charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 1951
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February 8th, 2019 at 5:15:35 AM permalink
Quote: Switch

...The dilemma is that on one hand you want to offer high odds for the extreme outcomes BUT, in order to do that, there has to be a high % of ties to cater for that...

A very interesting idea that, on a lucky day, you can win a big multiple.

The main feature I can see is that when all four dice show cats everyone wins. So unlike some poker games the casino is taking a bigger risk. With most of those usually only one person can get the large payout (with the Royal Flush). However there was a poker game ( http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/pokertwowaytexasholdem.html ) and I can remember when the dealer got quads everyone got paid out 25 to 1 (I never saw one of the higher payouts).

Mathematically you can devise a payout with fewer ties if you add a second cat to one of the die. A payout of 0 1 2 3 100 is 98.148%.

Another idea, which I like, is to keep the higher payout (sadly 73+ is over book) but introduce a 50% chance of winning with no cats. Another way is to use the dice, for example having another symbol on each and if any one of those appears you get paid if no cats. Sadly as getting another symbol is more likely than 50%, a high payout of 25 is very close if using 1 2 5 25 (I'm guessing because you mentioned 10 you'd already thought of this!)
96.834%ChancesPays
No symbols
19.753%
0
No cats
28.472%
1
1 cat
38.580%
1
2 cats
11.574%
2
3 cats
1.543%
3
4 cats
0.077%
25
jackmagic777
Joined: Jan 11, 2019
• Posts: 161
February 8th, 2019 at 10:26:55 AM permalink
I think BBB and WIZ might be wrong. I have a casual memory of reading a post by MISSION 146 on another forum that in WV Blackjack EGT's issued W2G as a slot, but were treated as table games in other ways I have a vivid memory of PA legislature ruling that SHFL stadium BJ was to be classified as a table game. IN PA slots are taxed at 54% and table games at 16 percent. Logic being that table games would be labor intensive and create more jobs. Of course casino management might still decide to issue a W2G , withould taxes, etc. Who decides , IRS or PA. ??? Anybody really know ? IN SHFL verson there is a live dealer ! I forget name od young lady from SHFL who spoke at PA GAMING board.
But i do remember her name was not Roger Snow. Seriously do PA casinos issue W2G on SHFL stadium blackjack ???
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 21483
February 8th, 2019 at 11:03:31 AM permalink
I am 99.54% sure that a machine that has no human component, like Organic Roulette or Shoot to Win (usually known as "Bubble Craps") follow slot rules for W2-G purposes. However, exactly where the line is drawn between "table game" and "slot," I am not sure. My best guess is if there is a human being dealing the cards, even if the player is pressing buttons, then it's a table game, but on that, I'm not sure.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
jackmagic777
Joined: Jan 11, 2019
• Posts: 161
February 8th, 2019 at 1:19:10 PM permalink
I am unsure also. I THINK a casino could decide to treat an ETG as a table game under those circumstances. It would be to their benefit.
You can not gamble back any withholding. LOL If Pacman was still here, he might know the answer.
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
• Posts: 549
February 8th, 2019 at 4:47:29 PM permalink
I don't think it makes too much difference for the dealer assist games I see in Vegas. Mostly Blackjack or Baccarat, and mostly played at low enough limits to make tax reporting a moot point.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 21483
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February 8th, 2019 at 5:00:23 PM permalink
First, please another look at my Lucky Cat page. I just added a basic strategy and finished off some other details.

I just spoke with a Caesars executive about the W2G question. First, he wasn't sure, and said that other issues may play into it. For example, in Maryland the gaming taxes are different between table games and slots. I can't give a specific quote, but he suggested the policies may vary from state to state, depending on other state laws, like the Maryland one, despite the W2G rules being a federal thing.

That said, he thought the rule of thumb was that if the outcome was determined by real cards or dice, then it's a table game. If they are electronic representations of such things, where the outcome is ultimately determined by a RNG, then it's a "slot machine."

This would make for a good Ask the Wizard question, so I welcome any evidence on the topic. It would be nice to have a law or statute to quote.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
• Posts: 549
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February 8th, 2019 at 8:10:28 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

First, please another look at my Lucky Cat page. I just added a basic strategy and finished off some other details.

I just spoke with a Caesars executive about the W2G question. First, he wasn't sure, and said that other issues may play into it. For example, in Maryland the gaming taxes are different between table games and slots. I can't give a specific quote, but he suggested the policies may vary from state to state, depending on other state laws, like the Maryland one, despite the W2G rules being a federal thing.

That said, he thought the rule of thumb was that if the outcome was determined by real cards or dice, then it's a table game. If they are electronic representations of such things, where the outcome is ultimately determined by a RNG, then it's a "slot machine."

This would make for a good Ask the Wizard question, so I welcome any evidence on the topic. It would be nice to have a law or statute to quote.

The stadium games with a live dealer and live cards but players betting virtually from terminals are treated as Table Games in Nevada. The "bubble craps" and games like that are treated as slot machines.
Last edited by: FCBLComish on Feb 8, 2019
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 21483
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February 9th, 2019 at 5:26:48 AM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

The stadium games with a live dealer and live cards but players betting virtually from terminals are treated as Table Games in Nevada. The "bubble craps" and games like that are treated as slot machines.

That is consistent with what I wrote.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
• Posts: 1626
February 9th, 2019 at 5:57:43 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

That is consistent with what I wrote.

Bubble craps is determined by a real die though, right? Unlike ecraps.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
jackmagic777
Joined: Jan 11, 2019