BJ Matchplay strategy changes

I know BJ is not the perfect game to play matchplays, but I like BlackJack so I use them for this game, giving up EV.

I could not find rules for playing the hands:

Double UP:
Usually you can only double up the amount you bet and not the matchplay. How should this affect strategy:

Split:
I am not sure how splitting is handled by the casinos. If I have a 25$ matchplay and I split hand, can I bet 50 or just 25 on the second hand and how would that influence strategy?

Is there any other situation where a strategy change is necessary when playing a matchplay coupon?

Hey wernerw,

Double Up... You should stick to basic strategy (or deviations if you're counting) regardless of using a match play or not. The idea is that basic strategy is the best decision that will return the MOST to the player in the long run. Thus it doesn't matter if you're betting $15, $30, or $15 + $15 match play... The correct decision to double is the correct decision according to basic strategy.

Splitting... Same goes for splitting as doubling for strategy. As far as the bet amount the casinos look at your "total bet." So if you play 1 hand of $25 + $25 match play, then your total bet for the round is $50. Thus, if you want to split, you'll have to put up another $50 to split the next hand, and $50 to double after split, or $50 more to again re-split. This is fantastic though... Because the VAST majority of the time Splits & Doubles are VERY +EV for the player. So think about it... You only had to wager $25 but now on EVERY Split & Double (which is to your advantage) you're GETTING to bet $50 each (again, with an advantage). It's great when you use FP or MP and get tons of splits and doubles =).

The only time off the top of my head that strategy would change would be pending your goal for the match play coupon. Do you want a guaranteed $X, losing EV in the process, or do you want to play the MP for maximum value, etc?

I know you stated you understand, but make sure you understand your casino rules for MP. Some casinos I've been to if you bet $25 + $25 match play and hit a blackjack, they ONLY pay EVEN MONEY on the match play and pay 3/2 on the blackjack. This is certainly -EV. Now, some casinos pay $75 (3/2 on the whole bet) then take the coupon, so it depends from shop to shop. Typically with FP/MP that ONLY pays even money you'll want to put it on something with a lower edge... Because when blackjack pays even money the house edge soars up another 2.27%, quite often bringing the total house edge close to 3%! You'd be far better off betting it on a line bet in craps (1.39% DP or 1.41% Pass) or even Baccarat (1.06% banker or 1.24% player).

Quote: Romes

Hey wernerw,

I know you stated you understand, but make sure you understand your casino rules for MP. Some casinos I've been to if you bet $25 + $25 match play and hit a blackjack, they ONLY pay EVEN MONEY on the match play and pay 3/2 on the blackjack. This is certainly -EV. Now, some casinos pay $75 (3/2 on the whole bet) then take the coupon, so it depends from shop to shop. Typically with FP/MP that ONLY pays even money you'll want to put it on something with a lower edge... Because when blackjack pays even money the house edge soars up another 2.27%, quite often bringing the total house edge close to 3%! You'd be far better off betting it on a line bet in craps (1.39% DP or 1.41% Pass) or even Baccarat (1.06% banker or 1.24% player).

Romes is mostly correct here, but one point that may be worth clarifying is that while banker is the lower house edge play in baccarat under normal circumstances, when using a match play you will actually get greater utility by betting player if given the option. The tie bet is even more profitable, but I've yet to see a casino allowing this. With match plays, you generally want to try to maximize volatility.

Quote: houyi

Romes is mostly correct here, but one point that may be worth clarifying is that while banker is the lower house edge play in baccarat under normal circumstances, when using a match play you will actually get greater utility by betting player if given the option. The tie bet is even more profitable, but I've yet to see a casino allowing this. With match plays, you generally want to try to maximize volatility.

Literally played my last FP on the Player in Baccarat =). If one were to get a copy of Beyond Counting JG gives a really good breakdown of all the different types of FP, MP, etc.

Quote: Romes

Double Up... You should stick to basic strategy (or deviations if you're counting) regardless of using a match play or not. The idea is that basic strategy is the best decision that will return the MOST to the player in the long run. Thus it doesn't matter if you're betting $15, $30, or $15 + $15 match play... The correct decision to double is the correct decision according to basic strategy.
.

I'm not a blackjack theoretician by any means, but I think this is incorrect --- at least some of the time.

Double up basic strategy rules are aimed at being mathematically correct if your new bet is exactly the same as your old bet.

But with a $25 match play coupon where (at at least some casinos) you double with a full-valued $25 chip, this is more akin to tripling up (assuming the match play coupon is worth approximately half face value) than it is to doubling up.

Why would you assume that the basic strategy rules for doubling and splitting (based on putting out an equal value bet) would necessarily be identical to basic strategy where you could put out a double value bet?

And whatever counting system you are using, it seems like some of the index numbers could change as well. I assume this is in the literature somewhere but I am not a student of blackjack literature.

I'd be intrigued to know the number of blackjack players that know and deploy the proper deviations for match play triple bets. Also this will vary from shop to shop. I've played places that only let you split/double the original amount as well as places that allow you to split/double for the "full amount" of the wager (match play included). There are some other circumstances that go in to the full evaluation, but in the long run of things it will be much easier to just stick to basic strategy as the EV from these one time use match plays (less pushes or dealer forgets to take them)... in my opinion. I'd be willing to wager that the 'majority' (51%) of professional and self-proclaimed card counters alike don't even know full basic strategy, let alone full basic strategy for H17 vs S17. For the first year or so myself I didn't bother looking up the S17 rules because all of the games around me were H17, so when I came on a S17 game I used H17 basic before looking it up later.

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/beyondcouponsbjfo.pdf


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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/beyondcouponsbjfo.pdf


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Great link IBYA. Forgot about that beyond coupons post. Admittedly I don't know the coupon deviations, though I rarely if ever play my FP/MP on blackjack.

Quote: Romes

I know you stated you understand, but make sure you understand your casino rules for MP. Some casinos I've been to if you bet $25 + $25 match play and hit a blackjack, they ONLY pay EVEN MONEY on the match play and pay 3/2 on the blackjack. This is certainly -EV.

?????

Even losing 2.27%, that would only move it from an EV of ~+49% to an EV of ~+47%. That's unquestionably +EV. Better than most roulette and only costs you about 75-cents compared to craps.

Unless it's printed on the coupon, these casino rules are usually just dealer or pit rules and the results could be different at another time or table. With $5 coupons I would let an even money blackjack slide, just making sure to not tip. With $25 I would question it. When you have a coupon and $25 chip out there and it's time to split or double, just slide out another two green chips. The dealer will almost always accept it. If basic strategy tells you to split 8s, try just sliding one green chip out there and the dealer may accept it.

Best reason to use coupons at blackjack, especially double deck, is because you get to see cards. If a lot of little ones come out, keep playing. If not, walk away. A couple places I can load up with multiple coupons and it's like they're paying me to count through the decks.

It's -EV from the maximum you could be getting out of the MP ticket... Clearly any kind of "free" money is +EV over not having a ticket. With that methodology why don't you sell me your $100 MP ticket for $5 real cash? After all, that's +EV to have an extra $5, right?

Quote: TomG

...Best reason to use coupons at blackjack, especially double deck, is because you get to see cards. If a lot of little ones come out, keep playing. If not, walk away. A couple places I can load up with multiple coupons and it's like they're paying me to count through the decks.

So let's say you see a TC of +3 in an 'average' .5% HE blackjack game... That would make the play game ~1% in the players edge, IF HE WERE to get paid 3/2 on blackjacks... but with the MP he's not, which adds another 2.27% to the HE and you're still (even at TC +3) up against a ~1.27% HE, where you could get a lower HE on baccarat still and this is after watching the cards on a game that many of players have been known to be backed off or kicked out on. K.I.S.S. you can get the majority bang for your buck plopping it down on the player in Baccarat or a line bet in Craps.

I usually use matchplays to see the 1st hand of single-deck (even 6:5). Unless at El Cortez where "wonging" is good for one hand.

Sometimes on the don't in craps.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

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Browse the forum on occasion, but had to register just to ask this question. Hello everyone.

Just got my ACG book for the year so I'm flush with match coupons. My wife and I always both get a book and always both play the coupons. Is there an advantage to playing bank and player or playing pass/don't pass in craps? On the same roll/hand, of course. There is always the tie/12 push problem here, but that's inherent in the player/pass line bet too.

Quote: razmaspaz

Just got my ACG book for the year so I'm flush with match coupons. My wife and I always both get a book and always both play the coupons. Is there an advantage to playing bank and player or playing pass/don't pass in craps? On the same roll/hand, of course. There is always the tie/12 push problem here, but that's inherent in the player/pass line bet too.

Hello. Playing opposite coupons may not be allowed in some casinos (or may just depend on the pit boss, croupier, etc...)

Sometimes a friend & I would do a $150-200 matchplay on baccarat by walking to opposite sides of table (after buying chips somewhere else; $300 on one side, $150 + $150 matchplay on other side - adjusted by commission.

Playing coupons on both pass & don't pass on craps might be too obvious, and disallowed. You can bet a little on 12 if u want insurance.

Same with roulette. You can bet a little on 0/00.

----
Sometimes if people win $1,000-5,000 in promo chips, they want to cash the chips with minimal variance.
Bacarrat often disallows betting promo chips on both player & banker.

Quote: mamat

Hello. Playing opposite coupons may not be allowed in some casinos (or may just depend on the pit boss, croupier, etc...)

It is interesting that this would be specifically disallowed, as I assume that both of us playing the match on player has the higher +EV, and the casino has already issued the coupons and has a "coupon long run" that we are giving up a fraction on. IOW, if every person to get the coupon did exactly what we did, the casino comes out ahead.

Quote: Romes

So let's say you see a TC of +3 in an 'average' .5% HE blackjack game... That would make the play game ~1% in the players edge, IF HE WERE to get paid 3/2 on blackjacks... but with the MP he's not, which adds another 2.27% to the HE and you're still (even at TC +3) up against a ~1.27% HE, where you could get a lower HE on baccarat still and this is after watching the cards on a game that many of players have been known to be backed off or kicked out on. K.I.S.S. you can get the majority bang for your buck plopping it down on the player in Baccarat or a line bet in Craps.

1) It's rare that a match play coupon will have "blackjack pays even money" printed on it. If it doesn't, assume you'll be paid 3-2. (Again, for $5 suck up the loss of $2.50. At $25 ask for the full value)

2) Regardless of what a blackjack pays, why are you even considering using your coupons at +3? You're only using them to count through the deck. At +3, bet as many chips as you can and save the coupon for later.

Quote: wernerw

...Is there any other situation where a strategy change is necessary when playing a matchplay coupon?

Do you lose the matchplay if there's a standoff? From the replies to doubling down I'm assuming not. However if you do, then you should consider things like the soft doubling and standing slightly earlier as seen in freeplay hands on FreeBet.

Quote: TomG

1) It's rare that a match play coupon will have "blackjack pays even money" printed on it. If it doesn't, assume you'll be paid 3-2.

Most BJ tables pay even-money on coupons. However, dealers may not pay correctly (and if you have tipped a dealer well before, they may make an "error" in your favor).

Plausible deniability for the camera/job. Dealers you tip well may (1) May pay 3/2 instead of 6/5. (2) Mispay BJs with extra chips (3) Misplay or double pay insurance (4) Double pay something if pit boss interrupts table (or some spilled drink or other commotion happens).

Coupons usually say they may not be used for "odds" bets (like BJ), which pay more than 1:1.

Quote: charliepatrick

Do you lose the matchplay if there's a standoff?

Usually coupons are "play until won or lost". However, I have seen one-use coupons very rarely (perhaps it's just pit bosses trying to be annoying).

Promo chips come in two types - "play once" & "play until dead". Have to be careful about "play once" chips & pushes.

Quote: razmaspaz

It is interesting that this would be specifically disallowed, as I assume that both of us playing the match on player has the higher +EV, and the casino has already issued the coupons and has a "coupon long run" that we are giving up a fraction on. IOW, if every person to get the coupon did exactly what we did, the casino comes out ahead.

Casinos want players who play a coupon, and continue playing.

Quote: mamat

Casinos want players who play a coupon, and continue playing.

That seems a given. I may try this with the "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" approach and just place them on the craps table. Since the dealer doesn't typically handle a pass/don't bet it might just work out. If not, no harm done.

Quote: TomG

1) It's rare that a match play coupon will have "blackjack pays even money" printed on it. If it doesn't, assume you'll be paid 3-2. (Again, for $5 suck up the loss of $2.50. At $25 ask for the full value)

I would NOT assume this. Most match plays at ANY casino I've EVER been to are all even money, regardless of the game. If that were the case why couldn't you take your ticket and play it on MS Stud and hope for a royal so you can win $50k off your $5 MP?

Quote: TomG

2) Regardless of what a blackjack pays, why are you even considering using your coupons at +3? You're only using them to count through the deck. At +3, bet as many chips as you can and save the coupon for later.

Not if BJ pays even money... that's -2.24% to the HE and makes your first TC +5 WORTHLESS. (TC +3 on a "typical" .5% game means normally the player would have a 1% edge... however with BJ paying even money the original HE is not .5, but ~-2.75%, so TC +3 is still -1.25% HE...)

Quote: Romes

Not if BJ pays even money... that's -2.24% to the HE and makes your first TC +5 WORTHLESS.

Wrong. If blackjack pays even money with a coupon, that is ~46% player edge. About 35 cents worse than craps when using $25 coupons. But at the first +5 true count we are no longer using our coupons and our bets still have a player edge of about 1.8 - 2.0%. (Which is now about $6.50 better than an equal sized bet on the craps passline, although the correct craps play to maximize profit would be to walk away).

Obviously you won't always see the round go into a positive count when using our coupons. But if we want the coupons to continue, giving up the 35-cents in value can often be more valuable. (and on the one time in 20 you are dealt a blackjack you may still be paid 3-2)

It's a 46% edge on the free "money" of the match play... Pretend it's not match play for a moment... and you were playing a game where blackjack paid even money. At TC +3, would you up your bet? Of course not, for the reasons I stated prior (HE is still negative). Free play and match play coupons always come with positive expectation because they're "free" money you can bet with... I'm not disputing that they'll have a positive expectation, but I am disputing how to get the maximum value out of them in regards to which game to play given the majority (if not all) of the FP/MP I've seen are "even money only" wagers.

Quote: Romes

Pretend it's not match play for a moment... and you were playing a game where blackjack paid even money. At TC +3, would you up your bet?

I would not. But such a game does not exist. When we sit down at a table with coupons, it becomes our choice if blackjack plays even money or 3-2. By choosing to take 3-2 payouts only at true count +2 and higher, and even money payouts at every thing else, we are maximizing the value of the coupons in a lot of cases.

But it's not our choice... It's the choice of the casino and they mark it in black & white on the coupon: "EVEN MONEY ONLY WAGERS". No matter what you do that $15 MP (for example) is only going to get paid even money on blackjack. You will never get 3/2 on that $15 (minus a dealer error that you don't correct - which you "legally" can't do with knowing.. has to be your mistake too, technically).

Here's one for you:

You get a blackjack with your match play, and the dealer has an ace. If you take even money, does the dealer instantly pay you even money on your match play? If so, you'd always want to take the even money, yeah?

Quote: Romes

But it's not our choice... .

In every casino it is absolutely, unquestionably, universally, and unconditionally the players choice as to which hands they use their coupons on and which hands and which hands they don't.

I could be wrong, I don't think coupons should be used when you are already in an advantageous situation.

Use these match plays on pass line in craps.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I could be wrong, I don't think coupons should be used when you are already in an advantageous situation.

In blackjack they can be used to help you see cards until an advantageous situation presents itself, at which point you use your own money. Despite what others may tell you, the casino doesn't decide when you must use a coupon, you get to choose.

Quote: TomG

In every casino it is absolutely, unquestionably, universally, and unconditionally the players choice as to which hands they use their coupons on and which hands and which hands they don't.

I think Romes misread your post the same way I did. I read it as "When we play a match play, we decide if it's paid 3:2 or 1:1." What you're actually saying is "On a given hand, we decide whether to play a match play, accepting the 1:1 payout, or make a standard bet, earning 3:2." Is that right?

Quote: TomG

In every casino it is absolutely, unquestionably, universally, and unconditionally the players choice as to which hands they use their coupons on and which hands and which hands they don't.

Yes, and that has no baring whatsoever on whether or not they get paid anything other than even money. If you have a coupon that says in black and white "EVEN MONEY ONLY WAGERS" then you can play it on whatever game you want, but you're only going to get Even Money and short yourself if you were supposed to get a multiple pay out (upping the house edge of the game you're playing with the coupon - even if the overall EV of the game is greater than normal because of the coupon).

Quote: Romes

Yes, and that has no baring whatsoever on whether or not they get paid anything other than even money. If you have a coupon that says in black and white "EVEN MONEY ONLY WAGERS" then you can play it on whatever game you want, but you're only going to get Even Money and short yourself if you were supposed to get a multiple pay out (upping the house edge of the game you're playing with the coupon - even if the overall EV of the game is greater than normal because of the coupon).

Read my post above yours. I think you're misunderstanding him.