blackjack dealer etiquette (allowing players to hit "stay" hands)
Many times during the stay (as you might imagine at a $10 table), she or someone else would tap the table to hit their 14 vs. dealer 6 or their 16 vs. dealer 5. The dealer wouldn't even dealer the card, rather saying "are you sure?" while I implored the person that the dealer had a bust card. A few times the dealer was nice enough to even explain that she was most likely to bust when showing a 5 or 6, etc. Is this normal, or did we just get nice dealers who understand that people at $10 tables may be new to the game?
I think specifically about 2 years ago at MGM, we were at a $15 dollar table and I was playing a $100 hand; my buddy had $150 out there after a $50 got split and doubled. Of course, his female companion was on 3rd base and had 12 vs. dealer 6. She said hit as I screamed out "no no no no!" The dealer did not hesitate and just slapped a card out there without pausing from my screaming or even asking "are you sure?" Of course she busts with a face card, dealer draws the miracle 5 and destroys the table.
Is it wishful thinking to believe that BJ should maybe have a soul and clarify these types of hands before robotically tossing out a card?
The dealer will break more often with certain up cards but there are no bust cards.
Granted sometimes when people don't follow basic strategy it hurts others (you always hear these stories) and sometimes it benefits the others at the table (you never hear these stories)!
Quote:There are no bust cards
Quoted for truth.Quote: jsantee97What if the two cards were reversed and the lady took the 5 and the dealer busted, then he woulda been grateful!
Granted sometimes when people don't follow basic strategy it hurts others (you always hear these stories) and sometimes it benefits the others at the table (you never hear these stories)!
I remember the last time I played the woman at 3rd base was making all sorts of crazy plays and saving the table at every opportunity. We were quite grateful.
A hit on 12 against a 6 isn't really that bad, especially if the count is low.
Quote: jsantee97What if the two cards were reversed and the lady took the 5 and the dealer busted, then he woulda been grateful!
Granted sometimes when people don't follow basic strategy it hurts others (you always hear these stories) and sometimes it benefits the others at the table (you never hear these stories)!
It's just money (and $100 isn't a lot at all), but with everyone else at the table screaming at her "no, don't hit," you would think perhaps the dealer would be engaged in life enough to at least hesitate and allow her to wave off her mistake.
And yeah, obviously I would have been happy if it worked out in my favor. That actually happened to me last trip, albeit it on a $40 hand. 3rd base stood with 14 vs. dealer 10 and dealer wound up with 18 to my 19 instead of having a 20 (or something weird like that). Either way, I won when I wouldn't have except for his non-sequitur play. I guess it's easier to remember the big hands that sting (losing a 100 bet on a 15 dollar table) versus the small wins from bad play of others.
The 'T' stands for 'tard. No help on what the F stands for.
When an FT does something that helps you, it is called an "FTA" or FT Assist.
To avoid FT's, he and a compatriot will often take over a six-spot table, betting $25 on three hands. He says he has done well using this method.
Quote: teddysMy friend absolutely cannot stand other peoples bad play. He calls them "FT's."
The 'T' stands for 'tard. No help on what the F stands for.
When an FT does something that helps you, it is called an "FTA" or FT Assist.
To avoid FT's, he and a compatriot will often take over a six-spot table, betting $25 on three hands. He says he has done well using this method.
Wow, that's a thought. I'd probably have to get a 3rd partner to help out, because I don't think our bankrolls are ready for $75/hand. Question about that: if someone approaches the table and wishes to play, you technically have priority over all spots that you continue to bet, right?
FTA is absolutely perfect. I hope you don't mind if I bring that into my table vernacular
Thanks! I'll pass it on to my friend that his lingo is catching on.Quote: seviayWow, that's a thought. I'd probably have to get a 3rd partner to help out, because I don't think our bankrolls are ready for $75/hand. Question about that: if someone approaches the table and wishes to play, you technically have priority over all spots that you continue to bet, right?
FTA is absolutely perfect. I hope you don't mind if I bring that into my table vernacular
Yes, you have priority over any incoming players. At the particular house he plays at, to play 3 spots you have to play 5x the minimum, so $25 on a $5 table. YMMV.
Even asking "Are you sure?" is unsolicited advice.
On the other hand, if everyone is shouting, and particularly if the player is with someone who is shouting, then the dealer should pause and give the player a chance to reconsider.
House rules prevail. Some casinos will insist that a player relinquish a spot.Quote: seviayif someone approaches the table and wishes to play, you technically have priority over all spots that you continue to bet, right?
Quote: DJTeddyBearDealers should never give unsolicited advice. After all, when does it end? Should a dealer double check when a player stands on a soft 18?
Even asking "Are you sure?" is unsolicited advice.
On the other hand, if everyone is shouting, and particularly if the player is with someone who is shouting, then the dealer should pause and give the player a chance to reconsider.
Without delving into the math of it, if I dealt, I might pause to question huge "disadvantage" plays, especially if the player seems a little wet behind the ears. After all, dealers make more tips when people are winning than when they're losing, so you would hope that if you helped someone make a "better" decision, they might reward you with a tip. I don't think that's the same as hustling for tips, but it seems like a wise move by the dealer, as long as the pit bosses did not chastise them for such action.
I appreciate your slippery slope, "where does it end" argument, but hitting your own crappy hand (12 or 13 for example) against a dealer 6 isn't quite the same as standing on soft 18 vs. dealer 6. Oh well, I'm just trying to live the fantasy that people won't play like total morons...just partial ones =)
So it's really up to management. Is their main concern customer service, or hands per hour?
The only unsolicited opinions I give are when some "expert" tries to berate a new player for playing wrong (according to them).
Anyone else ever had this conversation?
Newbie: hits 14 against a 6.
Expert: "That's why we can never win! There's always some idiot that doesn't know how to play."
Me: "You know, how another person plays has no real affect on whether you win or lose."
Expert: "Of course it does. If everyone played right we'd win."
Me: "It's going to help as much as it hurts, we just remember the bad ones more."
Expert: "Bullsh$%#%^t, I've been playing this game for twenty five years and I know"
Me: "I don't think you know as much as you think you know. I'm going to stick with thousands of years of mathematics"
Expert: "F$*@#!ng idiot", leaves table.
Me: explains to newbie why the expert was mad and why the expert was wrong. I also tell them if they aren't sure how to play a hand they can always ask the table for advice.
Mark
Quote: marksolbergThe second dealer did the right thing. A dealer should never play a player's hand. As we all know, how another player plays has no affect on your win/loss over time. I think a dealer that says "are you sure?" is basically calling the player a dumbass. I am not advocating not helping players, just don't give unsolicited advice. If a player asks a dealer or another player then they should be given the proper advice. But in general, you pay for the square you can split face cards if you want.
The only unsolicited opinions I give are when some "expert" tries to berate a new player for playing wrong (according to them).
Anyone else ever had this conversation?
Newbie: hits 14 against a 6.
Expert: "That's why we can never win! There's always some idiot that doesn't know how to play."
Me: "You know, how another person plays has no real affect on whether you win or lose."
Expert: "Of course it does. If everyone played right we'd win."
Me: "It's going to help as much as it hurts, we just remember the bad ones more."
Expert: "Bullsh$%#%^t, I've been playing this game for twenty five years and I know"
Me: "I don't think you know as much as you think you know. I'm going to stick with thousands of years of mathematics"
Expert: "F$*@#!ng idiot", leaves table.
Me: explains to newbie why the expert was mad and why the expert was wrong. I also tell them if they aren't sure how to play a hand they can always ask the table for advice.
Mark
I agree with you, Mark. Of course, it's easy to fall into the trap of being mad over 1 hand, but not considering that you won the next 5 hands b/c the "newbie" threw the deck off by that 1 extra card. I try to remain patient with new people or those who are unsure, and I try to explain that "the math says the correct play is this, but it is your hand, and you should play it how you wish."
In the example from the OP, the guy at Monte Carlo was a complete idiot. He kept trying to double when he had 12 or 13 for some reason. We all kept laughing at him and telling him why it was a bad idea...the dealer finally gave up and let him double whatever he wanted and then pointed out that he just gave away 2 bets instead of 1. The dealers were all annoyed with him b/c he kept wanting to color up his chips after wins, only to have to break his chips 2 hands later. I was mostly just laughing at him because he didn't screw me over or bring bad karma to the table.
I always tell people that I generally prefer to play the mathematically correct play, because even if I lose, I can take solace in that it was mathematically correct. I used to be one of those who got so worked up when someone made a bad play, but I generally have the laissez faire approach now. HOWEVER, when someone to my right stands on something like 12 against a dealer 10 (no way anyone justifies that play to me!) and I get what should have been their 10 card, it annoys me...especially when the next card would have given me 21. Some ladies kept doing this to me on the 2nd night of my last trip, but luckily they lost quickly enough to leave the table after about 20 minutes.
I really think the dealer was trying to be helpful and not an asshole, but it goes to show you that some dealers do not know basic strategy. This was at the Mandallay Bay and the dealer was experienced and not a break-in.
Quote: gamblerThe last time I was in Las Vegas, I was watching a friend of mine play at a blackjack table. A new player was asking for the dealer's advice every couple of hands, and the dealer was friendly and cheerfully giving it. However, a lot of the advice given was not basic strategy!!! The player would ask the dealer, "What would you do? and I guess the dealer gave their own opinion, even though it was contrary to the math.
I really think the dealer was trying to be helpful and not an asshole, but it goes to show you that some dealers do not know basic strategy. This was at the Mandallay Bay and the dealer was experienced and not a break-in.
I stayed at MB in May and got in numerous disagreements with dealers there about basic strategy. One very experienced dealer told me "never split any F hands" (four, five, face) when I suggested another player might want to split his 4s vs dealer 6. Of course he split and won, so I felt good about it. I believe another one was about doubling soft 18 vs a 5 or 6. Sure, some of these may be close calls, but why not try to win a "free" double? Isn't that why we play?
Quote: seviayMany times during the stay (as you might imagine at a $10 table), she or someone else would tap the table to hit their 14 vs. dealer 6 or their 16 vs. dealer 5. The dealer wouldn't even dealer the card, rather saying "are you sure?" while I implored the person that the dealer had a bust card. A few times the dealer was nice enough to even explain that she was most likely to bust when showing a 5 or 6, etc. Is this normal, or did we just get nice dealers who understand that people at $10 tables may be new to the game?
Is it wishful thinking to believe that BJ should maybe have a soul and clarify these types of hands before robotically tossing out a card?
My experiece is a dealer will ask in obvious situation. In most cases the dealer and player both are on autopilot in many cases. I have done it myself. After that the player's reaction will determine the dealer response next time. If the player is rude, do not expect more help. If the player doesn't get the concept after several times do not expect more help. If the dealer asks in a borderline situation and the player says politely they know what they are doing, more help may be coming.
Some dealers, however, will just do as the player asks. Those dealers would starve if not for tip-pooling.
Quote: gamblerA new player was asking for the dealer's advice every couple of hands, and the dealer was friendly and cheerfully giving it. However, a lot of the advice given was not basic strategy!!! The player would ask the dealer, "What would you do? and I guess the dealer gave their own opinion, even though it was contrary to the math.
Most dealers that I know learned from watching people play, not by actually researching basic strategy. They might learn 80% of good strategy that way but you won't learn when to hit a soft 18 because that isn't how most people play.
At the Monte Carlo its normal or atleast its frequently encountered.Quote: seviayA few times the dealer was nice enough to even explain that she was most likely to bust when showing a 5 or 6, etc. Is this normal, or did we just get nice dealers who understand that people at $10 tables may be new to the game?
>Is it wishful thinking to believe that BJ should maybe have a soul and clarify these types of hands before roboticly tossing out a card?
It might be wishful thinking if its near the end of a long shift or the table is crowded. Most casinos just want the cards dealt and dealers to be courteous and fast.
I've had people ask for another card when their hand totaled 21. After twice asking for another card and then having the dealer tell him he had 21, my friend at least had the courtesy to give the guy a dollar. (This was decades ago).
1. A player plays his hand as he sees fit, and shouldn't get flak for it from anyone, as there is no bust cards per se. Sometimes bad plays work out well, other times they don't, but it's gambling that's going on.
2. The dealer does not play anyone's hand.
3. Dealers may discuss the game when asked, espcially if a known new player is playing, and should give solid Basic Strategy advice IF ASKED by a newbie. Aside from that, "coaching" players is out of place. True, some dealers don't know basic strategy or don't care, and should simply say, "Sir/Ma'am, it's your call. Do what you think is best." A player may ask other players for advice.
Quote: PaigowdanA couple of rules dealers follow:
1. A player plays his hand as he sees fit, and shouldn't get flak for it from anyone, as there is no bust cards per se. Sometimes bad plays work out well, other times they don't, but it's gambling that's going on.
2. The dealer does not play anyone's hand.
3. Dealers may discuss the game when asked, espcially if a known new player is playing, and should give solid Basic Strategy advice IF ASKED by a newbie. Aside from that, "coaching" players is out of place. True, some dealers don't know basic strategy or don't care, and should simply say, "Sir/Ma'am, it's your call. Do what you think is best." A player may ask other players for advice.
Isn't this a bit frigid and robotic? I don't view it as coaching so much as it is good customer service. Some people have a couple drinks and make the incorrect motion or just glance at their cards really quickly and signal for a hit before even looking at the dealer card. Yes, I've seen it, as I'm sure you have. I think it's appropriate for a dealer in the above scenarios to at least clarify the motion with "hit?" and if the player says yes, go ahead and deal the card. This allows the player to be perfectly clear with his/her intentions and anyone at the table to possibly chime in as well, without the player being "coached" or coaxed by the dealer.
Of course, I don't think a BJ should ever get contentious, either among players or between players and dealers...I like it to be a fun, friendly environment, especially since I don't play for high stakes (50/hand at most). In fact, regardless of stakes, I don't think I'd really enjoy playing solo or with a dull table. I like being able to high five or give a pound to other players when we win.
If the dealer says something like, "The count is +11! bet more!" then there's a problem with the dealer saying that at any casino.
If the dealer says "Basic strategy says you should always hit soft 17, because if the dealer makes his hand, you'll never win with that 17," and the player responds, "that makes sense," and hits and wins, then no harm and no foul was committed at any casino, because is both basic strategy and common sense. Also, if a player makes an obviously bad play that he didn't mean to, I will of course verify the hit-or-stand instruction, like hitting a 16 against a 6 after three Jager shots.
I chat with players all the time about their hands and probabilities, (hitting 12's against a dealer's 2 or 3, hitting 16 versus a 10, hitting soft 18 against a dealer's 9, 10, or Ace, etc.) but so as long as I am not coaching and sticking to real Basic Strategy, it's all right.
Tonight on dice I was discussing quotes from the movie "Ferris Beuller's day off" with a player, and film in general, and had a great time. It's a rare treat to get very friendly and social players on a crap game.
The whole point of table games is that it can and should be a fun and social experience. It's just that coaching a player may be collusion, a major no-no.
Its a fine line a dealer has to walk between keeping the game moving, keeping the experienced players who know what they are doing from getting impatient and keeping the neophytes happy.
Now all you have to do is make the person with the questions be an attractive young female who is quite generously displaying her attractiveness, wearing a subtle but clearly expensive French perfume, displaying a smile that could eat a banana sideways, etc. and you are going to have some radically altered viewpoints on this issue right away.
I know one Floor Man whose keyring bears one of those tiny little gift shop strategy cards and I swear he has to consult it each and every time there is any sort of argument. So if the Floor is ignorant you can be sure that some dealers are going to be ignorant as well. Sometimes a dealer will on his own simply apply Basic Strategy to a player: giving her no time to indicate a desire for another card and ignoring any request she does make or else simply giving her another card promptly. If she is smart the player will keep her yap shut and count the chips that mount up. Its the dealer's call. The other players can grumble a bit but its the dealer's call.
I remember mishearing the dealer when I was fumbling around with my chips/drink and I had a 19 but for some reason I thought he said 9 and I just motioned to hit and he said "its a 19" and I apologised and motioned to stand. So generally common sense prevails in these situations.
Quote: teddysThanks! I'll pass it on to my friend that his lingo is catching on.
I'll use that too, even though sometimes I'm the FT.
