $(5.78)
26 14-Jan-12 MGM Grand Las Vegas CA 1 $15.00 $(30.00) 30 30 $450.00 -6.7% -0.627% $(2.82)
27 15-Jan-12 Rio Las Vegas CA 2 $15.00 $130.00 30 60 $900.00 14.4% -0.397% $(3.57)
28 25-Feb-12 Pechanga Temecula CA 8 $15.00 $(200.00) 30 240 $3,600.00 -5.6% -0.729% $(26.24)
29 10-Mar-12 Colorado Belle Laughlin CA 1 $5.00 $60.00 40 40 $200.00 30.0% -0.690% $(1.38)
30 10-Mar-12 Edgewater Laughlin CA 2 $12.00 $160.00 40 80 $960.00 16.7% -0.690% $(6.62)
31 10-Mar-12 Riviera Laughlin CA 3.5 $9.25 $45.00 40 140 $1,295.00 3.5% -0.690% $(8.94)
TOTALS 31 8.3 months 77.5 $13.02 $(3,569.50) 38.90 3,015 $39,259.75 -9.1% -2.79% $(1,144.86)

Well for one thing you should definitely be tracking your betting spread (low bet and high bet) instead of your "average bet." I can see you're using average bet to estimate your total action, but as far as I know, most pros don't bother tracking their average bet or their total action for a session. Much more important are the betting spread, hours played, and overall result (+/-).

Also why are you tracking the expected loss given the house edge? If you are a successful counter, your expected result should be positive. There's no reason to track what the average perfect BS player would expect from this game. You should be able to combine the total hands played with the rules of the specific game and your betting spread and system to get your expected gain from the session. Then, over time, a long time, your expected win from each session should approach your actual win.

Also, although it is hard to tell from your data, why are some of the Expected House Edges into the single digits? E.g. I see numbers in this column like -10.627%, -1.927%, -8.960%, -4.627%. I'm hoping you have some other definition of House Edge than I do, because you should never, EVER play anything over 1% if you are an AP (or anyone else, for that matter). Only 6-5 facsimiles of blackjack will go over a 1% house edge.

Quote: paisiello

I Most of the games I have been able to find to play and count have also been high minimums and I ended up losing thousands of dollars.

Cheater!

Quote: paisiello

I have been playing BJ for almost a year now. I have been struggling with trying to card count and have mostly had negative results. Most of the games I have been able to find to play and count have also been high minimums and I ended up losing thousands of dollars. It has kind of put me off on BJ in general.

Generally my strategy has been as follows:
1) I would raise my bet as a multiple of the count: Bet = Count * Table Minimum
2) For single deck game I would use the True Count = Running Count
3) Follow illustrious 18 deviations from basic strategy

Is 1) and 2) correct or acceptable? Too conservative?

2) The RC is 4 and 1/4 of the deck has been dealt: what is the TC? If you answered "4," then you honestly should not be playing single deck. SD games are very volatile, and most of the games these days are far from desirable, in terms of rules. Hi-Lo with an inaccurate TC and only the I18 will not cut it.

1) This will not work to gain a strong enough advantage for most shoe games, even ones with reasonably decent rules. Shoe games need to be attacked with a 1-12 spread at an absolute minimum, and in most games, your max bet should be coming out at a TC of 5 for a 1-12 spread. You're betting 5x your minimum bet when your max bet should be out, which is a big reason why you're not seeing the profits that you think you should.

I would strongly recommend you stop playing immediately and re-read the literature. A wise investment would be CVCX, which will help you to understand what results you can expect, what bankroll requirements you need to follow to maintain a desired level of risk (I suspect you're combining an odd mix of severely overbetting in negative and neutral counts and severely underbetting when you actually have the edge!). Practice and read until a) you're not struggling with the mechanical aspects of counting, b) you're adequately capitalized (or willing to play on a replenishable roll and understand the risks), and c) you have a firm understanding of fundamental card counting theory. For the latter, Stanford Wong's "Professional Blackjack" and Don Schlesinger's "Blackjack Attack (3rd Edition)" are considered very good resources.

Good luck!

Also, you've posted a log of DATES and LOCATIONS of casinos that you've played recently. Ditch this habit immediately if you want to count cards. Although these casinos would be wise to let you continue to play indefinitely (no offense intended, but it's very likely that you're currently playing a -EV game), you'll find that your action will not be tolerated if the casinos figure out that you're attempting to count, no matter how green you are.

Thanks for taking the time to look at this and give me some feedback.

I suppose I have the data for high and low bets buried in the spreadsheet. It seems the high bets can be irrelevant if the count rarely got high enough to use it which seems to be the case for example on 6 deck shoe games. It seems the average bet made is more important to keep track of.

I was keeping track of the expected loss using bascic strategy only as a baseline. In some of the early games I played they had low table limits but used a continuous shuffler so I wasn't able to count. Where I was able to card count on the higher table limits, sometimes I lost the count or made some incorrect plays. So I wanted to measure my overall performance relative to this baseline.

The high house edges come from the California card rooms that charge you $1 per bet made. I know these are stupid places to play but they are extremely convenient and I wanted to get some real expereince practicing.

The bottom line though is that I would have expected to only be out of pocket $1,144 without card counting. But I am actually down $3,569. I figure my bankroll is $5,000 for this so I am approaching it fast. Then I'm out.

How would the casinos be able to identify me? I really don't see a risk here. I have made no attempt to even conceal the fact that I am card counting and only once had a dealer re-shuffle on me.

I guess I better hit the books!

Quote: paisiello

How would the casinos be able to identify me? I really don't see a risk here. I have made no attempt to even conceal the fact that I am card counting and only once had a dealer re-shuffle on me.

Don't worry about it - as long as you are losing, it's fine with them for some reason. The "cheating" part comes up only if you win.

Paisiello, from what you've posted regarding max bets and casino exposure, it's clear that you haven't really done your research. Although it would have been preferable to get this part out of the way before losing real money, it's not too late to hit the books.

Two quick notes:

1. Big bets are not irrelevant. Big bets are THE reason you're counting cards in the first place. Playing through low, neutral, and negative counts is essentially just a way to wait until you can bet money on the big counts. This is the principle of wonging — avoiding neutral and negative counts and only playing positive ones.

2. If I worked for any of the casinos you listed, and I had spare time on my hands, it wouldn't take much effort at all to ID you. Fortunately, the surveillance crew at most places has much better things to do than nail a learning card counter, but it's a terrible habit to get into. If you don't understand why, read a few books on blackjack.

Good luck.

I would replace those casino names with asterisks. Never a good idea to announce when and where you've been counting.

I would highly recommend staying away from the card rooms like the Normandie. They do pay 3:2 on BJ, but the last time I was there you had to pay $1 collection for every $100 bet. Wagering $101 to win $99 (or, I shutter to think, $26 to win $24) is far from an advantage play. There are way too many Injun casinos around with good games for you to be playing that garbage.

P.
I have read through all 3 pages and taken note of the advice given. I myself have been playing Blackjack for more than 10 years on and off and whilst I don't consider myself an expert I do have good table experience all over the world. For the last 3 years I have been playing the KOBJ system, profitably. If I was to offer any advice it would be as follows:

Try a simpler count and betting strategy. Read Knock out BlackJack by Vancoura & Fukes (Use the Preferd Strategy)It has no TC conversions or side counts. These can be daunting to a beginner, whilst deciding on your bet and your play all at the table, under the eye of the pit critter, the dealer and the eye in the sky. (You have to crawl befor you can walk)
Buy CV BlackJack software. It does help.
SAVE. At least double yor bank roll.
Practise at home. Use a BS table, Cards and flash cards. Drill, Drill, Drill. I have flash cards with dealers hand and my hand on the front and what I should do for BS and BS variation on the back. Look at the front of the card decide what you should do then turn it over and see if you are correct.
Go to a casino and stand and watch. Pick a player (box) and Practise your counting and decision making for that box, without playing. My first 5 trips to a casino were 3hrs each with breaks and I never bet a penny just drank free and and practised.
Don't play at any casino that charges you, has bad rules or uses CSM's. Be PATIENT
Once you are happy, Vegas doesn't seem that far from you take a trip, (Mid week would be better befor they put the minimums up for the week end) forget single/dbl deck games and sit at a full 6 deck shoe game. Preferably at the end boxes so you can see all that comes befor you. Whilst other people make their bets you have time to count, think about your strategy plays and make your decisions. Try the NY NY, Mirage or Venetian. They seem decent friendly games, with good deck pen.
Use a spread of 1-10 units and don't be afraid to bet when the time is right. PATIENCE is the key
First off keep sessions short. I usually play for 1-2 hours max then take a walk. During your walk you can assess how you did, or think you did. have a beer, RELAX, then find another casino or another table.
KEEP A DIARY. In it I have my starting bank roll, my starting session roll, the table ie 6 deck and my spread bet, min - max. ($10-$100) When I finish fo the day I write it up. Prof/Los and how I feel I played. Others aswell (although mathematicaly other peoples play doesn'tsfect you or your decision) and the dealer, the atmosphere,pit critters etc.
Don't be afraid to get up and walk away from a table IF you feel uncumfortable you are loosing a lot or you are winning a lot in a short period. Remember it doesn't mater how long it takes you to make a good profit as long as you make a profit. So if your betting a min $10 and your up a few hundred in a shoe, you have adecision to make? There is no shame in walking away and enjoying it. DON'T Give it back. Have a stop win stop loss. This can always be assesed and adjusted if you are winnning well.
Hope this is helpfull,
A5teve

Quote: a5teve

P.
I have read through all 3 pages and taken note of the advice given. I myself have been playing Blackjack for more than 10 years on and off and whilst I don't consider myself an expert I do have good table experience all over the world. For the last 3 years I have been playing the KOBJ system, profitably. If I was to offer any advice it would be as follows:

Try a simpler count and betting strategy. Read Knock out BlackJack by Vancoura & Fukes (Use the Preferd Strategy)It has no TC conversions or side counts. These can be daunting to a beginner, whilst deciding on your bet and your play all at the table, under the eye of the pit critter, the dealer and the eye in the sky. (You have to crawl befor you can walk)
Buy CV BlackJack software. It does help.
SAVE. At least double yor bank roll.
Practise at home. Use a BS table, Cards and flash cards. Drill, Drill, Drill. I have flash cards with dealers hand and my hand on the front and what I should do for BS and BS variation on the back. Look at the front of the card decide what you should do then turn it over and see if you are correct.
Go to a casino and stand and watch. Pick a player (box) and Practise your counting and decision making for that box, without playing. My first 5 trips to a casino were 3hrs each with breaks and I never bet a penny just drank free and and practised.
Don't play at any casino that charges you, has bad rules or uses CSM's. Be PATIENT
Once you are happy, Vegas doesn't seem that far from you take a trip, (Mid week would be better befor they put the minimums up for the week end) forget single/dbl deck games and sit at a full 6 deck shoe game. Preferably at the end boxes so you can see all that comes befor you. Whilst other people make their bets you have time to count, think about your strategy plays and make your decisions. Try the NY NY, Mirage or Venetian. They seem decent friendly games, with good deck pen.
Use a spread of 1-10 units and don't be afraid to bet when the time is right. PATIENCE is the key
First off keep sessions short. I usually play for 1-2 hours max then take a walk. During your walk you can assess how you did, or think you did. have a beer, RELAX, then find another casino or another table.
KEEP A DIARY. In it I have my starting bank roll, my starting session roll, the table ie 6 deck and my spread bet, min - max. ($10-$100) When I finish fo the day I write it up. Prof/Los and how I feel I played. Others aswell (although mathematicaly other peoples play doesn'tsfect you or your decision) and the dealer, the atmosphere,pit critters etc.
Don't be afraid to get up and walk away from a table IF you feel uncumfortable you are loosing a lot or you are winning a lot in a short period. Remember it doesn't mater how long it takes you to make a good profit as long as you make a profit. So if your betting a min $10 and your up a few hundred in a shoe, you have adecision to make? There is no shame in walking away and enjoying it. DON'T Give it back. Have a stop win stop loss. This can always be assesed and adjusted if you are winnning well.
Hope this is helpfull,
A5teve

This is mostly good advice but I would stay away from stop wins and stop losses. As an AP, once you are competent your goal should be to play as much as possible to get your sample size up and get into the long run more quickly. Stop wins and stop losses are a deterrent to that. If you have found a good game (rules/pen/heat/etc.), you should play it as long as feasible, regardless of your short-term results.

If you are a beginner, sure take some breaks to keep your mind fresh. But these should be related to your current level of mental exhaustion, and not to how much you have won or lost.

I agree and I did say that the stop win can be assesed and adjusted if you are winning well. He did say he was a beginner not an AP and he was having difficulties. I do agree with you about staying at a winning table as long as possible A&E. I believe it is also about keeping your confidence level high as a beginner. That is the reason why I mentioned the stop loss for the beginner.
Cheers
Steve

Bravo! buzz i to am succesful. i started playing off of john patricks basic stratagy card from the first day i found vegas fever many years ago sitting on a discount computer software rack at a store. i also attribute that success to many other things i respect this site and the people in it but time and time again i think sometimes those people with extrodinary math skills lack the ability to add in factors other than the cold hard math, for instance you mention not always splitting aces and eights .here are examples why this is not always a smart play . if you get dealt two eights hard sixteen against a dealer up card of ten you choose to split the fact that you split those eights only makes sense because percentage wise it is slightly better than hitting sixteen.it does not give you a advantage over the dealers hand.it just makes your crapy hand slightly less crapy ,further more the fact is you must put more money on the table in a non faverable situation when this money you have used to split your two eights into two eighteens that are going to lose to 21,20, and 19 could be reserved for a much better situation such as doubling your 11 against any weak dealer up cards. the short of it is this the math does not take into consideration that the player has a limited bankroll and would be much better served saving this money for a much more favorable situation.remember this anybody starting out basic stratagy is just a starting point there are other factors to add in to your decisions when playing 21. thorpe said it himself its just a starting point . without basic stratagy i would not be succesful, nor would i be succesful with just basic stratagy. im going to go im tired of typing, later if any body is interested ill tell you how to whoop the comp system. sincerely your friend and mine the rainman

Quote: rainman

Bravo! buzz i to am succesful.

Dude, Rainman is a great handle. But learn
the basics of spelling and punctuation, unless
you want to be perceived as semi-illiterate.

spelling and punctuation are not my game nor was school for that matter dont be a hall monitor your friend and mine the rainman

Quote: rainman

i started playing off of john patricks basic stratagy card ...

Nothing to see here folks...move along...

deleted

Counting doesnt guarentee you'll win plain and simple cant argue that. It only improves your chances of winning. If you get a positive count it is still possible you will lose because dont forget the dealer gets cards to so you having saying a running count of +8 with 2 decks true count 2% to go still could leave you getting stiff 16's and the dealer 20's. Card counting once again only improves your odds it does not guarentee them. Luck is still a factor in any game you play you can count all day long get a positive count. But at the end of the day were you lucky enough to reap the reward of that positive count or were you unlucky and got stuck with those 14, 15, and 16 while the dealer flipped over BJ after BJ. Two many people count for the reason of thinking its a sure thing and when they get screwed with 16's while the dealer gets there 20 and 21 they wonder why am i losing im suppose to win.

Im assuming the poster knew that it improves your odds doesnt guarentee them. But i just wanted to let it be known sometimes your lucky and the cards come your way and sometimes your not.

hmmm very nice spelling and punctuation woodman! I cant find a single error. Then again im not sure i know what to look for lol. Please excuse the off topic rambling im pretty much just practicing typing,punctuation and spelling on account bob made me feel bad about myself. Forcast calls for rain sincerely the rainman

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I've said it before, how much are these guys getting paid to promote these hucksters?

That's the problem with satire. To many people think I am serious LOL

Quick notes:
You mentioned on your records that you have played a lot at Hustler and Normandie, with one time at commerce. Definitely scratch those out. Cali card rooms charge the $1 collection, and with your average bet of around $25 at those places you are essentially giving up a 4% house edge before the 1.18% game house edge is factored in. Unless you can wong at a +4 count or higher at the double deck games there and bet $100 min in 100 increments its essentially a losing game. Indian casinos in socal have really poor penetration and thus aren't profitable. Same with cali card rooms. Best bet is to make more trips to vegas, and extend playing sessions to a minimum of 1 hour with perfect basic strategy and perhaps an easier count. This losing streak is attributed to the cali casinos mainly, but maybe reevaluate strategy.