"You're bastardizing basic strategy"
Thread Rating:
6deck
DAS
DOA
split non-Aces up to 4 hands
split Aces once
The two plays she overtly objected too were:
Q,2 v. dealer 4 and I hit (this did not affect the outcome of her hand at all - the table won)
and
4,3,4,5 v. dealer 10 and I stood
She said those were not basic strategy plays and I should have let her know ahead of time (firstly, I never tell people how to play or what to do with their money and I feel they should give me the same courtesy) - I informed her (quietly) that if she did some research she would see they actually are basic strategy plays (she rolled her eyes and said to the dealer "can you believe this guy?")
Comments...?
WIZARD?
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I would have split 10's the next time I had a chance and hoped that by chance she lost the hand.
ZCore13
LOL am not that dastardly but love the sentiment!
ZCore13
Quote: aceofspadesThe phrase "You're bastardizing basic strategy" was yelled at me by a middle-aged woman this weekend while I played the tables...
6deck
DAS
DOA
split non-Aces up to 4 hands
split Aces once
The two plays she overtly objected too were:
Q,2 v. dealer 4 and I hit (this did not affect the outcome of her hand at all - the table won)
and
4,3,4,5 v. dealer 10 and I stood
I informed her (quietly) that if she did some research she would see they actually are basic strategy plays (she rolled her eyes and said to the dealer "can you believe this guy?")
Comments...?
WIZARD?
A 4 card 16 (especially THAT 4 card 16, ouch!) against a face is clearly a hand to stay on.
12 against a 4 is not a BS play, though.
Quote: Ibeatyouraces10,2 vs 4 in six deck S17 is indeed a hit.
Agreed. But that play is nowhere near basic. In fact, I can't even force the WoO site to put it on any printable strategy card.
There's a world of difference between "Damn! My hand is a 16 and contains 4 cards that I'd like to have drawn next. I'd better stay against that 10" and "well, this is 10-2 and not 9-3 or 8-4, or 7-5 so I suppose I should hit it against this 4..."
Quote: 1BB1 had one this morning tell me that I should mail the casino a check if I was going to surrender.
lol! last time I got that, I managed to deadpan "what, my usual cash payments aren't good enough anymore?"
Quote: 1arrowheaddrWhenever someone asks me for advice at the table, I shrug and say "that's a tough call" or "it depends on how you feel". They don't usually ask again.
Naw, just say 'Where's that dang waitress.' They won't
bother you anymore. I write down numbers at the roulette
table and people always ask me what I'm doing. Playing
roulette, I say. They always wander away. Or they'll ask why
I'm writing stuff down and I answer "How else can I keep
track of whats happening." Idiots.
Quote: 1BB1 had one this morning tell me that I should mail the casino a check if I was going to surrender. Something about scared money. Did I mention that it was the dealer? The same one that paid me two pushes in a row with significant bets out?
From my own personal experience, I am beginning to become convinced that the single-least-qualified group of people to discuss gambling strategy is casino dealers. The ridiculous shit I hear from their mouths continues to astonish me.
Quote: sodawaterFrom my own personal experience, I am beginning to become convinced that the single-least-qualified group of people to discuss gambling strategy is casino dealers. The ridiculous shit I hear from their mouths continues to astonish me.
From my experience dealers are the worst players. OMG.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Thinking a dealer is an expert at playing the games is the same as thinking a waiter/waitress could cook you a gourmet meal. There is no correlation between the two.
ZCore13
It appears there might be a negative correlation, i.e., dealers are less likely than the general public to offer proper gambling advice. Might be a number of factors why this is the case.
To bad most players think that dealers know the right play.The newest one I heard from a dealer is, on Sp21 the dealer wins the first hand 87% of the time in regular bj they win it 83%.I have heard the 83% +or - many times but never the sp21 amount.Quote: Zcore13Thinking a dealer is an expert at playing the games is the same as thinking a waiter/waitress could cook you a gourmet meal. There is no correlation between the two.
ZCore13
Quote: sodawaterIt appears there might be a negative correlation, i.e., dealers are less likely than the general public to offer proper gambling advice. Might be a number of factors why this is the case.
There is no correlation. A dealer may be sophisticated in gaming, or he may be ignorant. Some, not a majority, of dealers know basic strategy. Few dealers or floormen can spot a counter. Surveillance can/should.
Quote: PaigowdanThere is no correlation. A dealer may be sophisticated in gaming, or he may be ignorant. Some, not a majority, of dealers know basic strategy. Few dealers or floormen can spot a counter. Surveillance can/should.
Except maybe the job of casino dealer attracts applicants who are, on average, worse at evaluating probability and statistics than the general public. Or maybe dealing 20+ hours a week for years leads to dealers only remembering the outliers and exceptional events, and they use these events as the basis for their advice. I'd say it's a combination of the two.
Quote: rdw4potusAgreed. But that play is nowhere near basic. In fact, I can't even force the WoO site to put it on any printable strategy card.
There's a world of difference between "Damn! My hand is a 16 and contains 4 cards that I'd like to have drawn next. I'd better stay against that 10" and "well, this is 10-2 and not 9-3 or 8-4, or 7-5 so I suppose I should hit it against this 4..."
It is basic strategy. Composition dependent basic strategy says hit T,2 vs 4 in a 6 deck S17 game. If 8 deck, stand.
Edit- rdw4potus, but I'm not saying you are wrong. Total dependent basic strategy says stand 12 vs 4.
Quote: aceofspadesThe phrase "You're bastardizing basic strategy" was yelled at me by a middle-aged woman this weekend while I played the tables...
6deck
DAS
DOA
split non-Aces up to 4 hands
split Aces once
The two plays she overtly objected too were:
Q,2 v. dealer 4 and I hit (this did not affect the outcome of her hand at all - the table won)
Correct basic strategy is to stand. Had you been playing a single-deck game, this would be a composition dependent exception, and you would have been right.
Quote:and
4,3,4,5 v. dealer 10 and I stood
That IS a correct composition-dependent exception, because two fours and a five are already out of the deck.
Looking at the bigger picture, as I've been saying for 15 years, bad players don't hurt anybody but themselves over the long run. So there is no justification to the "you made the table lose" argument.
Quote: WizardCorrect basic strategy is to stand. Had you been playing a single-deck game, this would be a composition dependent exception, and you would have been right.
WIZARD - I reviewed whether composition dependent would be a benefit in 6-deck on your chart - did I misinterpret it?
It seems even in a 6-deck game, with the rules I listed, there would be a benefit to play composition dependent (ever so slightly .0031%)
Quote: MakingBookIt is basic strategy. Composition dependent basic strategy says hit T,2 vs 4 in a 6 deck S17 game. If 8 deck, stand.
Edit- rdw4potus, but I'm not saying you are wrong. Total dependent basic strategy says stand 12 vs 4.
makingBook- that's what I always thought, even for 6D
However, the Wizard then stated it would be such only for 1D
Hmmmmmmm...?
Quote: rdw4potusAgreed. But that play is nowhere near basic. In fact, I can't even force the WoO site to put it on any printable strategy card.
There's a world of difference between "Damn! My hand is a 16 and contains 4 cards that I'd like to have drawn next. I'd better stay against that 10" and "well, this is 10-2 and not 9-3 or 8-4, or 7-5 so I suppose I should hit it against this 4..."
It is composition dependent basic strategy
Quote: EvenBobNaw, just say 'Where's that dang waitress.' They won't
bother you anymore. I write down numbers at the roulette
table and people always ask me what I'm doing. Playing
roulette, I say. They always wander away. Or they'll ask why
I'm writing stuff down and I answer "How else can I keep
track of whats happening." Idiots.
Or yell loudly, "SOME DOGS ARE NAMED TALMADGE!"
Quote: aceofspadesmakingBook- that's what I always thought, even for 6D
However, the Wizard then stated it would be such only for 1D
Hmmmmmmm...?
If me and the Wizard disagree, there is a damn good chance I am wrong.
But Schlesinger's strategy card says HIT 10,2 v 4; S17 6 deck.
Quote: MakingBookQuote: aceofspadesmakingBook- that's what I always thought, even for 6D
However, the Wizard then stated it would be such only for 1D
Hmmmmmmm...?
If me and the Wizard disagree, there is a damn good chance I am wrong.
But Schlesinger's strategy card says HIT 10,2 v 4; S17 6 deck.
Exactly - that is what I learned it from and the card I have.
Quote: aceofspadesOr yell loudly, "SOME DOGS ARE NAMED TALMADGE!"
The absolute best answer to any question you want
to avoid is: "I don't know, I'm only here for a
few days'. Its just makes enough sense, and is
just lucid enough, that people won't ask you twice.
Quote: MakingBookBut Schlesinger's strategy card says HIT 10,2 v 4; S17 6 deck.
I stand corrected! From my own blackjack appendix 9 for 6 decks, S17:
Stand EV = -0.211115
Hit EV = -0.210364
Double EV = -0.420729
So, hitting is better by 0.000751.
Thus far we have been discussing basic strategy however Ace is a counter so I would assume that the count would dictate the way to play that 10,2 vs 4. I believe the index number is 0 using Hi-Lo and a couple of other counts.
Quote: FleaStiffDon't do anything yourself... you were photographed with her and the dealer is liable to remember the conversation, so if it offended you sufficiently have someone else take care of the meddlesome old hag who can't keep her yap shut.
HAHA - not going to do a damn thing - I love people who try to tell me how to play but then end up asking the dealer or PB how they should play a certain hand. I was not about to get into a discussion of composition dependent basic strategy within earshot of the dealer and PB
Quote: WizardI stand corrected! From my own blackjack appendix 9 for 6 decks, S17:
Stand EV = -0.211115
Hit EV = -0.210364
Double EV = -0.420729
So, hitting is better by 0.000751.
Thanks WIZARD!!! As always, a stand-up gentleman!
thanks though
Especially 12v4 the difference in EV between Hit and Stand is miniscule.
So for a BS Player who wants occasionally to play on a 'hunch' and try his luck, these are the 2 plays he should choose to deviate form BS.
Playing these 2 plays randomly bewteen Hit and Stand should effect his EV by a miniscule amount.
I've been playing blackjack for the last few months and breaking even so far. Are there a lot of plays that would deviate from basic strategy based on card composition?
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/strategy/4-decks/
difference
10+2 v 4 hit
I'm not into karma, but if someone punched me in the face, it would make a difference.
EDIT: I've had the house burn 2 cards before the first hand.
Which is one reason casinos are able to say: you want to be the only player at the table its a 300 minimum bet.Quote: wrobersonI still say that other players effect the outcome of a hand based on whether or not they take a hit or stand.
I'm also looking at the situation through a filter of BS. It's the best way to play to have odds in your favor or a positive expected value. If it didn't matter what anyone did, there wouldn't be basic strategies.
Then there 3rd base. It's the seat card counters should be seated from some things I've read in the past. It's the seat that has the final say before the dealer finishes the hand off.
Then you have players that pop in for a single hand and end up splitting 10's to 4 hands and ending up with 4 20's.
Dealer's giving advice and telling players how to play their hand.
I've seen way to much and heard even more. (The roulette ball, "slocking" into space instead of bouncing)
Quote: wrobersonI don't like playing alone, so this rarely happens. I don't mind other players. It's their money, they can protect it any way they wish.
I'm also looking at the situation through a filter of BS. It's the best way to play to have odds in your favor or a positive expected value. If it didn't matter what anyone did, there wouldn't be basic strategies.
Then there 3rd base. It's the seat card counters should be seated from some things I've read in the past. It's the seat that has the final say before the dealer finishes the hand off.
Then you have players that pop in for a single hand and end up splitting 10's to 4 hands and ending up with 4 20's.
Dealer's giving advice and telling players how to play their hand.
I've seen way to much and heard even more. (The roulette ball, "slocking" into space instead of bouncing)
The odds are not in your favor when you use basic strategy. You will still lose. You will lose less but you will still lose. How much less depends on how strictly you adhere to basic strategy.
I like early position in blackjack.
Quote: wrobersonThat's a pretty negative view of the blackjack Universe. It's a philosophy I can not buy into. It doesn't even look good on paper.
I like early position in blackjack.
It's not a view or a philosophy, just a good old fashioned dose of reality. The top mathematicians, statisticians and other experts, including the Wizard, Wong, Don S. and Norm W. are not wrong. Playing basic strategy has a negative expectation and is ultimately a losing strategy.
