Can someone explain the ID situation to me?
August 22nd, 2022 at 7:42:44 PM
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I'm new to card counting, and am gradually start to get a hang of it. However... I need to be able to protect my identity as much as possible (if I'm playing non-rated)
Here are some problematic scenarios that I need help with, I'd like some advice on what to do.
1: ID'd at the entrance (because I look young) for "legal reasons". The important thing here is, if it's indeed for "legal reasons", then it can't be used to identify you for the sake of identifying you as a card counter, right? I hope so.
2: Forced color ups to purple. I think at many casinos purple chips automatically get ID request at the cage. Sometimes, even the "which table did you play at" question. Can I refuse? If not, would they refuse to cash in my chips? Is "I forgot my ID" good enough?
Dealer sometimes insist that I color up to purple even though I know it'll get me "in trouble" at the cage. Their excuse is "so we can keep the black chip count stable blah blah". Can I refuse?
3: ID demand at the cage for over $1000 cash outs as per "house rules". As an AP, $1000 is not a big number. Which often leads to being demanded ID during cashout, after heat, or even after backoff. Does anyone know what the standard cage protocol is? The cage people seem to have zero interest in identifying card counters, and simply do exactly what they were ordered to do, day in, day out, like a robot.
For context: Right now I'm playing rated, even though many people say it's a bad idea to play rated. But if I'm going to get ID'd at the entrance or cage anyway, my identity is already forfeited. Might as well get some tier credits. That's my reasoning for playing rated.
Here are some problematic scenarios that I need help with, I'd like some advice on what to do.
1: ID'd at the entrance (because I look young) for "legal reasons". The important thing here is, if it's indeed for "legal reasons", then it can't be used to identify you for the sake of identifying you as a card counter, right? I hope so.
2: Forced color ups to purple. I think at many casinos purple chips automatically get ID request at the cage. Sometimes, even the "which table did you play at" question. Can I refuse? If not, would they refuse to cash in my chips? Is "I forgot my ID" good enough?
Dealer sometimes insist that I color up to purple even though I know it'll get me "in trouble" at the cage. Their excuse is "so we can keep the black chip count stable blah blah". Can I refuse?
3: ID demand at the cage for over $1000 cash outs as per "house rules". As an AP, $1000 is not a big number. Which often leads to being demanded ID during cashout, after heat, or even after backoff. Does anyone know what the standard cage protocol is? The cage people seem to have zero interest in identifying card counters, and simply do exactly what they were ordered to do, day in, day out, like a robot.
For context: Right now I'm playing rated, even though many people say it's a bad idea to play rated. But if I'm going to get ID'd at the entrance or cage anyway, my identity is already forfeited. Might as well get some tier credits. That's my reasoning for playing rated.
August 22nd, 2022 at 8:19:07 PM
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Casinos are usually on high alert for card counter behavior at the table. My advice is to not count cards at the table, but bring a Basic Strategy card and play like an advanced novice. Yeah, YouTube videos have shown that the cage may demand ID/Player's Card for $1,000+ cash-outs, it may vary by casino, the amount could be higher. I'm at a high roller casino and most everybody has the potential to cash-out over $1,000 at the cage, but I haven't figured out when they demand ID yet. It could be $2,500.
August 23rd, 2022 at 5:00:39 AM
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Getting IDed at the door isn't the end of the world but it does mean that you will likely be named in OSN (Oregon Surveillance Network) and on fliers if you are flagged as an AP by Surveillance.
I personally have never experienced forced color ups so I'm sorry I cannot give advice there. You can play as a refusal at the tables, this is not uncommon in the gaming industry. People who want to lay low for non-AP reasons or just don't care to be rated do it all the time. So if you are afraid of being ID'd and want to play as a pure counter then just play as a refusal. Just know that many properties, usually those that restrict access by age to 21+ can and will ask for ID to verify age if you look young. This isn't the worst thing in the world though but you might end up rated after the check by the pit boss depending on the property if you have a card in their system.
Getting ID'd at the Cage is honestly the safest place for it to happen unless it is a pushy supervisor that is making your life difficult. Even then they are usually only doing it for tax reporting and attempting to prevent money laundering. Cage protocols for the cutoff amount where they ask for ID can vary from casino to casino. Asking that information directly from the cage staff can lead to increased attention from management as it can seem like you are attempting to structure your cashouts to avoid reporting winnings and keep below the CTR threshold.
I personally have never experienced forced color ups so I'm sorry I cannot give advice there. You can play as a refusal at the tables, this is not uncommon in the gaming industry. People who want to lay low for non-AP reasons or just don't care to be rated do it all the time. So if you are afraid of being ID'd and want to play as a pure counter then just play as a refusal. Just know that many properties, usually those that restrict access by age to 21+ can and will ask for ID to verify age if you look young. This isn't the worst thing in the world though but you might end up rated after the check by the pit boss depending on the property if you have a card in their system.
Getting ID'd at the Cage is honestly the safest place for it to happen unless it is a pushy supervisor that is making your life difficult. Even then they are usually only doing it for tax reporting and attempting to prevent money laundering. Cage protocols for the cutoff amount where they ask for ID can vary from casino to casino. Asking that information directly from the cage staff can lead to increased attention from management as it can seem like you are attempting to structure your cashouts to avoid reporting winnings and keep below the CTR threshold.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
August 23rd, 2022 at 8:29:26 AM
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I've cashed in purples and yellows and never been carded for it once. Is that something that happens in smaller/regional casinos?
August 23rd, 2022 at 8:45:34 AM
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Quote: TigerWuI've cashed in purples and yellows and never been carded for it once. Is that something that happens in smaller/regional casinos?
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Probably. I've been carded cashing two black at a tiny place.
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 23rd, 2022 at 8:54:54 AM
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The only thing I can answer is about a ‘forced color up’. When done playing, I pick up my chips and leave the table. Not sure how I could be forced to color up.
August 23rd, 2022 at 11:26:25 AM
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Quote: SOOPOOThe only thing I can answer is about a ‘forced color up’. When done playing, I pick up my chips and leave the table. Not sure how I could be forced to color up.
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It happened to me when I had a winning roulette streak and I was raising until I was betting $2000 a spin.
The dealer and pit boss kept coloring me up as I went.
It was kinda forced. They kept stopping the action and saying to hand in the chips (at one point my pockets were stuffed with greens) and colored me up to black and eventually purple.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 23rd, 2022 at 11:47:59 AM
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My incentive for cashing chips without identifying myself is simply to get some cash from winning chips without having my credit line temp closed. At most casinos in Vegas cashing out five grand or more often results in temp closure (3 - 7 days) of the credit line.
As far as coloring up, all dealers and pit bosses will ask you to color up when you leave the table. (They will go beyond mentioning it, they will insist if you refuse, but no one is going to send security after you if you don't color up and just walk away. However if your goal is to not attract attention I suppose you will have to make a choice between ending up with larger chips or making a big deal of not coloring up.)
If I am planning to cash out some of them, I simply retain those chips I wish to cash out and don't color those up, but in my world not coloring up means retaining some at the purple and yellow level. I'll just tell the pit bosses straight out that "I need these because I want to cash them" and the pit bosses know me and what I am doing, and let it slide.
Over all, the coloring up is so that the table retains some semblance of what it looked like before you arrived, without gaping holes of missing smaller denomination chips. This coloring up helps the pit boss both keep track of what you won (if playing rated) and what the table needs for a fill.
Then at the cage, as far as cashing purple or yellow chips without presenting a player card (which again, trying to avoid that because if my account shows cashing out over something like five grand in a short period of time, they will want to temp close my line), the limit at the majors on the Strip for cashing out without identifying yourself seems to be anywhere from 1500 - 2500. 3000 is that hazy zone where half the time a player card will be requested, and half the time not. Beyond 3000, virtually guaranteed you will need to identify yourself.
And it also depends on what kind of chips - at some of the majors some of the cashiers have told me that a player card is needed to cash any Bacc chips. (But that just depends on the cashier - some cashiers say that, others do not.) At one of the majors on the Strip, all Bacc chips must be cashed only at the inside high limit cage inside that Baccarat pit, with identification required for all denominations, even a single black chip.
Some of the majors have more than one cage, in which case I might cash a couple thousand under the radar at one cage, then go to their other cage and do the same. If I am with someone I trust, I might give that person some chips to cash too.
I always wonder about the "lower your mask [if you are wearing one] for the camera" deal at the cage as to whether they are really doing anything with that photo, or just retaining it in case there is some major issue.
Move off the Strip to smaller casinos, and you might find that anything above a purple chip cashing requires identifying yourself.
Whenever I am trying to cash out and my player card is requested, I might just say that I forgot it and leave, or I might just go ahead and cash out and not worry about it, as long as I am staying under that five grand or so cash out total. So that right there tells you that if your goal at the cage is to not present ID, just don't make a big deal out of it, say you forgot it, and walk away - nothing will happen if the request for ID was just routine.
By the way, the question posed at the cage is always "Do you have your player card" not "Do you have your ID." So, claiming to have forgotten your player card isn't such a big thing, while walking around with no ID at all might seem odd.
As far as coloring up, all dealers and pit bosses will ask you to color up when you leave the table. (They will go beyond mentioning it, they will insist if you refuse, but no one is going to send security after you if you don't color up and just walk away. However if your goal is to not attract attention I suppose you will have to make a choice between ending up with larger chips or making a big deal of not coloring up.)
If I am planning to cash out some of them, I simply retain those chips I wish to cash out and don't color those up, but in my world not coloring up means retaining some at the purple and yellow level. I'll just tell the pit bosses straight out that "I need these because I want to cash them" and the pit bosses know me and what I am doing, and let it slide.
Over all, the coloring up is so that the table retains some semblance of what it looked like before you arrived, without gaping holes of missing smaller denomination chips. This coloring up helps the pit boss both keep track of what you won (if playing rated) and what the table needs for a fill.
Then at the cage, as far as cashing purple or yellow chips without presenting a player card (which again, trying to avoid that because if my account shows cashing out over something like five grand in a short period of time, they will want to temp close my line), the limit at the majors on the Strip for cashing out without identifying yourself seems to be anywhere from 1500 - 2500. 3000 is that hazy zone where half the time a player card will be requested, and half the time not. Beyond 3000, virtually guaranteed you will need to identify yourself.
And it also depends on what kind of chips - at some of the majors some of the cashiers have told me that a player card is needed to cash any Bacc chips. (But that just depends on the cashier - some cashiers say that, others do not.) At one of the majors on the Strip, all Bacc chips must be cashed only at the inside high limit cage inside that Baccarat pit, with identification required for all denominations, even a single black chip.
Some of the majors have more than one cage, in which case I might cash a couple thousand under the radar at one cage, then go to their other cage and do the same. If I am with someone I trust, I might give that person some chips to cash too.
I always wonder about the "lower your mask [if you are wearing one] for the camera" deal at the cage as to whether they are really doing anything with that photo, or just retaining it in case there is some major issue.
Move off the Strip to smaller casinos, and you might find that anything above a purple chip cashing requires identifying yourself.
Whenever I am trying to cash out and my player card is requested, I might just say that I forgot it and leave, or I might just go ahead and cash out and not worry about it, as long as I am staying under that five grand or so cash out total. So that right there tells you that if your goal at the cage is to not present ID, just don't make a big deal out of it, say you forgot it, and walk away - nothing will happen if the request for ID was just routine.
By the way, the question posed at the cage is always "Do you have your player card" not "Do you have your ID." So, claiming to have forgotten your player card isn't such a big thing, while walking around with no ID at all might seem odd.
Last edited by: MDawg on Aug 23, 2022
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
August 23rd, 2022 at 6:25:35 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: SOOPOOThe only thing I can answer is about a ‘forced color up’. When done playing, I pick up my chips and leave the table. Not sure how I could be forced to color up.
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It happened to me when I had a winning roulette streak and I was raising until I was betting $2000 a spin.
The dealer and pit boss kept coloring me up as I went.
It was kinda forced. They kept stopping the action and saying to hand in the chips (at one point my pockets were stuffed with greens) and colored me up to black and eventually purple.
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No offence but... why the hell were you playing $2000 a spin on a 5.26% House edge game. You're handing the casino $100 every spin. Why just why
August 23rd, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: SOOPOOThe only thing I can answer is about a ‘forced color up’. When done playing, I pick up my chips and leave the table. Not sure how I could be forced to color up.
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It happened to me when I had a winning roulette streak and I was raising until I was betting $2000 a spin.
The dealer and pit boss kept coloring me up as I went.
It was kinda forced. They kept stopping the action and saying to hand in the chips (at one point my pockets were stuffed with greens) and colored me up to black and eventually purple.
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In theor defense, table fills slow down their rounds per hour.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
August 23rd, 2022 at 9:06:06 PM
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Quote: VladPutinQuote: darkozQuote: SOOPOOThe only thing I can answer is about a ‘forced color up’. When done playing, I pick up my chips and leave the table. Not sure how I could be forced to color up.
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It happened to me when I had a winning roulette streak and I was raising until I was betting $2000 a spin.
The dealer and pit boss kept coloring me up as I went.
It was kinda forced. They kept stopping the action and saying to hand in the chips (at one point my pockets were stuffed with greens) and colored me up to black and eventually purple.
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No offence but... why the hell were you playing $2000 a spin on a 5.26% House edge game. You're handing the casino $100 every spin. Why just why
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I had played for a calendar and at that property was handed nothing but $100 use it once table vouchers. Twice per week.
First time I lost.
Second time I lost
Third time I lost
Fourth time(so literally after two weeks of this one spin freebet) I was flustered as I hadn't recouped one penny and when I finally won off the freebet, I decided to see if I could parlay that into recouping my initial losses to get the calendar.
I didn't expect to get so lucky. I hit a streak of reds and after pulling back on a few later bets was soon doing $2000 a spin. And didn't put one dime up (not counting the initial play to get the calendar.
I not only recouped my investment but was offered a free trip to Vegas. The host called me personally.
Lots of fun back then. This is circa 2014.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 23rd, 2022 at 10:03:45 PM
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Different casinos will have different rules and policies on when and who they ID.
I have never seen anyone refuse to provide an ID and be allowed to play.
I have never seen anyone refuse to provide an ID and be allowed to play.
August 25th, 2022 at 4:52:19 AM
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I have seen it at smaller casinos. Most of the time its on the lower limit tables though.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
August 27th, 2022 at 11:27:01 PM
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Quote: MDawg
By the way, the question posed at the cage is always "Do you have your player card" not "Do you have your ID." So, claiming to have forgotten your player card isn't such a big thing, while walking around with no ID at all might seem odd.
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Last time I was at a Penn casino, the cage asked "Can I see your ID or players card", I went to the cashier 5 times, 3 different cashiers, and all the same "ID or card" question.
August 28th, 2022 at 3:01:48 AM
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Cage workers at Red Rock recently started asking for ID even for small transactions. And small includes cashing out less than $100 in chips.
If you wear a mask they also ask that you drop the mask for a few seconds.
This is new.
If you wear a mask they also ask that you drop the mask for a few seconds.
This is new.
August 28th, 2022 at 6:51:21 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonCage workers at Red Rock recently started asking for ID even for small transactions. And small includes cashing out less than $100 in chips.
If you wear a mask they also ask that you drop the mask for a few seconds.
This is new.
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Surely you have the right to refuse lowering/taking off your mask? For health reasons *cough*
(More like, what legal basis do they have to force you to drop your mask)
August 28th, 2022 at 7:06:30 PM
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Quote: IWannaBeAPQuote: AlanMendelsonCage workers at Red Rock recently started asking for ID even for small transactions. And small includes cashing out less than $100 in chips.
If you wear a mask they also ask that you drop the mask for a few seconds.
This is new.
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Surely you have the right to refuse lowering/taking off your mask? For health reasons *cough*
(More like, what legal basis do they have to force you to drop your mask)
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Masks are no longer required in Nevada. And this request to drop masks came after the mask mandate was dropped.
I don't know what would happen if you refused to drop your mask.
August 28th, 2022 at 7:11:32 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: IWannaBeAPQuote: AlanMendelsonCage workers at Red Rock recently started asking for ID even for small transactions. And small includes cashing out less than $100 in chips.
If you wear a mask they also ask that you drop the mask for a few seconds.
This is new.
link to original post
Surely you have the right to refuse lowering/taking off your mask? For health reasons *cough*
(More like, what legal basis do they have to force you to drop your mask)
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Masks are no longer required in Nevada. And this request to drop masks came after the mask mandate was dropped.
I don't know what would happen if you refused to drop your mask.
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If your goal is to be a forgettable face out of thousands, picking a fight with the cage staff about refusing to be photographed probably isn't going to further your goals.
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 28th, 2022 at 8:22:29 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOThe only thing I can answer is about a ‘forced color up’. When done playing, I pick up my chips and leave the table. Not sure how I could be forced to color up.
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When you refuse to color up it causes the Staff to do 4 or 5 times the fills than if you do color up. If playing regularly at a casino, they'll remember you and it will most likely cost you in comps and/or rating points. Why purposely make people's job harder?
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
August 29th, 2022 at 9:39:55 AM
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So what you’re saying is that you will be rated inaccurately if casino personnel don’t like you. Sounds about right.Quote: Zcore13Quote: SOOPOOThe only thing I can answer is about a ‘forced color up’. When done playing, I pick up my chips and leave the table. Not sure how I could be forced to color up.
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When you refuse to color up it causes the Staff to do 4 or 5 times the fills than if you do color up. If playing regularly at a casino, they'll remember you and it will most likely cost you in comps and/or rating points. Why purposely make people's job harder?
ZCore13
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Happy days are here again
August 29th, 2022 at 10:22:15 AM
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Quote: HunterhillSo what you’re saying is that you will be rated inaccurately if casino personnel don’t like you. Sounds about right.Quote: Zcore13Quote: SOOPOOThe only thing I can answer is about a ‘forced color up’. When done playing, I pick up my chips and leave the table. Not sure how I could be forced to color up.
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When you refuse to color up it causes the Staff to do 4 or 5 times the fills than if you do color up. If playing regularly at a casino, they'll remember you and it will most likely cost you in comps and/or rating points. Why purposely make people's job harder?
ZCore13
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Yes, when you purposely cause troubles for the staff, you could lose judgement call benefits. Discretionary comps (not specifically earned, but just given out), average bet amount and other things are based on the judgement of the Supervisors. When someone refuses to color up when asked, ratholes chips in an attempt to hide them or causes issues with other players, dealers or servers, why would they get any favors or benefit of the doubt?
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
August 29th, 2022 at 10:33:07 AM
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From what SooPoo has posted, he tries to rathole a chip during his session because he believes that showing that he lost, lost more or won less, is going to get him more comps. As I have posted, comps are issued at the end of the trip based on 10% of actual loss, or 35-40% of theoretical loss, whichever is greater, so a minuscule movement in the minus direction is not going to achieve more comps unless that movement is great enough so that it creates a greater sum @ 10% of loss versus 35-40% of theo. In other words, you practically have to be playing just a few hands such that you generate almost no theo for a movement of one measly chip to benefit your comps.
And then, if the goal is to record that you walked away from the table with less chips, then why not color up? SooPoo's action there seems to contradict his ratholing a chip, because I'd think he'd want the pit boss to know exactly what he walked with. If he ratholes a chip and disappears from the table before anyone records what he has, then his whole sleight of hand trick has little chance of being recorded to his (supposed) benefit.
Now, I play private tables these days and the rack is minutely counted before and after I leave, so there is no way even a tiny chip will not be recorded as my having won or lost it, so I could stick all the chips I wanted in my pocket, openly or secretly, and the final session results would still be exactly correct, but when I have played public high limit tables the pit bosses are very meticulous about counting the rack at least whenever a new player leaves, so again, it's not clear that ratholing chips is even going to throw off a player's win/loss session report, at least not at a high limit table.
Lower limit tables maybe they don't care to count the rack as frequently, but again, as ZCore13 alludes, not coloring up at the end might guarantee that the pit boss will have to just guess what happened with that player, and given that he made the pit boss' job harder, why would the pit boss estimate high versus low for that player's action?
And then, if the goal is to record that you walked away from the table with less chips, then why not color up? SooPoo's action there seems to contradict his ratholing a chip, because I'd think he'd want the pit boss to know exactly what he walked with. If he ratholes a chip and disappears from the table before anyone records what he has, then his whole sleight of hand trick has little chance of being recorded to his (supposed) benefit.
Now, I play private tables these days and the rack is minutely counted before and after I leave, so there is no way even a tiny chip will not be recorded as my having won or lost it, so I could stick all the chips I wanted in my pocket, openly or secretly, and the final session results would still be exactly correct, but when I have played public high limit tables the pit bosses are very meticulous about counting the rack at least whenever a new player leaves, so again, it's not clear that ratholing chips is even going to throw off a player's win/loss session report, at least not at a high limit table.
Lower limit tables maybe they don't care to count the rack as frequently, but again, as ZCore13 alludes, not coloring up at the end might guarantee that the pit boss will have to just guess what happened with that player, and given that he made the pit boss' job harder, why would the pit boss estimate high versus low for that player's action?
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
August 29th, 2022 at 10:43:16 AM
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Mdawg please allow for the possibility that different casino apply comps than the way it is done with you.
I'm familiar with all sorts of different comp formulas, sometimes within the same company but at different properties... and sometimes at the SAME PROPERTY but from different people.
I'm familiar with all sorts of different comp formulas, sometimes within the same company but at different properties... and sometimes at the SAME PROPERTY but from different people.
August 29th, 2022 at 11:21:33 AM
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Not asking for favors but I have known floors who purposely give players a lower rating than they deserve or in the old days just rip up the rating card and throw it in the trash.Quote: Zcore13Quote: HunterhillSo what you’re saying is that you will be rated inaccurately if casino personnel don’t like you. Sounds about right.Quote: Zcore13Quote: SOOPOOThe only thing I can answer is about a ‘forced color up’. When done playing, I pick up my chips and leave the table. Not sure how I could be forced to color up.
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When you refuse to color up it causes the Staff to do 4 or 5 times the fills than if you do color up. If playing regularly at a casino, they'll remember you and it will most likely cost you in comps and/or rating points. Why purposely make people's job harder?
ZCore13
link to original post
link to original post
Yes, when you purposely cause troubles for the staff, you could lose judgement call benefits. Discretionary comps (not specifically earned, but just given out), average bet amount and other things are based on the judgement of the Supervisors. When someone refuses to color up when asked, ratholes chips in an attempt to hide them or causes issues with other players, dealers or servers, why would they get any favors or benefit of the doubt?
ZCore13
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I usually go out of my way to help the staff as it’s beneficial to be liked. I guess my point is even if the player is a jerk he should still get rated accurately.
Happy days are here again
August 29th, 2022 at 11:32:21 AM
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Quote: HunterhillI guess my point is even if the player is a jerk he should still get rated accurately.
That should be true in all areas of life, but we know it is not.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 29th, 2022 at 12:39:31 PM
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I color up approximately 99% of the time I have chips that can be colored up.
I 'rathole chips' less than 20% of the time. I 'know' that low level comps for a guppy like me are based on theo, but I just think that showing a loss is better than showing a win. If I am wrong it costs me nothing. If I am right I gain something.
i am NEVER rude or condescending or difficult for the dealer/pit boss. I'm usually quite chatty with all of them. Once they are aware that I'm an anesthesiologist I am usually answering a bunch of their questions!
I have walked away from a table just grabbing my chips (would almost NEVER be more than $500 total) to run to meet wifey at restaurant, or her parents at a specific place/time. Depending on how busy the table/pit is, what is happening with the other hands at my table, it could be over 3 minutes to color up. My chips, my time, my decision.
I 'rathole chips' less than 20% of the time. I 'know' that low level comps for a guppy like me are based on theo, but I just think that showing a loss is better than showing a win. If I am wrong it costs me nothing. If I am right I gain something.
i am NEVER rude or condescending or difficult for the dealer/pit boss. I'm usually quite chatty with all of them. Once they are aware that I'm an anesthesiologist I am usually answering a bunch of their questions!
I have walked away from a table just grabbing my chips (would almost NEVER be more than $500 total) to run to meet wifey at restaurant, or her parents at a specific place/time. Depending on how busy the table/pit is, what is happening with the other hands at my table, it could be over 3 minutes to color up. My chips, my time, my decision.
August 29th, 2022 at 12:43:01 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOOnce they are aware that I'm an anesthesiologist I am usually answering a bunch of their questions!
Why do I lose my sense of taste after having been administered Propofol?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 29th, 2022 at 12:50:56 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: SOOPOOOnce they are aware that I'm an anesthesiologist I am usually answering a bunch of their questions!
Why do I lose my sense of taste after having been administered Propofol?
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It is a quite rare complication. And no one really knows. It occurs with quite a variety of different classes of medications, not just anesthetics.
Depending on what type of surgery, and what specific type of anesthetic, you might have had either an endotracheal tube or laryngeal mask airway stuffed in your mouth / down your throat during the procedure. Sore throat is quite common, with possible 'taste' changes as well.
August 29th, 2022 at 1:21:30 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOQuote: DRichQuote: SOOPOOOnce they are aware that I'm an anesthesiologist I am usually answering a bunch of their questions!
Why do I lose my sense of taste after having been administered Propofol?
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It is a quite rare complication. And no one really knows. It occurs with quite a variety of different classes of medications, not just anesthetics.
Depending on what type of surgery, and what specific type of anesthetic, you might have had either an endotracheal tube or laryngeal mask airway stuffed in your mouth / down your throat during the procedure. Sore throat is quite common, with possible 'taste' changes as well.
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With my 25 surgeries I have had absolutely many types of anesthetic. I have only noticed the symptom on two occasions where I know Propofol was used. Obviously, it may have been used on other procedures and I wasn't aware of it. Now I always ask the Anesthesiologist which mixture of drugs I will be receiving.
It seems like the usual ones are Rocuronium, Fentanyl, Propofol, Midazolam, and Succinylcholine .
Sorry, end of hijack.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 29th, 2022 at 3:03:35 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOI color up approximately 99% of the time I have chips that can be colored up.
I 'rathole chips' less than 20% of the time. I 'know' that low level comps for a guppy like me are based on theo, but I just think that showing a loss is better than showing a win. If I am wrong it costs me nothing. If I am right I gain something.
i am NEVER rude or condescending or difficult for the dealer/pit boss. I'm usually quite chatty with all of them. Once they are aware that I'm an anesthesiologist I am usually answering a bunch of their questions!
I have walked away from a table just grabbing my chips (would almost NEVER be more than $500 total) to run to meet wifey at restaurant, or her parents at a specific place/time. Depending on how busy the table/pit is, what is happening with the other hands at my table, it could be over 3 minutes to color up. My chips, my time, my decision.
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Perhaps you feel like you're getting away with something, and that thrill is what drives you to repeat the same behavior. Why not - same concept behind getting something for nothing and feeling good over it, I can relate.
But seriously, if your ratholing a single chip (a black chip?) is swinging you from plus to minus, there is no way it is making any difference in your comps. So you lost eighty bucks instead of winning twenty? 10% of -$80. is a whopping $8. in comps - if you're not earning more theo than that per session, you're not getting much if any comps at all.
And that is assuming the pit boss doesn't realize that you took something off the table.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
August 29th, 2022 at 3:27:48 PM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: SOOPOOI color up approximately 99% of the time I have chips that can be colored up.
I 'rathole chips' less than 20% of the time. I 'know' that low level comps for a guppy like me are based on theo, but I just think that showing a loss is better than showing a win. If I am wrong it costs me nothing. If I am right I gain something.
i am NEVER rude or condescending or difficult for the dealer/pit boss. I'm usually quite chatty with all of them. Once they are aware that I'm an anesthesiologist I am usually answering a bunch of their questions!
I have walked away from a table just grabbing my chips (would almost NEVER be more than $500 total) to run to meet wifey at restaurant, or her parents at a specific place/time. Depending on how busy the table/pit is, what is happening with the other hands at my table, it could be over 3 minutes to color up. My chips, my time, my decision.
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Perhaps you feel like you're getting away with something, and that thrill is what drives you to repeat the same behavior. Why not - same concept behind getting something for nothing and feeling good over it, I can relate.
But seriously, if your ratholing a single chip (a black chip?) is swinging you from plus to minus, there is no way it is making any difference in your comps. So you lost eighty bucks instead of winning twenty? 10% of -$80. is a whopping $8. in comps - if you're not earning more theo than that per session, you're not getting much if any comps at all.
And that is assuming the pit boss doesn't realize that you took something off the table.
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Something like that! As I said, I like to walk away a ‘loser’ and that will get me $10 in free play next visit instead of $5….. Just as it hard for most of us to imagine betting $10k on a single hand of baccarat, you can’t imagine the thrill of a $50 win that was the RESULT of outthinking the casino.
I just had a sports bet offer of +300. Found the other side at -275. Limit was $50 on the +300. I think I locked in a win of around $5 after including the ‘points’ I also earned. I LOVE that I can do that. That’s one espresso that I don’t have to pay for….
August 29th, 2022 at 4:02:10 PM
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The satisfaction of getting something for nothing doesn't necessarily correlate to the derived dollar amount. But, I think that sort of satisfaction comes more to those who don't need it than to those who do.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
August 29th, 2022 at 4:14:27 PM
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Quote: MDawgThe satisfaction of getting something for nothing doesn't necessarily correlate to the derived dollar amount. But, I think that sort of satisfaction comes more to those who don't need it than to those who do.
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I've witnessed strange "dollars" saved.
I know someone who brags about spending max price for designer clothes because she only rocks the best.
This same person brags how she saved thirty cents purchasing hot soda instead of a cold 2 liter.
And even more strange, this person doesn't get the irony of it.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 29th, 2022 at 4:29:24 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: MDawgThe satisfaction of getting something for nothing doesn't necessarily correlate to the derived dollar amount. But, I think that sort of satisfaction comes more to those who don't need it than to those who do.
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I've witnessed strange "dollars" saved.
I know someone who brags about spending max price for designer clothes because she only rocks the best.
This same person brags how she saved thirty cents purchasing hot soda instead of a cold 2 liter.
And even more strange, this person doesn't get the irony of it.
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I am the guy that will save $0.10 by buying the generic Macaroni & Cheese over the Kraft but I don't give a damn when I lose $1000 playing a positive game.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 29th, 2022 at 5:47:56 PM
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Quote: DRich
I am the guy that will save $0.10 by buying the generic Macaroni & Cheese over the Kraft but I don't give a damn when I lose $1000 playing a positive game.
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Gosh... I'd like to know why you're losing a thou at a positive game.
August 29th, 2022 at 5:57:26 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: DRich
I am the guy that will save $0.10 by buying the generic Macaroni & Cheese over the Kraft but I don't give a damn when I lose $1000 playing a positive game.
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Gosh... I'd like to know why you're losing a thou at a positive game.
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AP mentality!
If the game is positive it's guaranteed you will be an OVERALL winner but there may be losing days to variance.
And yet you don't get worried because the overall is positive.
The confidence of knowing you will win it back makes you just shrug your shoulders when you lose.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 29th, 2022 at 6:10:15 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: DRich
I am the guy that will save $0.10 by buying the generic Macaroni & Cheese over the Kraft but I don't give a damn when I lose $1000 playing a positive game.
link to original post
Gosh... I'd like to know why you're losing a thou at a positive game.
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AP mentality!
If the game is positive it's guaranteed you will be an OVERALL winner but there may be losing days to variance.
And yet you don't get worried because the overall is positive.
The confidence of knowing you will win it back makes you just shrug your shoulders when you lose.
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When do you start wondering if it isnt positive like you thought it was?
In other words, how many losing sessions do you tolerate before you realize that Penn was right when he said Vegas was built on bad math?
August 29th, 2022 at 6:46:01 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: DRich
I am the guy that will save $0.10 by buying the generic Macaroni & Cheese over the Kraft but I don't give a damn when I lose $1000 playing a positive game.
link to original post
Gosh... I'd like to know why you're losing a thou at a positive game.
link to original post
AP mentality!
If the game is positive it's guaranteed you will be an OVERALL winner but there may be losing days to variance.
And yet you don't get worried because the overall is positive.
The confidence of knowing you will win it back makes you just shrug your shoulders when you lose.
link to original post
When do you start wondering if it isnt positive like you thought it was?
In other words, how many losing sessions do you tolerate before you realize that Penn was right when he said Vegas was built on bad math?
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I'm sure all AP's have a doubting section of their career.
I have been doing it for ten years now. Everything I own and all my money came from AP.
At that stage you know the math is sound
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 29th, 2022 at 7:14:15 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: DRich
I am the guy that will save $0.10 by buying the generic Macaroni & Cheese over the Kraft but I don't give a damn when I lose $1000 playing a positive game.
link to original post
Gosh... I'd like to know why you're losing a thou at a positive game.
link to original post
AP mentality!
If the game is positive it's guaranteed you will be an OVERALL winner but there may be losing days to variance.
And yet you don't get worried because the overall is positive.
The confidence of knowing you will win it back makes you just shrug your shoulders when you lose.
link to original post
When do you start wondering if it isnt positive like you thought it was?
In other words, how many losing sessions do you tolerate before you realize that Penn was right when he said Vegas was built on bad math?
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Just like any business owner, an AP should always be doing self evaluation to see if they are operating correctly. Certain AP moves are very easy to analyze, others more difficult. I’m sure there have been times DarkOz miscalculated the amount of needed negative EV play needed to generate some free play, and he learned from it. Etc…. When the pizza shop owner offered $1 slices figuring he’d make up for the low price with the high priced soda, but found out he didn’t, he didn’t stop making pizza. He adjusted the price of the pizza.
September 13th, 2022 at 8:27:05 AM
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did you solve your problem? I also got this problem
September 13th, 2022 at 8:50:43 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelson[
When do you start wondering if it isnt positive like you thought it was?
In other words, how many losing sessions do you tolerate before you realize that Penn was right when he said Vegas was built on bad math?
It depends on the opportunity and the amount of work you have put in to solving it. I used to play a lot of $50 a hand video poker and put hundreds of hours into studying the game and the promotions. When I would go into a long Royal drought it would of course frustrate me but I didn't question the math or the games based on losing $100k when I have put tens of millions of dollars through them.
If it was a new game that I was just learning the leash would be a lot shorter.
Edit: BTW, on this video poker game most sessions would be losers. In the end you just need the few winning sessions to profit more than the losses from the losing sessions. Each Royal was $50k so a single Royal could compensate for many losing sessions.
Last edited by: DRich on Sep 13, 2022
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
September 13th, 2022 at 10:37:39 AM
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My suggestion: do any type of advantage play OTHER than card counting. I made a video explaining my reasons here:Quote: IWannaBeAPI'm new to card counting, and am gradually start to get a hang of it.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
September 13th, 2022 at 12:19:40 PM
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ID requirements do vary, at least in different states viz. tribal casinos.
Ilani, a tribal joint north of Portland in Washington state, has the most onerous of all ID requirements upon entry after 8:00 PM: not only must you remove your ID and hand it to them, they them copy of it with a hand held device which obviously they retain for future use..
I argued, asking why they need to check and copy my ID?
"To make sure you're of legal age. It's a state requirement."
"BS" I retorted; "I am retired, look at me: no way could I possibly be under 21."
No avail: either proffer the ID for them to copy, or leave.
Clearly this is for more than simple age verification: hello, nefarious circumvention of privacy...
But when I go to Chinook Winds and Spirit Mtn. in Oregon I never have to show ID to enter, night or day.
WTF?
Ilani, a tribal joint north of Portland in Washington state, has the most onerous of all ID requirements upon entry after 8:00 PM: not only must you remove your ID and hand it to them, they them copy of it with a hand held device which obviously they retain for future use..
I argued, asking why they need to check and copy my ID?
"To make sure you're of legal age. It's a state requirement."
"BS" I retorted; "I am retired, look at me: no way could I possibly be under 21."
No avail: either proffer the ID for them to copy, or leave.
Clearly this is for more than simple age verification: hello, nefarious circumvention of privacy...
But when I go to Chinook Winds and Spirit Mtn. in Oregon I never have to show ID to enter, night or day.
WTF?
"What, me worry?"
September 13th, 2022 at 12:52:58 PM
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Quote: MrVID requirements do vary, at least in different states viz. tribal casinos.
Ilani, a tribal joint north of Portland in Washington state, has the most onerous of all ID requirements upon entry after 8:00 PM: not only must you remove your ID and hand it to them, they them copy of it with a hand held device which obviously they retain for future use..
I argued, asking why they need to check and copy my ID?
"To make sure you're of legal age. It's a state requirement."
"BS" I retorted; "I am retired, look at me: no way could I possibly be under 21."
No avail: either proffer the ID for them to copy, or leave.
Clearly this is for more than simple age verification: hello, nefarious circumvention of privacy...
But when I go to Chinook Winds and Spirit Mtn. in Oregon I never have to show ID to enter, night or day.
WTF?
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Veridocs Is the worst. Someone should show ID then walk past security when they refuse to let you in if you don’t scan. Hopefully this escalates to them getting physical then we have a case.
September 13th, 2022 at 12:55:06 PM
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Most people fail at AP and card counting. This video is a perfect example.
September 14th, 2022 at 11:16:51 AM
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I reached out to an exec at Ilani casino about their policy of scanning ID after eight at night.
He said they only do it to confirm age, and only scan the ID to confirm it is not fake.
He said they don't keep the ID info in their database.
He said they only do it to confirm age, and only scan the ID to confirm it is not fake.
He said they don't keep the ID info in their database.
"What, me worry?"
September 14th, 2022 at 11:33:03 AM
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Quote: MrVI reached out to an exec at Ilani casino about their policy of scanning ID after eight at night.
He said they only do it to confirm age, and only scan the ID to confirm it is not fake.
He said they don't keep the ID info in their database.
link to original post
If it's a legal requirement you should be able to Google it.
The after 8pm part has the ring of truth only because if it was an anti-AP move, the AP's would just show up before 8pm.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
September 14th, 2022 at 7:13:59 PM
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This is the kind of stuff that makes many of us believe you are trolling AP's and the forum in general.Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: DRich
I am the guy that will save $0.10 by buying the generic Macaroni & Cheese over the Kraft but I don't give a damn when I lose $1000 playing a positive game.
link to original post
Gosh... I'd like to know why you're losing a thou at a positive game.
link to original post
You know damn well AP's and Advantage plays are subject to variance.
It all depends on what kind of Advantage play you are on. some plays you are all but guaranteed to make money, and for some plays, you are going most definitely lose, unless you hit some significant longshot along the way.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 15th, 2022 at 5:24:22 PM
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1) You can't do anything about this other than the old "forgot my phone" type trick. Basically give your ID, walk 3 steps in, then pat your pockets and go "ahhh crap forgot my phone be right back..." Go to your car, sit for 10 seconds, walk back in... I've literally never had a security ask for my ID again. What this does it it shows you leaving. "Most" places they track you door to door. Some places will track you in the parking lot, but only on their property. If you're at a place like that you can circle the block once to show your car leaving the property. Then when you go in it's like not getting ID'd at all.
2) I'd refuse the forced purple and complain that they give you crap at the cage for them so you don't want them. OR... simply take the purple to another table and break it down there for blacks/greens by playing only 1 or two hands... or do this near the end of your session and dump the purple chips before cashing out.
3) Clearly you're at a sweaty casino, so sorry the best advice is probably to play somewhere else, but I understand that's not always an option for some people/weekend warriors/etc. I would recommend you always keep your cashout below $1000 then. If you have to go back several times in 1 trip or 1 day or 1 weekend to cash out multiple smaller times then so be it, this would be a way around getting asked for ID though. The only other thing I'm NOT recommending you could do would be to contact gaming prematurely and ask them what the limit for ID is. Spoiler alert it's $10,000... thus if you cash out $3k and they say "ID please!" you can simply just say "No, just cash me out." They'll argue with you, you may or may not have to call gaming, but I promise you if you hold your ground you'll get cashed out without having to show your ID. The reason I do NOT recommend this is because you'll become a super memorable face after that altercation, thus making it counter productive... but if you could get one of your non counting friends to make this racket, perhaps it could get them to change their internal policy to a higher number, like $2500 at most casinos I've played at.
FYI: The reason most pro's don't ever give ID has more to do with their long term AP career and not blackjack. If you burn your name and get in the databases playing red chip 1% edge blackjack you'll really be kicking yourself in the pants when you find out about the many other 10%+ advantage plays that are also available in most casinos... that you can no longer play/earn at due to your name being bad from earning $15/hr in blackjack =/.
2) I'd refuse the forced purple and complain that they give you crap at the cage for them so you don't want them. OR... simply take the purple to another table and break it down there for blacks/greens by playing only 1 or two hands... or do this near the end of your session and dump the purple chips before cashing out.
3) Clearly you're at a sweaty casino, so sorry the best advice is probably to play somewhere else, but I understand that's not always an option for some people/weekend warriors/etc. I would recommend you always keep your cashout below $1000 then. If you have to go back several times in 1 trip or 1 day or 1 weekend to cash out multiple smaller times then so be it, this would be a way around getting asked for ID though. The only other thing I'm NOT recommending you could do would be to contact gaming prematurely and ask them what the limit for ID is. Spoiler alert it's $10,000... thus if you cash out $3k and they say "ID please!" you can simply just say "No, just cash me out." They'll argue with you, you may or may not have to call gaming, but I promise you if you hold your ground you'll get cashed out without having to show your ID. The reason I do NOT recommend this is because you'll become a super memorable face after that altercation, thus making it counter productive... but if you could get one of your non counting friends to make this racket, perhaps it could get them to change their internal policy to a higher number, like $2500 at most casinos I've played at.
FYI: The reason most pro's don't ever give ID has more to do with their long term AP career and not blackjack. If you burn your name and get in the databases playing red chip 1% edge blackjack you'll really be kicking yourself in the pants when you find out about the many other 10%+ advantage plays that are also available in most casinos... that you can no longer play/earn at due to your name being bad from earning $15/hr in blackjack =/.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
September 15th, 2022 at 5:55:41 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: MrVI reached out to an exec at Ilani casino about their policy of scanning ID after eight at night.
He said they only do it to confirm age, and only scan the ID to confirm it is not fake.
He said they don't keep the ID info in their database.
link to original post
If it's a legal requirement you should be able to Google it.
The after 8pm part has the ring of truth only because if it was an anti-AP move, the AP's would just show up before 8pm.
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Its not a legal requirement (at least not in most cities), many bars/restaurants do the same (usually after 8-10pm), once it hits a certain time, its easier just for 100% checks at the door since after a certain time most people go there for a specific activity (and that way bartenders don't have to check for each drink). Its a policy not a law (and if people disagree with it, they can not enter), there is no law that they must cite to do 100% ID checks.
