RogerKint
RogerKint
Joined: Dec 5, 2011
  • Threads: 15
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October 24th, 2016 at 11:34:35 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: RogerKint

Quote: RS

3x is always optimal! You get your action down while reducing variance, the best of both worlds. Same concept applies to Mississippi Stud, where you should 2x (never 1x, not enough action. never 3x, too much variance). Need I explain why doubling for less is optimal in BJ, too?



You only double for less when getting extra info. Come onnnnnn even my cat knows that.


I prefer the rarely seen split for less:-)



Forget the illustrious 18, all you need is the shlabotnik 1: split 5s for less when getting extra info.
100% risk of ruin
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
Joined: Jul 27, 2016
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October 24th, 2016 at 12:20:59 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: RogerKint

Quote: RS

3x is always optimal! You get your action down while reducing variance, the best of both worlds. Same concept applies to Mississippi Stud, where you should 2x (never 1x, not enough action. never 3x, too much variance). Need I explain why doubling for less is optimal in BJ, too?



You only double for less when getting extra info. Come onnnnnn even my cat knows that.


I prefer the rarely seen split for less:-)



Forget the illustrious 18, all you need is the shlabotnik 1: split 5s for less when getting extra info.



Or the RogerKint Special: put words in someone's mouth and then mock them for saying those words.

It's interesting that only one of you geniuses managed to figure out why I said that a 3X raise might be appropriate IN THIS SPECIFIC CONTEXT. I of course am aware that it's not a good idea in general. But weren't we talking about a very specific situation? I know you tend to forget details like that, Roger.

Now move along...(or beat this to death, if you wish)
RogerKint
RogerKint
Joined: Dec 5, 2011
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 1850
October 24th, 2016 at 12:25:08 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Quote: RogerKint

Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: RogerKint

Quote: RS

3x is always optimal! You get your action down while reducing variance, the best of both worlds. Same concept applies to Mississippi Stud, where you should 2x (never 1x, not enough action. never 3x, too much variance). Need I explain why doubling for less is optimal in BJ, too?



You only double for less when getting extra info. Come onnnnnn even my cat knows that.


I prefer the rarely seen split for less:-)



Forget the illustrious 18, all you need is the shlabotnik 1: split 5s for less when getting extra info.



Or the RogerKint Special: put words in someone's mouth and then mock them for saying those words.

It's interesting that only one of you geniuses managed to figure out why I said that a 3X raise might be appropriate IN THIS SPECIFIC CONTEXT. I of course am aware that it's not a good idea in general. But weren't we talking about a very specific situation? I know you tend to forget details like that, Roger.

Now move along...(or beat this to death, if you wish)



I learned from the best. Show us the way, Joe.

Honestly, since you do the same to so many others on this forum, I thought you'd be cool with it and see the humor. Since I offended you, however, I'm truly sorry.
Last edited by: RogerKint on Oct 24, 2016
100% risk of ruin
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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October 24th, 2016 at 2:59:54 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Axel, Axel, you say the silliest things sometimes. You get a straight or better about once every 29 hands at DB. So aside from the small inherent advantage of the game and the points earned, you would get an extra $7 for roughly every $145 of coin-in. You're a math whiz; you figure out how much that was worth.

Edit: I am assuming from your tone that you are being sarcastic.

You definitely got me. I was absolutely being SARCASTIC. I'm definitely not a math wiz, I'm not sure what's worst my writing or math skills. Some people have some strange assumptions about AP and what it takes. I just hear blah, blah, blah. I don't even try to correct people's assumunions since they are going to argue and belive what they want to believe. I just have to roll my eyes sometimes

Perhaps I'm just a anomaly or something.

I will tell you this, with a few exeptions, the guys who are absolutely stellar at math make for bad Advantage Players. Math alone won't do sh*t for you. Savvy people get the money. The guy who I knew to be absolutely brilliant when it came to math and figuring VP and slots without a computer. This guy knew just about anything and everything you could imagine. He had been there since before VP. A was a very nice guy, fun to talk to interesting stories. If you were walking in the casino you and seen him you would think he was a homeless person. Srcraggly long beard, roll your own cigarettes, clothing that came from the savation army. Tape on his glasses
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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October 28th, 2016 at 11:11:46 AM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Axel, Axel, you say the silliest things sometimes. You get a straight or better about once every 29 hands at DB. So aside from the small inherent advantage of the game and the points earned, you would get an extra $7 for roughly every $145 of coin-in. You're a math whiz; you figure out how much that was worth.

Edit: I am assuming from your tone that you are being sarcastic.

Well, I'm definitely not a math genius, But it wasn't worth much for you considering (I'll explain why later). I'm not sure what's worse, my writing or my math skill. I think there's many misconceptions about AP and what it actually takes, especially all that dedication, discipline and you would be highly paid doing something else BS. Perhaps I'm an anomaly and seriously break the mold.

After reading what you wrote, I now understand why you seem to have such a dim view of advantage play. IMO you had 8 years of doing it wrong. And I definitely wouldn't consider the 10/7 @ the Rio a big play or anything else you mentioned. Your plays seemed to be in the mid $30 per hour. Many guys wouldn't play anything less than $50 an Hr. Especially when there were quite a few low variance, low BR plays worth up to thousands per hour. If advantage players are not finding new and interesting plays that are valuable, or if they are working for others, it can be boring, frustrating and not that lucrative.

BTW. IMO. other than a few exceptions, guys that are really stellar at math make the worst Advantage Players. Guys who are savvy, clever, creative and have AP gambling smarts are the ones who actually get the money.

Anyone can learn to play 10/7 on multiple point days and then quickly jump on that anytime the casino is giving out an extra dollar and have an advantage.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some things you say about AP seems strange and off base with only slight hints of reality.

When I asked you about your 8 year AP claim and plays, you just happen to mention that one that I posted about already http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/14752-past-great-plays-in-vp/3/#post261708.
Notice I didn't mention what I played at the Rio(that was on purpose) FYI. It's well known they had 10/7.

I Noticed in that same thread I mentioned the 4 of a kind paycheck promotion at the frontier. You just happened to write a story about that to. I believe I know that person you talked about, and it's not as it seems. That person is more of a crazy Hustler(a successful one) not really an AP and oftentimes has backing on anything with even the slightest risk. I'm almost certain that was the case at the frontier, including who actually had the approved business check account. I can't find it now, but either I or someone else wrote about getting business check approval for doing this. Something I did myself along with the pawn shop method. I actually came up with a much better) way than both methods(easier IMO. It almost always guarantees approval without having to get an account.

Again, in my same post from the link above, I mentioned Laughlin being good. I went there often, with little competition on good promos, at some point R.M. took over Laughlin, but it was still for me. Hell, My GF and I went solo in Laughlin for about a year between 2002 - 2004 while Traveling back to Vegas to check on my place, or if something better came up. You claimed something about the same female running people and burning everything out there, however that's not true I, and anyone I asked can't ever remember her there burning anything out. Perhaps one or two small plays.

The other day soon after I used the 4 to a Royal example you soon after brought up the Tuscany 4 to the Royal promo, as always with your normal negativity (again you didn't play the obvious good machines.).
-----------------------------------------------------
Of course I was being sarcastic. Given your edit I'm wondering if you only realized that after RS outed me and killed my fun with this post....
Quote: RS

Axel was actually telling me about that a week or so ago. All the "smart APs" went to the 10/7, but there was something much better right around the corner..



Isn't that just funny, what good timing? At least we know that what I'm about to say wasn't made and only said after and directed at Joeshlabotnik. Before any of this came up, having no clue he played this(I'm skeptical, but that's ok because I can conclude 1 of 2 things)

So yes, I was talking to RS (before your post). I was using the Rio play and the 10/7 as an example of why many AP's don't always think and are not that sharp. They oftentimes just know and use basic known ABC AP. That's why I always felt it's important NOT to educate and spread around TMI. It's not good to publicly talk about plays, not hand feed everyone information about what and how to play stuff. There's so many AP's that can't and don't actually figure out the good/best stuff to play themselves. Oftentimes it's monkey see, monkey do, but there's little you can do about that. Usually there's limited seats available and the casinos can only tolerate giving out so much money. It's not just the casinos hampering you, the competition is what really costs you the most amount of money.

(Obviously there are a few very sharp AP's around, so no discredit to anyone, there's always someone better, quicker, stronger and smarter)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I can usually remember plays fairly well, including who all played them, especially people who played the juicy games, I was oftentimes sitting near them especially if we couldn't lock something up. Even though it was over 20 years ago and I was very young. I remember the Rio play especially well for many reasons, some details on plays get a bit foggy, but I can even remember the names of some of the cute change girls who handed out the scratch cards(I even went on a few dates with one).

One big reason I remember it well, was the fact that it was a pivotal point for me, one where I realized a few different things. Don't follow the average(or even the better than average) AP crowd, obvious games and their ABC thinking. Even just a little bit of outside the box thinking could make the difference from a marginal play to a significant one.

The Rio was early on in my AP career.
It was very low variance and very lucrative on the right games. (after you got rolling the scratch cards totally funded the rest of the play.)
It was a nice "easy" bankroll boost for me, especially for the length of time ( less than 1 month, excluding attending the drawing).
It was very fun, especially what I played.
Was able to hire 3 non AP friends one former roommate.
I got screwed out of a bonus $20k from the casino drawing. They knew it was my ticket pulled, they said it was not legible(perhaps it was smudged) and tossed it back in.


Some details about that promotion:
The promotion was in about 1995 and 1996. It was called Cash Is King¢ (one million giveaway). It was a month long promotion during the holiday season.

Any $25 hit got you a scratch card given out by the slot employees(usually a change person). IIRC They had to write some quick informing on them.

Approximately half the cards were winners I'd say 41% - 45% (The winners were mostly $5's) I remember $5's 10's 20's 50's and the somewhat rare, but not impossible $100's. I remember someone saying they got a $200 but I never seen it. There may have been a few 1k cards as well.

I highly doubt the tickets were worth $7 (but had you played something better you would've gotten a large enough sample size to realize that. $5 each would be more like it, possibly 5.50 if you counted the drawing. People might say, but Axel, $5.00 or $7 really what's the difference? For some who played the 10/7 DB not much difference. But for some, what's thousands of scratch cards times $1 or $2, you tell me? Some people who got significantly less tickets than us said they were worth less(Not worth arguing that). I know some people who sometimes double claimed a few to make it more lucrative for themselves. I didn't participate in those shenanigans.Not to mention they caught on to that and started watching and making people play it off immediately, that worked out in my favor since we earned them so quickly. I remember one person got an ear full after being caught doing that.

You could save your winning scratch cards up and cash them at the end up the day. The losing scratch cards went into an end of the month drawing. 20k for first place and a bunch of 1k winners. Some claim 25k for first place but I'll bet them it was 20k.

They also had tickets for a Football picks contest cards they handed out for flushes.(I earned very few myself since I didn't play much VP) Many Ap's thought I was crazy for buying them. What everyone didn't know, if you turned your losing(or the even the winner) FB contest sports tickets in at the cage after sportsbook hours, some would actually scan as $2 to $10 winning sports tickets. I'm not sure how many you needed to get correct for that to happen, perhaps 6 or 7 out of 14 or whatever. I gladly bought other AP's football entries for pennies.

Axel what's your beef, Joeshl was right, it was a good play on the $1 10/7? Technically yes, but not nearly as good as a few other choices(last thing on my list). On Top of that, they slowed the machines down to one of the slowest speed possible from early on.(I thought the made them auto coin droppers as well) Anyone that has seen this slow speed knows how painfully slow that is on an old IGT VP machine.
Deal= pause..Blink............................Blink...........................Blink.....................Blink.........................Blink Hold
hold/Redraw zilch Blink............................Blink...........................Blink.....................Blink.........................Blink. Your pay back blip....blip...blip....blip....blip....bilp...blip. You couldn't possibly earn that many per hour. Some people actually gave up because of the slow speed. So unless you were playing multiple machines, pulling shenanigans and tipping well the 10/7 sucked donkey ball. Even if you did all that 10/7 wasn't great.
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

.

There may indeed have been something better under a rock nearby, but back in the day, there was always something good available. .

Actually nothing was hiding under a rock. If you were playing the $1 10/7 the good machines were directly behind you or around the back side in clear view just a few feet away. It would've been almost impossible not to notice the good machines since the change people for that section were basically parked next to the good machines handing me and my friend scratch cards one after another. The 10/7 people would oftentimes have to turn around and flag the change/slot people over away from us. The good tippers obviously got faster service, but then you're tickets were worth less. We could afford to tip significantly more than others.
The good machines were the 2 very visible upright $1 Sigma good rules BJ machines, they actually stood out because they weren't IGT and were not mixed in with other machines. Certainly much less variance than 10/7 and significant more valuable. Had they slowed them down it wouldn't have made much difference. (Sigma machines always seemed fun to play)
The machines were wide open when I arrived( I was fairly late to the party), no one else thought to play them. Some people were already on the 10/7's, including some now notable well known people.

We had the best machines going 24/7.

Also you could've played $5 9/6 JOB at the beginning. Jacks or better got you a ticket. Not to mention your own high limit room attendant( I can't remember how long that lasted but not too long ). But if you value the scratchers at $5 it's 108.64% Every 50 hands was worth $108

I also played Sneaky Queens. That was significantly better than 10/7 even if they had they slowed them down, but they never did, because only one other person I know of target them.

I even played Sigma Derby for a while and did well, but I wasn't sure how good that was.

IIRC they even had the .25 Flush attack machines as well.

There was another game far better than 10/7 (not under a rock), but I'll save that for later. Perhaps you can figure it out on the internet somewhere.

They also had some crazy multiple way, multiple coin criss cross poker.. That was under a rock, and it's the the first and last time I played or seen it.

There's a part 2, but this is long enough (sorry its so long guys/gals)
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
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October 28th, 2016 at 11:43:33 AM permalink
Tl, dr. Did tthree from BJTF just hijack Axel's account?
djatc
djatc
Joined: Jan 15, 2013
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October 28th, 2016 at 11:50:37 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Tl, dr.

"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
Romes
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
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October 28th, 2016 at 1:52:46 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Tl, dr...

Seriously Axel, you say I have long winded posts???
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
Joined: Jul 27, 2016
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October 28th, 2016 at 2:04:07 PM permalink
Well, Axel, I freely admit that I rarely if ever identified, much less played, the best games/promotions in the city or even the best ones in the casino. Back then as now, there was an opportunity cost attached to scouting. If I spent a day not playing a $30 an hour game because I was looking for one worth $35, that would have been hard to make up. Back then, $30 an hour--on my own schedule, and on my own terms--was damned good money. It still wouldn't be bad now, which is underscored by how the fleas swarm when some play worth half that much surfaces.

Also, there were times when I/we knew very well about objectively better plays but felt that they required too much bankroll risk. I knew quite a few very talented people who had busted out due to greed and/or lack of discipline. I was quite happy to not ride the fastest gravy train.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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October 28th, 2016 at 4:29:33 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Seriously Axel, you say I have long winded posts???

I knew you would bring that up. I was going to add something about you saying something but it was already to long.

Anyway....

Axel = 3 out of 11,000 long winded posts. Romes = 1000 out of 3000 long winded posts (-:
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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