Noob questions - bankroll, betting increments

Hello everyone. I've never played blackjack before, but have played a little craps. I never played blackjack because I didn't know basic strategy and did not want to lose a lot of money without having the odds to its best amount. I am planning a trip to vegas and found the wizards sites. Now, I have basic strategy down to a tee and I am going to play some. (thanks wizard!) I am planning to play a variant of Oscar's grind. I know betting systems are not fool proof and tend to make you a fool in the long run, but I like the variance the system provides.

Questions: (I hope there is no such thing as a stupid question, but I'm going to try my best)

1) How do you keep track of bankroll? When you have 500 in chips on the table, how do you organize them? Do you keep 300 dollars in your pocket and work with 200? If so, if you want to double down but do not have enough chips, can you buy more mid play? I doubt the casinos would allow it due to card counting, but would they let you take a calculator to the table? How about a piece of paper and a pencil?

2) If you are at a 15$ minimum table can you bet up increments of 5$ or does the betting increment need to be 15$? Same question for a craps table, at a 10$ craps table can I take 15$ pass line odds, say on the 10? Or does it have to be 20$?? I understand that this wouldn't work on the 5/9 due to a 2/3 payout. How does the casino pay out 50 cents? Is there a 50 cent coin or chip? (Say at a 3:2 blackjack table with a 15 $ bid)

3) If I have a 500$ bankroll, betting 15$ hands how long could I expect to play jackjack. Is it 15 $ x 60 hands per hour = 900 $ x 0.005 = lose 4.50$ per hour? (on average)

1) I never put cheques in my pocket. Normally, I would buy in for 200$ and receieve 100 in red, 100 in green. I'd keep the green aside. And the red I'll have stacked. As soon as I saw that I had ~375$ I would make two stacks of 100$ red.

2a) You may bet any amount from table minimum to the table maximum. If the casino has 2.50$ cheques (most do) ... you may in theory wager 15.50$; more common though, you may place bets of 17$, 23$, etc.

2b) Again, most casinos have a cheque worth 2.50$ so If you bet 15$.. it will pay four red (5$) and one pink (2.50$) for a total of 22.50$
If you bet 17.50$ and got a blackjack.. it would pay you 26$, though.

Some casinos have 50 cent pieces

You are wise to ask questions before hitting the tables. Never be afraid to ask.

Quote: jrock

if you want to double down but do not have enough chips, can you buy more mid play? I doubt the casinos would allow it due to card counting, but would they let you take a calculator to the table? How about a piece of paper and a pencil?

You can buy more chips mid play. Of course you cannot adjust the size of your original contract bet, but you can always put more cash down for splits or doubles.

You cannot take a calculator to the table. Even paper and a pencil are prohibited at most bj tables. You can take a basic strategy card to refer to, but anything that allows you to keep track, or calculate is frowned upon.

Good luck to you, and have fun!

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For craps, you have to make bets that can be paid properly - or risk being shortchanged.

For example, if you put $15 odds behind 5 or 9, they will pay you $22: $14 at 3:2 for $21, and $1 at even money.

You'll often hear the craps dealers chant "Odds are even on odds". That's their way to remind you to make it an even bet. You do NOT need to bump it up to $20. $16 is fine. Note that if you have a lot of small chips, they may pay that $16 by taking the white and dropping a green.

You very rarely see anything smaller than $1 chips at a craps table. And rarely see the pink $2.50 chips. If you DO see it, ASK! I saw several stacks of pinks at a craps table and asked if that meant I can bet in half units, they said no. I wanted to ask why the pinks were there at all...

FYI: "Units" are $6 for place bets on the 6/8, and $5 for 5/9, etc.

1. I agree with Joe, I'd keep $300 in cash if I could. If it's a situation where that isn't an option (like if you were down to your last $150 in chips and rallied back to $500), then I'd personally color up a couple blacks, pocket them, and treat them like cash/emergency funds.

2a. I've never seen $2.50 chips anywhere but here (MN). And here, I've only seen them at Mystic Lake/Little Six.

2b. If the casino has pinks but no $.25 equivalent chips, they likely round up payments on blackjacks and surrenders (that's what Mystic does). If that is the case, it's in your best interest to always bet one $2.50 pink chip in addition to your normal wager.

3. Yes, that's the expected loss on average. But, in reality, you'll probably have a big downswing that will result in negative money before you reach the 111 hour mark (111*4.50=$499.50). $500 is 33 bets at $15/hand. The odds of being down by more than 33 bets at some point in 6000 hands of play (100 hours@60 hands per hour) is higher than you'd think.

1) I also keep all my chips for a gambling session on the table. I'm pretty organized, I keep 'em in stacks of $100 each, for instance. If you buy in for $500 at a $10 table, you'll probably receive $100-200 in reds ($5 chips) and the rest in greens ($25 chips). Play with the reds unless/until they run out, then cash in a couple hundred in greens for more reds. If you pause every once in a while to check your stacks (like during the shuffle) you should be able to keep track of your bankroll pretty easily. If you're out of chips and want to double down, you absolutely can buy more chips with cash. This seems to happen to me every time I run low and go "all in". I would think any use of paper/pencil at a BJ table would be frowned upon.

2) Generally speaking, you can place any wager above the minimum. $20 and $25 bets at a $15 table are certainly allowed. I think most casinos that have the $2.50 chip to pay off 3/2 blackjacks do not allow a single $2.50 chip in a wager. i.e., you cannot wager $17.50 or $22.50. Wait 'til you've got two of 'em, then bet 'em together as a $5 increment.

3) Yes, in your example the average session would lose $4.50 per hour. I'd actually use 80 hand/hour for an average $6 per hour loss. However, average almost never happens due to the variance. To plan for a typical session, I'd plan on a -1 sigma condition. At 80 hands/hour and $15 per hand, the standard deviation is about $135/ root hour. With a $500 bankroll, you could EXPECT to play for about 12 hours. (Based on my recent luck, I'd only expect to play for about 45 minutes!)

Of course, if you're playing a grind, your average bet will be larger, your variance will be larger, and your expected duration of play will be shorter. I think a grind is an acceptable way to massage the win/loss distribution to increase your chances of a smallish win over the short term. Playing it for 1000 hands or so really pushes your luck with regard to risk of ruin.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I would suggest before you sit down to watch a bunch of tables and get acclaimated with what goes on at one. You will learn alot just by watching how the dealer handles things. Just dont follow playing advice from other playesr or the dealer for that matter. Just follow basic strategy for the particular game you are playing.

Plan on it, I just want to get my betting strategy down before going. I plan on playing 15 dollar hands and upping my bet by 5 $ on every win when down until I am ahead again (sort of a Oscar's grind variant). The only thing though is how do I know when I am ahead again? Trying to figure out how to keep track of bankroll. If I should keep counting chips or keep a running total in my head?

I don't do anything without researching it thoroughly and did the same before playing craps the first time. Thanks for your help so far.

Quote: jrock

1) How do you keep track of bankroll? When you have 500 in chips on the table, how do you organize them? Do you keep 300 dollars in your pocket and work with 200? If so, if you want to double down but do not have enough chips, can you buy more mid play? I doubt the casinos would allow it due to card counting, but would they let you take a calculator to the table? How about a piece of paper and a pencil?

2) If you are at a 15$ minimum table can you bet up increments of 5$ or does the betting increment need to be 15$? Same question for a craps table, at a 10$ craps table can I take 15$ pass line odds, say on the 10? Or does it have to be 20$?? I understand that this wouldn't work on the 5/9 due to a 2/3 payout. How does the casino pay out 50 cents? Is there a 50 cent coin or chip? (Say at a 3:2 blackjack table with a 15 $ bid)

3) If I have a 500$ bankroll, betting 15$ hands how long could I expect to play jackjack. Is it 15 $ x 60 hands per hour = 900 $ x 0.005 = lose 4.50$ per hour? (on average)

1) There are as many methods of doing this as there are players, but I've found that 20 chips makes a manageable stack. So if I have, say, $150 on the table, I make one stack of reds ($100) and then make my bets from the remainder as needed. At the crap table, I separate the stacks (which are on their sides) with $1 chips.

If you want to double down or split, you can take money out of your pocket. I don't even bother to do that--I just ask the dealer to "mark $X". She gets the florrman's approval, and they lend me enough money to play out the hand, which of course, I have to pay back immediately at the hand's conclusion, which could mean I have to go into my pocket after all.

You can take a basic strategy card to the table, but anything that you can use to calculate or make notes would be a no-no.

2) If the table minimum is, say, $15, you can bet $15, $17, $109, or anything else you want, up to the table maximum. You may not get paid properly on the last $5 of your bet if you get a blackjack (they wouldn't give you $7.50, just $7). Generally, a table with $5 minimums or lower will have some kind of 50-cent chip, or actual half-dollars. At craps, you can take odds for less than the maximum, and your odds bet doesn't have to be an exact multiple of your line bet--for instance, if you have a $10 line bet, and the point is 4, you can take $14 odds if you want.

3) Don't use the expected value to calculate how long you're going to last--that isn't a very useful measuring stick. I would say that 30 bets would be enough to play a couple of hours of blackjack, MOST of the time, but I've been nuked for more than that in less than an hour on occasion. At the crap table, that $500 could vanish like a snowball on a hot stove. $10 line bet+double odds could wipe you out in fifteen minutes if the table goes cold.

Your craps bets should be whatever you are comfortable betting. The only requirements are that you must meet the table minimum. Obviously, its best to make bets that are in amounts which the casino can easily pay. So don't bet amounts that would result in rounding off, because the casino usually rounds off against the player. Also don't bet weird amounts that although technically legal would only confuse the dealers and induce them to get exasperated and begin making mistakes.

Bankroll and expected time at table charts are available but the goal is to have fun so don't worry too much. Attend the free lectures even if you think you already know the material. Its a good review and they usually start you out slowly and carefully afterward.

So say you have your neat stacks of chips and are working with 15 $ bets and then my bet progresses to 20, then 25. Is it frowned upon to bet 5 reds as opposed to one green? I would rather bet the reds so I can keep track of the bankroll and not pull a green off until I have too? How about 30, 35 40 etc?

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Quote: jrock

So say you have your neat stacks of chips and are working with 15 $ bets and then my bet progresses to 20, then 25. Is it frowned upon to bet 5 reds as opposed to one green? I would rather bet the reds so I can keep track of the bankroll and not pull a green off until I have too? How about 30, 35 40 etc?

They don't care. If you win, the dealer might replace your bet with green chips--for example, he might pay a $25 odds bet on the 4 with three greens, and take the reds away. A good dealer will glance at your rack/stacks to see how many of the lower-denomination chips you have before deciding.

Quote: PapaChubby

2) Generally speaking, you can place any wager above the minimum. $20 and $25 bets at a $15 table are certainly allowed. I think most casinos that have the $2.50 chip to pay off 3/2 blackjacks do not allow a single $2.50 chip in a wager. i.e., you cannot wager $17.50 or $22.50. Wait 'til you've got two of 'em, then bet 'em together as a $5 increment.

ALL of the casinos I've seen DO allow it. But most won't make change for you. You'd have to earn them from an odd BJ payout. SOME casinos use half dollars, but do not allow you to bet them at all - unless you get two of them.

I've never seen a casino that requred BJ bets to be in $5 multiples. I.E. They might not let you use that pink for a $17.50 bet, but they'll let you use whites for a $17 or $18 bet.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Only on the 6:5 game will you see a sign stating you have to bet in increments of $5.

...and if you do see that sign, take it as an indication that you are at the WRONG TABLE...

I won't be playing those games if I can help it.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I would suggest before you sit down to watch a bunch of tables and get acclaimated with what goes on at one. You will learn alot just by watching how the dealer handles things. Just dont follow playing advice from other playesr or the dealer for that matter. Just follow basic strategy for the particular game you are playing.

That's good advice. I remember when I played blackjack for the first or second time the dealer suggested I double down on A-A rather than splitting. I took her advice ... oy :(

Quote: DJTeddyBear

ALL of the casinos I've seen DO allow it. But most won't make change for you. You'd have to earn them from an odd BJ payout. SOME casinos use half dollars, but do not allow you to bet them at all - unless you get two of them.

I've never seen a casino that requred BJ bets to be in $5 multiples. I.E. They might not let you use that pink for a $17.50 bet, but they'll let you use whites for a $17 or $18 bet.

I guess I didn't mean to imply that all bets had to be in multiples of $5. But I thought I'd seen players try to bet the $2.50 chip (say as part of a $17.50 bet) and have it rejected. The table doesn't use quarters, so they couldn't properly pay off a blackjack. I guess another way of doing it would be to just pay 7/5 on the pink chip instead of 3/2.

I'm sure a $16 bet is acceptable at a $15 table.

Quote: mkl654321

....
If you want to double down or split, you can take money out of your pocket. I don't even bother to do that--I just ask the dealer to "mark $X". She gets the florrman's approval, and they lend me enough money to play out the hand, which of course, I have to pay back immediately at the hand's conclusion, which could mean I have to go into my pocket after all.

I have never seen this before, although I don't spend any time at BJ tables. Are you playing at a place where you are known? I can't imagine the floor taking a chance on letting you bet money, unless they know who you are, or they can see the cash. I guess if you are playing from marker money already, I suppose they would do this as well, as long as the amount was relatively small. Just curious on the mechanics of this.

If you want to bank in Pai Gow, and you don't have enough chips on the table, most places will let you put up cash, but not make you convert it to chips. But, the cash has to be on the table first. When the hand is done, if you won, or could pay off in chips, you can take your cash back. This is a bit different since if you didn't have the money to pay off the losses, it is other players that would be getting stuck, not just the casino.

You say you play craps. I'm just curious if you keep track of your bankroll there as I find it near impossible, or at least more effort than it is worth at times.

If you are able to play basic strategy then I assume your math skills at at least decent. I would just organize your chips on the table in a way that it is very easy for you to count it up. Put all stacks in easy to count increments. This normally would be 25/50/100. If you have $400 on the tablet, just keep $300 to one side and play with the $100. If that goes away, just take $100 out of the side pile. This way you just aren't counting all your chips at all times. You know there is $300 over in this pile so you don't need to count it if you never touch it.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I have never seen this before, although I don't spend any time at BJ tables. Are you playing at a place where you are known? I can't imagine the floor taking a chance on letting you bet money, unless they know who you are, or they can see the cash. I guess if you are playing from marker money already, I suppose they would do this as well, as long as the amount was relatively small. Just curious on the mechanics of this.

All I can tell you is that I've done this several times, and I doubt that they knew me any of those times.

Quote: mkl654321

If you want to double down or split, you can take money out of your pocket. I don't even bother to do that--I just ask the dealer to "mark $X". She gets the florrman's approval, and they lend me enough money to play out the hand, which of course, I have to pay back immediately at the hand's conclusion, which could mean I have to go into my pocket after all.

I've never seen this done, but I can see how it'd be a good way to go at times. I wonder though, can you get the floorperson's approval in advance? Otherwise, it seems like it'd take longer to get it approved than it would to just bring in the cash.

I have seen it happen once. And yes, it took so damn long, that I was almost ready to lend my own money to the guy to get the game moving. I can't begin to imagine why people do this.