cwazy
cwazy
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August 1st, 2017 at 8:46:05 AM permalink
You can signal when you are done putting the chips out. The reason I brought this up is because this is exactly what happened to me inadvertently. I put my chips out and then as I was moving my hand over my chips to signal split, the dealer, who was not paying attention, flipped up a double card on my split. That card happened to help me, and I hadn't even had a chance to signal.

I was not suggesting that you put the chips out and just refuse to signal, then wait for a card to come out, and protest in whatever way helps you because you didn't signal (though rereading my post, I guess you could interpret it that way - I meant don't signal before/while putting your chips out). I would find that unethical at best. But if the dealer is not paying attention, a brief (even 1/2 second) pause after putting the chips out may be enough for this situation to arise. I didn't pause at all in this case, though I think a minor pause should 100% acceptable by even the most ardent casino defender. It's not our fault that casinos are pushing dealers to get out 400+ hands per hour. Mistakes can and will happen at that speed.

Re: Don Johnson, I was referring to his comment that he makes 1 bet per hour from dealer mistakes. It doesn't matter how much the bets are, 1 bet per hour is 1 bet per hour. I was searching for the ways in which he might have....as the title of this post carefully stated...maximized the odds of dealer mistakes (I purposely did not say "cause" them).

Quote: Romes

Maybe PaiGowDan did in fact get some good points in (among others I disagree with)... I'm a fan of taking advantage of dealer mistakes, 100%. I'm not a fan of CAUSING them to happen. If you directly cause a mistake in the game, that's cheating. Now if you're just chatting a ton with a fast dealer, that's not cheating, but just I guess a dick move since your intent is to use that conversation to purposefully mess the dealer up, not to just have a conversation.

Don Johnson was/is playing on a level 99.99% of the members here have not and will never play on, where those mistakes mean HUGE money. Purposefully not signaling when doubling or splitting is just a dick move, and against the rules I believe as they always tell you to signal properly for the cameras. So you can 'claim' you "forgot" but if you didn't really and you do this frequently, I'd 100% call you out for it at the tables because you're wasting time when there of course comes the inevitable issue of 5-5 getting a 6 and you stating "No I wanted to split!" I'd look right at the PB and just say "he's been trying to do this since he sat down... cause confusion to try to game the system." Then the PB would tell you if you don't signal you're gone, rightfully so.

Last edited by: cwazy on Aug 1, 2017
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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August 1st, 2017 at 10:33:07 AM permalink
Since PaiGowDan's memory has been invoked into this discussion, I thought I'd share what Dan has said to me on a similar subject, as well as what I believe he'd say about this thread's topic.

I believe Dan would say that doing anything, with the intention of encouraging dealer mistakes, would be cheating. While it may be hard to prove in court, it could certainly get you barred from that casino and blacklisted.

But even if you do nothing to provoke the dealer mistake, Dan believed that keeping the proceeds of a mistake is wrong as well:

At my first G2E, several Wizard of Vegas members had dinner together followed by group gambling. Dan wasn't with us. At one point, the dealer accidentally paid me when I should have pushed. The other WoV members who were with me looked at each other, and knowing what Dan would say, we simultaneously said, "Don't tell Dan."

I eventually did tell Dan. He initially laughed, then told me why I was wrong. He said, 'You’re just gonna lose it again in a few minutes, so why make a fuss, right? So it's your plan to be a loser? Why not just do the right thing and be a winner?" It's hard to argue with logic like that.

So, when you're out there, faced with a decision like that, remember Dan, and be a winner.

Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
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August 1st, 2017 at 2:45:22 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Since PaiGowDan's memory has been invoked into this discussion, I thought I'd share what Dan has said to me on a similar subject, as well as what I believe he'd say about this thread's topic.

I believe Dan would say that doing anything, with the intention of encouraging dealer mistakes, would be cheating. While it may be hard to prove in court, it could certainly get you barred from that casino and blacklisted.

But even if you do nothing to provoke the dealer mistake, Dan believed that keeping the proceeds of a mistake is wrong as well:

At my first G2E, several Wizard of Vegas members had dinner together followed by group gambling. Dan wasn't with us. At one point, the dealer accidentally paid me when I should have pushed. The other WoV members who were with me looked at each other, and knowing what Dan would say, we simultaneously said, "Don't tell Dan."

I eventually did tell Dan. He initially laughed, then told me why I was wrong. He said, 'You’re just gonna lose it again in a few minutes, so why make a fuss, right? So it's your plan to be a loser? Why not just do the right thing and be a winner?" It's hard to argue with logic like that.

So, when you're out there, faced with a decision like that, remember Dan, and be a winner.


Good story. While I think Dan's opinions on AP were extreme (suggesting that card counting is cheating is ridiculous), I think his input here was valuable as a window into the thought process of casino's.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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August 1st, 2017 at 3:30:29 PM permalink
Quote: cwazy

3) Don't signal for double or split when placing bets for them. Just put it out there, and if a mistake occurs, argue for the most advantageous outcome.



I have to say for the record that I view this as beyond advantage play and within the category of cheating. It is the type of shot taking play I certainly don't approve of. It's one thing to take the benefit of a dealer error but quite another to cause it. Just to be above reproach, I always make it clear what I want to do if there could be any doubt. For example, if doubling on 5-5, I will put out the extra bet and hold up a finger to mean "one" as in "one card." If surrendering, which recreational players almost never do, I'll make the surrender symbol and verbally add "surrender." Many dealers will incorrectly interpret the hand signal only as a hit, probably because they could go days without seeing anybody surrender.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
cwazy
cwazy
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August 1st, 2017 at 3:32:59 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I have to say for the record that I view this as beyond advantage play and within the category of cheating. It is the type of shot taking play I certainly don't approve of. It's one thing to take the benefit of a dealer error but quite another to cause it. Just to be above reproach, I always make it clear what I want to do if there could be any doubt. For example, if doubling on 5-5, I will put out the extra bet and hold up a finger to mean "one" as in "one card." If surrendering, which recreational players almost never do, I'll make the surrender symbol and verbally add "surrender." Many dealers will incorrectly interpret the hand signal only as a hit, probably because they could go days without seeing anybody surrender.



Again, as I replied to Romes:

You can signal when you are done putting the chips out. The reason I brought this up is because this is exactly what happened to me inadvertently. I put my chips out and then as I was moving my hand over my chips to signal split, the dealer, who was not paying attention, flipped up a double card on my split. That card happened to help me, and I hadn't even had a chance to signal.

I was not suggesting that you put the chips out and just refuse to signal, then wait for a card to come out, and protest in whatever way helps you because you didn't signal (though rereading my post, I guess you could interpret it that way - I meant don't signal before/while putting your chips out). I would find that unethical at best. But if the dealer is not paying attention, a brief (even 1/2 second) pause after putting the chips out may be enough for this situation to arise. I didn't pause at all in this case, though I think a minor pause should 100% acceptable by even the most ardent casino defender. It's not our fault that casinos are pushing dealers to get out 400+ hands per hour. Mistakes can and will happen at that speed.
gordonm888
gordonm888 
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Thanks for this post from:
cwazy
August 1st, 2017 at 7:15:33 PM permalink
cwazy: This is one of the most interesting threads in weeks, so please don't feel defensive about starting this conversation or about your experience.

Everyone is free to have their opinions about morality and to state their opinions in a post, don't let it bother you. I know many people who believe that it is immoral to gamble. So what? There will always be some people who are church-ladys and others who are cut-throat opportunists.
mamat
mamat
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August 1st, 2017 at 8:37:33 PM permalink
Quote: cwazy

I put my chips out and then as I was moving my hand over my chips to signal split, the dealer, who was not paying attention, flipped up a double card on my split.

I hit hard 18 with 3 for 21 (not in tournament). Dealer drew to 20.

...I had my hand in the air for the pit boss as soon I saw the card coming, but saw a 3 in mid-air, and pulled my hand down quick.
It wasn't deliberate. I had signaled for split (9, 9).
OnceDear
OnceDear
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August 2nd, 2017 at 1:41:11 AM permalink
Quote: cwazy

I didn't pause at all in this case, though I think a minor pause should 100% acceptable. . .. It's not our fault that casinos are pushing dealers to get out 400+ hands per hour. Mistakes can and will happen at that speed.


There's one dealer at my local gaff, who doesn't only deal fast, but routinely preempts my decision because he knows I'll play proper Basic Strategy.
That annoys the hell out of me because it means that I might as well not be there. So, for him I deliberately slow him down by saying 'hang on let me think' on even the most obvious hands. Maybe saying that I might double or split with my 6-6 against his 8 etc. I still go on to play correctly, but I feel justified in disrupting his flow.
Now, his haste and his reaction to my disruption, does mean that I sometimes get a peek at the next card that he has already drawn out and is left swinging in the air. I don't disrupt him as a means to get to see that card, but equally I don't feel any guilt at that situation. He's slowly learning not to be such a prick when I'm at the table.

Incidentally, at this UK gaff, verbal instructions over-ride or replace hand signals ( Told by experienced dealer and confirmed by the pit boss ) Those verbal signals can be a bit casual such as 'another' or just 'card'. There is often some confusion where players say 'stick' instead of 'stand' which can be misheard as 'hit'
Embrace the Variance Good news: I was once at a lifetime Blackjack Profit of £18K Bad News: Gravity prevailed.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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August 2nd, 2017 at 6:52:47 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

... Incidentally, at this UK gaff, verbal instructions over-ride or replace hand signals ( Told by experienced dealer and confirmed by the pit boss )

Shocking. The primary reason for hand signals is to avoid confusion and for surveillance....
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
OnceDear
OnceDear
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August 2nd, 2017 at 7:59:33 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Shocking. The primary reason for hand signals is to avoid confusion and for surveillance....


I suppose so. I don't know if all UK casinos ( of which most are in this Grosvenor chain ) have the same policy. But grosvenor tell us how to indicate our play in a series of videos. Half the people who play at this gaff do not even know that hand signals exist, let alone use them properly. That was a surprise to me when I joined, eager to show that I knew the ropes.
Maybe it is the smallness of the gaff. Even the London Casinos seldom have more than a handful of games and I guess that you could fit ALL the uk gaffs into one floor of one Vegas casino.

Checking. . .
Grosvenor Casinos Tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHWqgAc_qmw
Quote: Grosvenor Casino YouTube channel


@2:52 "You can either say 'hit' or tap the table."
@3:00 "You say 'stand' or no more cards" NO MENTION OF A STAND SIGNAL!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVl_2XtlWMk
Quote: Grosvenor Casino YouTube channel


"@ 1:14 If you want to split, just say to the dealer 'I'll split'" IN THE EXAMPLE THEY SPLIT 9s AGAINST A 7 !!!!!

Embrace the Variance Good news: I was once at a lifetime Blackjack Profit of £18K Bad News: Gravity prevailed.

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