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KeyserSoze
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:18:52 PM permalink
I'm at my local store last night playing blackjack with 2 other players. I'm at 1st base.

I hit a 14 and bust. Dealer takes my chips and cards.

I place more chips in the betting circle while the others 2 players finish their hands.

Eventually, dealer makes a hand. Then takes my chips again!

I said "Hey, I already lost and you took my bet and my cards."

Dealer said "You can't do that sir, that's cheating. You could go to jail for that."

I said "WHAT!!! What the hell is this? The freaking twilight zone?" (this was said in a joking fashion- no angry tone)

Dealer calls pit critter, and critter listens to her explanation, then looks at me and says "Yeah, what she said. After you lose and the dealer takes you chips & cards, you must wait until the beginning of the next round before putting more chips in the betting circle."

Anybody ever heard of such nonsense?
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see.
Ibeatyouraces
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:22:36 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Beethoven9th
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:22:52 PM permalink
Stores offer BJ now?
Fighting BS one post at a time!
wroberson
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:25:02 PM permalink
I always wait until the hand is over to replace my bet just to avoid this situation.
Buffering...
KeyserSoze
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:27:03 PM permalink
Quote: wroberson

I always wait until the hand is over to replace my bet just to avoid this situation.



Yeah, but I like to occasionally get paid when the dealer splashes the entire table with chips after busting.

Oops! I'm gonna catch hell from PaigowDan now.
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see.
wudged
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:28:18 PM permalink
Quote: wroberson

I always wait until the hand is over to replace my bet just to avoid this situation.



+1. Not to mention waiting to see how the other hands play out.
Buzzard
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:37:18 PM permalink
I usually replace my bet if I have no cards. Had the dealer busted, would he have paid you? I think not !

Hind sight is just 20-20 , but you should have stepped back from the table, leaving your chips there, and asked someone for the telephone number of gaming.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AZDuffman
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:38:04 PM permalink
Never heard of it, but it could be a policy at that house to avoid confusion.

1. If it was policy the dealer should have told you so
2. Pit Boss should have offered to run the tape and pay you back but with a stern reminder of the policy if it was one.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Buzzard
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:40:42 PM permalink
Screw policy. Was it in the posted rules?/ I doubt it.

I MEAN THE CARDS WERE ALREADY IN THE DISCARD RACK
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
1BB
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:45:12 PM permalink
Quote: KeyserSoze

I'm at my local store last night playing blackjack with 2 other players. I'm at 1st base.

I hit a 14 and bust. Dealer takes my chips and cards.

I place more chips in the betting circle while the others 2 players finish their hands.

Eventually, dealer makes a hand. Then takes my chips again!

I said "Hey, I already lost and you took my bet and my cards."

Dealer said "You can't do that sir, that's cheating. You could go to jail for that."

I said "WHAT!!! What the hell is this? The freaking twilight zone?" (this was said in a joking fashion- no angry tone)

Dealer calls pit critter, and critter listens to her explanation, then looks at me and says "Yeah, what she said. After you lose and the dealer takes you chips & cards, you must wait until the beginning of the next round before putting more chips in the betting circle."

Anybody ever heard of such nonsense?



It is nonsense and it never ceases to amaze me. The dealer makes a mistake and they turn it around and try to make it your fault. They must lie awake at night thinking these things up. Keep doing it and feel free to add a couple of chips to the total when the floor asks you how much the dealer "stole" from you because the dealer won't remember. Just kidding - maybe.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Buzzard
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:49:32 PM permalink
At last, a new advantage play posted by someone other than Teliot. LOL

"Keep doing it and feel free to add a couple of chips to the total when the floor asks you how much the dealer "stole" from you because the dealer won't remember. "
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
KeyserSoze
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November 14th, 2013 at 12:54:32 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

It is nonsense and it never ceases to amaze me. The dealer makes a mistake and they turn it around and try to make it your fault.



Yes. That's it exactly. I think the critter knew better but took the dealers side so he wouldn't embarrass her? Probably set her straight later in private?

By the way, she did return my chips. I'm just amazed at the cheating reference.

Also- (same dealer) several months ago she was opening up a table and was washing cards. I stood there since she was nearly done. She said "Move along please, you can't watch me while I'm doing this."

It's a shame that stupid isn't physically painful.
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see.
1BB
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November 14th, 2013 at 3:48:09 PM permalink
More nonsense although many casinos will not allow you to SIT at the table while the cards are washed. You are certainly allowed to watch from a distance. Some players like to verify the decks.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Paigowdan
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November 14th, 2013 at 3:51:29 PM permalink
It is a fundamental mistake. I dealt.

If there were NO CARDS at a player's position, simply do not take the player's new bet.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
petroglyph
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November 14th, 2013 at 4:03:28 PM permalink
@keysersoze

I played craps at Laughlin Sunday, the table thinned out to just a few players. The dealers were not even trying to hide they're contempt for the players.

When it got down to me and another player the dealers started chatting amongst themselves like they would if no one was playing. They seemed to be rooting for the remaining two players to lose so they wouldn't be having to make change anymore.

For the good dealers left, this real bad attitude from your fellow workers is costing you.

I am now determined to again re-evaluate my tipping. I am looking for a different casino again.
Dicenor33
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November 14th, 2013 at 4:15:42 PM permalink
Baccarat dealer tells you right away, you can't put your bets till he/she finishes the pay out. Most of the time dealers explain to players what you can and can not do.
Tomspur
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November 14th, 2013 at 4:26:13 PM permalink
It seems to me that there is a trend developing here. I have long said that the dealers in the US are simply there to punch a clock. They are not trained well, they take their job for granted and have zero idea of customer service.

Let me aslo clarify that I don't mean to tarr all the dealers with the same brush. There are some great exponents of the craps game in Vegas, maybe some who are about half as good as I was on the wheels, perhaps 3/4 my ability on a full craps game but for the most part these guys are now simply there for the money. What makes it worse is that, when they know they are not making anything for the shift anyway, they shut down and won't give you customer service to save their own lives.

When I broke in it was an honor to be a dealer. People looked up to you and if you were good, people actually tried to copy you and deal like you. There were dealing competitions, incentives for the better dealers to progress, incentives for the slower ones to catch up. Now it is simply a job where, if you show up, for the most part you earn on average about $180 a day. I would guess about 70% of the dealers are 1 or 2 game dealers..........That should say it all right there.
I heard a conversation not too long ago about dealers and where they were expected to deal. One craps dealer said..."how dare you put me on a blackjack game, I don't deal that...."
I thought it was very funny.

To answer your question Keysersoze

The house can pretty much make up any procedure they like when it comes to placing bets. They did however handle it like amateurs. They should at least give you one free pass and inform you of the procedure. For the dealer to call you a cheater or imply you could possibly be cheating is nothing short of a cheap shot.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Beethoven9th
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November 14th, 2013 at 5:42:49 PM permalink
Quote: Dicenor33

Baccarat dealer tells you right away, you can't put your bets till he/she finishes the pay out. Most of the time dealers explain to players what you can and can not do.


Baccarat is different because the players do not get dealt cards. In BJ, players who don't have any cards at the end of the hand have obviously lost their money already.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
FleaStiff
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November 14th, 2013 at 5:45:42 PM permalink
The proof is that he has already taken your cards... but why are you so impatient that you put yourself in that position.

Stupid dealer, stupid floor .... do you expect me to say "bright player"?

Needlessly replacing your money too soon.
FleaStiff
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November 14th, 2013 at 5:48:27 PM permalink
Quote: KeyserSoze


Also- (same dealer) several months ago she was opening up a table and was washing cards. I stood there since she was nearly done. She said "Move along please, you can't watch me while I'm doing this."

Hah,,,,,,, a public shuffle is the most important part.
Tomspur
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November 14th, 2013 at 5:49:22 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

The proof is that he has already taken your cards... but why are you so impatient that you put yourself in that position.

Stupid dealer, stupid floor .... do you expect me to say "bright player"?

Needlessly replacing your money too soon.



I don't really think that is the point and the fact that I agree with you makes no difference anyway. The player, in most casinos is allowed to place a bet after another has lost. It is up to the dealer to perform two tasks now.....

1) If it is against house rules, inform the guest in a nice way so that the guest doesn't make the same mistake again.
2) Know how to deal and that, if a player no longer has any cards in front of him, you more than likely have already taken his original bet.

This really isn't rocket science is it?

BTW: I hope you weren't counting and tried to pull that move. Perhaps you were going for the ultimate camoulfage.....knowing the count even before the cards were dealt? :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
beachbumbabs
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:05:00 PM permalink
So, in 2 days, we've had one rude dealer who THREW the chips back at a player who bet after the hand was collected but before the next hand was dealt, and a player who'd had his cards collected, rebet, and the dealer called him a cheater and took his chips because there were other cards still in play, and the pit supervisor had to come and straighten it out.

Seen both situations (betting pattern) countless times, haven't seen this kind of rudeness, or even the misunderstandings on the dealers' parts of what's happened. To me, it goes to bad training, bad dealing, bad house procedures, and really terrible customer service. The dealer has one chance to take a losing bet in BJ before their hand is exposed: when it loses and they pick up the cards. Very standard move. The player's only restricted from moving chips from rail to play spot while there is a hand in front of them. Silly stuff.

It wouldn't take much for survelliance these days to provide instant replay to the pit supes on the house intranet; the cams could be addressable by table and accessed by pit in a secure manner. Lots of these types of disputes could be reviewed and dealt with quickly. You can watch the kid on the nanny cam from work; why can't the pit review the action? Might not be rocket science, but thanks to rocket science, we have the technology at the tips of our fingers for nearly no cost these days.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Tomspur
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:15:33 PM permalink
It wouldn't take much for survelliance these days to provide instant replay to the pit supes on the house intranet; the cams could be addressable by table and accessed by pit in a secure manner. Lots of these types of disputes could be reviewed and dealt with quickly. You can watch the kid on the nanny cam from work; why can't the pit review the action? Might not be rocket science, but thanks to rocket science, we have the technology at the tips of our fingers for nearly no cost these days.



THe pit cannot have access to the camewras due to possible cheating, collusion or countless other issues. The camera positions and angles are a very closely guarded secret and cannot be divulged to anybody who works in the pit.

Having said that, witht he advent of digital technology, in order for the pit to get a review should take less than 45 seconds in total to do. For the pit to not pick up the phone and get a review is the real shame here. It is so easy to do and it makes everyone feel at ease......

Still, I'm afraid to report a lot of the floor personnel including dealers, floor supervisor and even pit bosses have an aversion to Surveillance.......why I have no idea. We are simply there to help and lend a supportive hand. We are NOT the enemy :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Buzzard
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:19:39 PM permalink
Still, I'm afraid to report a lot of the floor personnel including dealers, floor supervisor and even pit bosses have an aversion to Surveillance.......why I have no idea.

I do. Try invasion of privacy and someone watching every time you scratch your ass. You do spend more time watching employees than players, do you not ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Tomspur
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:25:29 PM permalink
I do. Try invasion of privacy and someone watching every time you scratch your ass. You do spend more time watching employees than players, do you not ?



Hence your Barney Fife quote to me right at the beginning of my tenure here. Unfortunately I get it now.

I nor any of my employees have any great need to watch you or anybody else scratch their asses, in fact we have way too much work to do and a very large area to cover to concentrate on any one person without good reason.

We follow the money and the action, sometimes that means we are watching employees, other times it means we watch players.

I would agree with you that it would be an invasion of privacy when you are walking down a very public street but to cry invasion in a private establishment doesn't quite make any sense to me.

Remember, and I'm only guessing here, the reason you got backed off or barred or 86'ed in the past wasn't because of Surveillance but rather because of the casino manager making the decision to drop you like its hot. We are a support structure, nothing more. We have no decision making powers.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Buzzard
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:38:23 PM permalink
Nothing personal. I know being on camera goes with the job. And that you and Face both have thankless jobs. My Barney Fife reverence is just for over zealous guys with a badge. Whole family on my Dad's side all in law enforcement. I treat anybody with a badge or uniform with respect as long as it is a two way street.

Actually never been barred or 86'd. Usually welcome because I over tip. And when jerk is mouthy to dealer, I say what the dealer can not. Hate bullies. Remind the jerk all the decisions are made on our side of the table. Always sit at third base, so I really make stupid plays and take dealer's bust card.

Worth every dollar I lose as a result. Dealers are often just sitting ducks. They can not say F*** You buddy, but I can .

See you just joined forum this year. Welcome aboard, but by now you should know better than to take me serious. Everybody else does.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Tomspur
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:43:19 PM permalink
See you just joined forum this year. Welcome aboard, but by now you should know better than to take me serious. Everybody else does.



Thank you for the welcome, I appreciate it.

It isn't really a thankless job, I do get paid LOL
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
beachbumbabs
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:45:19 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur



THe pit cannot have access to the camewras due to possible cheating, collusion or countless other issues. The camera positions and angles are a very closely guarded secret and cannot be divulged to anybody who works in the pit.

Having said that, witht he advent of digital technology, in order for the pit to get a review should take less than 45 seconds in total to do. For the pit to not pick up the phone and get a review is the real shame here. It is so easy to do and it makes everyone feel at ease......

Still, I'm afraid to report a lot of the floor personnel including dealers, floor supervisor and even pit bosses have an aversion to Surveillance.......why I have no idea. We are simply there to help and lend a supportive hand. We are NOT the enemy :)



Sorry to hear that, Tomspur, but thanks for the informed response. I dealt for a year, was a bank teller 2 years, both almost 30 years ago (not at the same time). But, while both had employee safeguards, and both involved working with large amounts of other people's money, there was a fair amount of trust in the employees' basic work ethic and honesty. It's pretty sad if bad employees are so numerous that you have to treat them all like crooks awaiting the opportunity, or even worse if surveillance treats them that way in assuming that they'll be dishonest without your oversight. I don't think I'd like dealing any more if that's how it is. You have to keep the camera angles secret? From your own pit supervisors? What are they doing in a position of authority if they can't be trusted?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:48:04 PM permalink
Quote: Buzz

See you just joined forum this year. Welcome aboard, but by now you should know better than to take me serious. Everybody else does.



Quote: Tomspur

Thank you for the welcome, I appreciate it.

It isn't really a thankless job, I do get paid LOL



Yeah, I took Buzz seriously for 5 minutes, which was 4 minutes too long, once. That Elvis impersonator at the Little Chapel o Love still gives me nightmares. But the alimony's worth it.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
penamaluru
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:54:14 PM permalink
I never came across this kind of thing. However, this situation is always in my mind ie.. dealer taking away bet which was intended for next round. This is more likely to happen with newbie dealers. Nowadays, i wait till the round is finished before placing the bet.
ClarkWGriswold
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:59:32 PM permalink
I've played in a couple casinos where the dealers carried around a small "bin" that attached to the table. It meant they PURELY went for their own tips.
However, I can see where this would cause collusion and possibly even flat-out cheating.
But, the remedy here would be to have ACTIVE surveillance as well as ACTIVE Floor people.
When you have a casino where all tips are SPLIT, no one really cares because they expect the next dealer to make up for the tips. Same goes for Surveillance and Floor staff. It just causes crappy employees because no matter good or bad service, they're making the same amount (minimum wage)
If I had it my way, I'd have all dealers replaced with electronic machines (ShuffleMaster card machines, and Aruze Shoot-to-Win)
The problem with that is the LEASING costs for those machines, as well as having to hire someone smart enough to work with a computer; Instead, they can just pay a few high-school grads minimum wage (and even get a bonus when those mimum wage earners scoop up players money that isn't paying attention)
"I am your average American gambling idiot" - Me
Tomspur
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November 14th, 2013 at 7:40:40 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Sorry to hear that, Tomspur, but thanks for the informed response. I dealt for a year, was a bank teller 2 years, both almost 30 years ago (not at the same time). But, while both had employee safeguards, and both involved working with large amounts of other people's money, there was a fair amount of trust in the employees' basic work ethic and honesty. It's pretty sad if bad employees are so numerous that you have to treat them all like crooks awaiting the opportunity, or even worse if surveillance treats them that way in assuming that they'll be dishonest without your oversight. I don't think I'd like dealing any more if that's how it is. You have to keep the camera angles secret? From your own pit supervisors? What are they doing in a position of authority if they can't be trusted?



Yeah unfortunately the people stealing these days know no colors, creeds, positions, they come from all walks of life.
We do have to be on our toes at all times as a scam or cheat can come from anywhere at any time. I have found that the most dangerous of all cheaters or collusion artists are the floor supervisors. They have more authority than a dealer but still don't make bank like pit bosses. They will more often than not be the ones you have to look out for....sad but true really.

There are many people out there in positions of power who abuse said power. How does the saying go, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"?
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
speedycrap
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November 14th, 2013 at 9:09:16 PM permalink
I have played in a lot of casinos at various games. Situation like this arises all the time. Done by me or fellow players. Every single time the dealer will call the supervisor over and explain the situation. Then say sorry to the player and return the money. No buzz, no fuss and no big deal.
Tomspur
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November 14th, 2013 at 9:18:53 PM permalink
Quote: speedycrap

I have played in a lot of casinos at various games. Situation like this arises all the time. Done by me or fellow players. Every single time the dealer will call the supervisor over and explain the situation. Then say sorry to the player and return the money. No buzz, no fuss and no big deal.



That's exactly how it should be handled, unfortunately every now and again you find the exception to the rule and it makes it onto a board like this :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Buzzard
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November 14th, 2013 at 9:26:27 PM permalink
" There are many people out there in positions of power who abuse said power." That is why Andy made Barney keep " the bullet " in his shirt pocket. And keep that pocket buttoned as well.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
EvenBob
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November 15th, 2013 at 12:38:18 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur



When I broke in it was an honor to be a dealer. People looked up to you and if you were good.



When I was going to Vegas in the 70's, there were lots of
male dealers from the 50's still working. Even in the 70's,
you rarely saw a woman dealer. Those guys took pride in
their jobs and were friendly and entertaining. They were
very loyal to the casino they worked for. I don't think
there was a lot of tip sharing yet, you made tips by doing
a good job.

Tip sharing and hiring so many non English speaking dealers
ruined Vegas. Tip sharing took the incentive out of the business,
why bother to be friendly. Vegas was a totally different place
than it is now.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FleaStiff
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November 15th, 2013 at 1:38:53 AM permalink
All the pit can get is a verbal report from Surveillance as to what surveillance can confirm... You never show the cashier the camera's view of the till. And Surveillance never indicates what it can and cannot see or what it was or was not looking at at the time.

Its the age old routine of having an employee do something wrong... if no call from surveillance is made to the Pit...that doesn't mean the Pit should be free to conclude we are not being watched right now. Surveillance tries to build a file on bad dealers, not squeal on them right away. Otherwise all employee collusion would start with a five dollar chip and if no call came, they would move to the five thousand dollar chips with confidence.

The procedures manual at all times emphasizes the fact that Surveillance should watch, bring additional cameras to bear, focus as best as possible and silently film all suspicious activity. Sporadic calls from Surveillance are made to keep the Pits on their toes. Sometimes Surveillance is alert sometimes they can't even figure out what game is being played... but at no time should dealers or floor personnel feel comfortable about whether surveillance is looking at them at any particular moment. At no time should pit personnel know what can and can not be seen. At no time should pit personnel know exactly where Surveillance is looking or what they are most alert to.

Its not necessarily that Pit Personnel are automatically suspected of collusion... its simply that just as dealers are supposed to protect their hole card, so too must supervisors and surveillance keep their cards close to their vests. Its the system. No one reveals procedures unnecessarily. Sometimes surveillance spots some red chip activity and carefully watches that deal for the entire length of his shift but never alerts the Pit.
KeyserSoze
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November 15th, 2013 at 9:10:47 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur


BTW: I hope you weren't counting and tried to pull that move. Perhaps you were going for the ultimate camoulfage.....knowing the count even before the cards were dealt? :)



Hell yeah I was counting.

You don't always need to wait to see every last card to know what the appropriate bet is going to be on the next round. Ploppies will shove their next bet in the circle before the round is complete. Often I will do the same.
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see.
Ibeatyouraces
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November 15th, 2013 at 9:13:32 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
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